Sepulcher of the First Ones World Race

[Makabreska]

Baseless claim; Paragon itself said they do NOT have the time/money investment required to play at "that field".
So no, there are plenty of skilled players who could have beat the shit out of echo given the same assets.
And by that I also mean the WA / addon team behind them, the chefs who cook for them, etc-etc.

Also 93k dollars for liquid, yikes.

If you don't see a problem, it's on you, but claiming that this is fair is simply not true.

Their main reason of disbanding was that they were Finnish only, which drastically reduced recruitment pool. They were a tight knit group that barely had bench players.

[Tonkaden]

If it's all about gear then why havent these non top 20 guilds with higher ilevel and more 4pc tier not cleared earlier bosses?

If it's all about gear why doesn't everyone pay for splits and M+ farms?


You put far too much stock in gear and overlook player skill and mental fortitude.

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They stopped winning their division.

Your point? Winning / not winning doesnt detract / change / alter the fact that its the same team lol. Echo was Method rebranded without Sco. They are the same exact guild by and large.

On the topic at hand, Limit would be so much better if they didnt "guild culture" fuck off 24/7. Its maddening to watch them wipe wipe wipe to simple simple things after 100+ pulls cause they are memeing. I get the fact that its part of their identity, but they wont beat Echo again if they dont make changes. Im not even sure Limit stays together after this tbh.

[hzjf]

Garothi Worldbreaker Big Dumb Guild (US)05.12.2017
Felhounds of Sargeras Limit (US)05.12.2017
Portal Keeper Hasabel Limit (US)05.12.2017
Antoran High Command Limit (US)05.12.2017
Eonar the Life-Binder Limit (US)05.12.2017
Imonar the Soulhunter Limit (US)05.12.2017
Kin'garoth Limit (US)05.12.2017
Varimathras Limit (US)06.12.2017
The Coven of Shivarra Limit (US)06.12.2017
Aggramar Method (EU)06.12.2017
Argus the Unmaker Method (EU)13.12.2017

and again. they werent playing against Method at this time. getting the world first with a 16 hour headstart in a undertuned joke raid. Impressive

[Tonkaden]

It's not the same, chill

It 100% is the same. Except in this case instead of 1 player leaving the franchise, the whole team except that player left it and rebranded. Echo IS nothing but the old method squad. This is beyond contestation lol.

[AwkwardSquirtle]

They could bought a car lol

You could buy a lot of cars for the amount spent on Esports promotion. Advertising revenue makes it worthwhile even if you lose. There's no payout for getting WF.

[Tonkaden]

Forgive me, haven't bothered to read all the posts but you have been very active.

Is you argument, that a top 50 guild can easily compete with Echo or Liquid easily if they had the same ilvl and same time investment ?? So they are equal in skill lvl, from 1-50 ?

I think that while top 50 might be out there skill wise, in the top 20 , pretty much all players are about the same in terms of skill. I think it boils down to organizational skills. Would Limit / Echo be as good as they are or as far ahead as they are if they couldn't buy gear / have people feed them gear from their communities? Other guilds don't have this luxury. Youre silly if you think that the ilvl they gain from these pay-for-splits arent game changing.

I think they would still be on top, but the gap wouldnt be as big.

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and again. they werent playing against Method at this time. getting the world first with a 16 hour headstart in a undertuned joke raid. Impressive

You cant really move the goal posts though. Limit has been trying foir world firsts since Antorus. Thats not an opinion. Its fact. It just wasnt the whole RWF event type competing that there is now.

[Ghost of Cow]

On the topic at hand, Limit would be so much better if they didnt "guild culture" fuck off 24/7. Its maddening to watch them wipe wipe wipe to simple simple things after 100+ pulls cause they are memeing. I get the fact that its part of their identity, but they wont beat Echo again if they dont make changes. Im not even sure Limit stays together after this tbh.

Yeah...I definitely don't want to backseat a top guild, and I know it's their identity and all...

But damn, sometimes I just wanted to yell, "Shut up!" at the screen as they were dying to mechanics they had seen 100 times before while people were filling comms with memes and jokes, sometimes over actual callouts.

[Tonkaden]

Yeah...I definitely don't want to backseat a top guild, and I know it's their identity and all...

But damn, sometimes I just wanted to yell, "Shut up!" at the screen as they were dying to mechanics they had seen 100 times before while people were filling comms with memes and jokes.

I like watching competitive events. It doesnt matter if if its tennis, the NFL, soccer, or in this case, the world first race. It was tilted watching it unfold. You could tune into Echo see how serious they were taking it then switch over to Liquid and seee them talking about someones big slammer and doing high pitched voices like they were in junior high. I knew at that point who was going to. You could see it on Max's face as people were fucking off non stop he looked utterly defeated. There is nothing he can do about it either, other than restructuring how they function and I don't see huim doing that sadly.

[Cracked]

So I guess Liquid continues with evening raiding? I don't see them starting yet.

[Ghost of Cow]

I like watching competitive events. It doesnt matter if if its tennis, the NFL, soccer, or in this case, the world first race. It was tilted watching it unfold. You could tune into Echo see how serious they were taking it then switch over to Liquid and seee them talking about someones big slammer and doing high pitched voices like they were in junior high. I knew at that point who was going to. You could see it on Max's face as people were fucking off non stop he looked utterly defeated. There is nothing he can do about it either, other than restructuring how they function and I don't see huim doing that sadly.

Yeah, there were many occasions where Max had to repeat a call several times because people would just interrupt him with something irrelevant.

Again, I don't want people to think that I'm backseating a top guild or that I'm somehow better than them, but that can't be helpful to the raid team on a tough fight.

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If it's all about gear then why havent these non top 20 guilds with higher ilevel and more 4pc tier not cleared earlier bosses?

If it's all about gear why doesn't everyone pay for splits and M+ farms?

It's not ONLY about gear, but the gear is really fucking important.

Those guilds aren't burning out on days and days of splits or spending tens of thousands of dollars worth of gold on buying items for no reason.

[2kbooker]

Yeah, there were many occasions where Max had to repeat a call several times because people would just interrupt him with something irrelevant.

Again, I don't want people to think that I'm backseating a top guild or that I'm somehow better than them, but that can't be helpful to the raid team on a tough fight.

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It's not ONLY about gear, but the gear is really fucking important.

Those guilds aren't burning out on days and days of splits or spending tens of thousands of dollars worth of gold on buying items for no reason.

Yes.. i think overall they wasted like 30-70 Pulls with Childish Actions.. i could never Play my best with this Highschool Shit,Jokes and so on..Echo was 95% concentrated and always hungry for Progress

[micwini]

They also haven't been a thing since 2016. They were losing long before the current meta, long before teams raided at one facility with coaches and analysts.

They just got old and couldn't do it anymore, it happens. They got beat by younger and hungrier teams and bowed out. Bringing them up today is irrelevant, they never had to play at this level of competition.

It's like when people bring up Nihilum and Kungan, it's an entirely different era.

It felt really good when they snatched Mar'gok from Method in their prime. It also made for a fantastic kill video. I really miss the epic videos. The other top guilds don't really do those with epic music and some bosslines anymore.

[facefist]

That's a strawman; I never said we know who is best. The whole point is that it's extremely uncertain who is the best.

The top 50 and especially top 20 has such obscene skill in it: that whoever does splits usually has a big edge.

I guess that is something you keep telling yourself whenever you don't win - "It's possible I'm still the best even though everyone beats me, because of they might have this and that advantage". But I mean that's probably a great way to be happy and have a good self-esteem so it's actually quite clever.

[UndedoKoleda]

Tell me you dont watch sports without telling me you dont watch sports.

Tom Brady left the Patriots. The Patriots didnt stop being the Patriots lolololol.

That is very, very disrespectful to Sco.

Maybe he is to blame for the rest of the team wanting to split from him(on two different occasions, none the less), but Method reached where they are thanks to him.

As far as I know, he has been the GM of Method since their formation in Vanilla, if it wasn't for his consistency and dedication Method would have been long gone. He kept going and banging his head against the wall, working his ass off to get the guild to the top, and eventually he did. For quite a while Method were the undisputed Number 1. Echo just took over from there, but the groundwork for the success was laid by Sco, even if he was never their best player, skill wise.

[Heyimyoshyy]

I think that while top 50 might be out there skill wise, in the top 20 , pretty much all players are about the same in terms of skill. I think it boils down to organizational skills. Would Limit / Echo be as good as they are or as far ahead as they are if they couldn't buy gear / have people feed them gear from their communities? Other guilds don't have this luxury. Youre silly if you think that the ilvl they gain from these pay-for-splits arent game changing.

I think they would still be on top, but the gap wouldnt be as big.

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You cant really move the goal posts though. Limit has been trying foir world firsts since Antorus. Thats not an opinion. Its fact. It just wasnt the whole RWF event type competing that there is now.

I can say with absolute confidence, 70% of the guilds in the top 20 have never even come up with their own tacts before on live servers.

[Jdance]

After Echo won, they had an interview on the casting desk where Rogerbrown talked about benched players contributing to their Jailer strategy. I feel like this is a pretty stark difference between Echo and Limit. In general, I feel like Limit finds a strategy that "works" and are generally hesitant to change until they run into a wall and absolutely need to.

With that being said, Echo's p2 and p3 strategies were an unreal level ahead of Limits. Echo were seeing the boss transition to p3 at around 47.5% on most pulls before they started lusting phase 1, whereas Limit usually saw around 50.5% going into p3. I can't help but wonder how much individual player input was valued on Jailer positioning and uptime for Echo, whereas Limit really has an officer-driven top-down approach.

Limit had an entire group of players run out of range of the boss and healers for the final blood soak in phase 2, Echo never had this issue. Liquid had much worse movement in phase 3. Echo just made a wide range of optimizations that Limit just never did, and I feel like that was the deciding factor in this race.

Even when Echo did eventually confirm the fourth phase, and started lusting p1, Limit never made this change. Instead, opting to continue to lust phase 3 in an attempt to push through the phase with attempts rather than optimizations that I feel would have actually caused them to get through it.

Not trying to place blame here. I am generally rooting for Limit to win, just wanted to point out what I felt like the difference in this race was. Hopefully Limit can take some time off before really digging into their performance and improving for next time.

[Xath]

Then by that methodology the score is something like 6-2 as Limit and Method were racing against each other as far back as Antorus.

Limit's first actual race was Uldir and it was spur of the moment than planned.

[Heyimyoshyy]

After Echo won, they had an interview on the casting desk where Rogerbrown talked about benched players contributing to their Jailer strategy. I feel like this is a pretty stark difference between Echo and Limit. In general, I feel like Limit finds a strategy that "works" and are generally hesitant to change until they run into a wall and absolutely need to.

With that being said, Echo's p2 and p3 strategies were an unreal level ahead of Limits. Echo were seeing the boss transition to p3 at around 47.5% on most pulls before they started lusting phase 1, whereas Limit usually saw around 50.5% going into p3. I can't help but wonder how much individual player input was valued on Jailer positioning and uptime for Echo, whereas Limit really has an officer-driven top-down approach.

Limit had an entire group of players run out of range of the boss and healers for the final blood soak in phase 2, Echo never had this issue. Liquid had much worse movement in phase 3. Echo just made a wide range of optimizations that Limit just never did, and I feel like that was the deciding factor in this race.

Even when Echo did eventually confirm the fourth phase, and started lusting p1, Limit never made this change. Instead, opting to continue to lust phase 3 in an attempt to push through the phase with attempts rather than optimizations that I feel would have actually caused them to get through it.

Not trying to place blame here. I am generally rooting for Limit to win, just wanted to point out what I felt like the difference in this race was. Hopefully Limit can take some time off before really digging into their performance and improving for next time.

This is a great take and analysis tbh.

Something that was mentioned in the small sessions Scripe and Roger had with Daisy, they actually mentioned how difficult it is playing from behind, and how they may have done the same thing. Also they talked about how Scripe wanted to potentially have less time between when they end and when they start raiding. And how they realized they affect it was having on the performance of the players.

Also something not to take lightly is just how serious and dedicated Echo are. They mentioned Nnogga's twitter post where he talked about learning Web development to build an application they could use to watch clips and review pulls. He learnt that over the space of 5 months. When you are that serious and dedicated, it's going to take something more to beat them.

I get the impression during the race, Echo just takes things a lot more personal. And they use it to drive them. You can see it in Gingi's deleted tweet about Anduin, and I think Max's tweet "10/11 lets gooooo NA dps. Jailer time". In the heat of competition, espescially when you are desperate, you'll look for anything to hold on to, in a means to drive you. To everyone else it can be meaning less, but to the Echo DPS, it's something someone can reference to light a fire.

[Tyk]

After Echo won, they had an interview on the casting desk where Rogerbrown talked about benched players contributing to their Jailer strategy. I feel like this is a pretty stark difference between Echo and Limit. In general, I feel like Limit finds a strategy that "works" and are generally hesitant to change until they run into a wall and absolutely need to.

With that being said, Echo's p2 and p3 strategies were an unreal level ahead of Limits. Echo were seeing the boss transition to p3 at around 47.5% on most pulls before they started lusting phase 1, whereas Limit usually saw around 50.5% going into p3. I can't help but wonder how much individual player input was valued on Jailer positioning and uptime for Echo, whereas Limit really has an officer-driven top-down approach.

Limit had an entire group of players run out of range of the boss and healers for the final blood soak in phase 2, Echo never had this issue. Liquid had much worse movement in phase 3. Echo just made a wide range of optimizations that Limit just never did, and I feel like that was the deciding factor in this race.

Even when Echo did eventually confirm the fourth phase, and started lusting p1, Limit never made this change. Instead, opting to continue to lust phase 3 in an attempt to push through the phase with attempts rather than optimizations that I feel would have actually caused them to get through it.

Not trying to place blame here. I am generally rooting for Limit to win, just wanted to point out what I felt like the difference in this race was. Hopefully Limit can take some time off before really digging into their performance and improving for next time.

My thoughts too. Echo guys have been snatching world firsts since god knows when. They fully understand what system and approach work best.

[epigramx]

Forgive me, haven't bothered to read all the posts but you have been very active.

Is you argument, that a top 50 guild can easily compete with Echo or Liquid easily if they had the same ilvl and same time investment ?? So they are equal in skill lvl, from 1-50 ?

No. I said it's unclear at the top levels of rankings. It's inevitable that I'm right since the top guild more or less confirms it; they said a big edge they had was pushing for more and more split raids; it's very unclear if they are better than another top 10 guild for example if no gearing in mundane content with paying others with gold to give up their loot was the actual game.

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Edge over equally skilled people at the top yes, not an edge over some guild outside the top 5, let alone the top 20.

For someone who complains about logical fallacies a lot in this thread, you certainly are keen to employ your own.

A logical error is to automatically assume without question that the top 10 or 20 are so much different in skill; those are obscene levels of skill; most people who ever subscribe to this game will never see a guild above top 400 in their entire life and that's already relatively hard core for most people.

The very fact that gearing by paying others to give up their loot raises your rank - as the top guild themselves stated right after the final kill - is unequivocal proof that the ranking positions are affected by low-difficulty methods of gearing.

Not sure why any of this is contested to be honest since it's not just me saying it but the top guild too in effect.

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I guess that is something you keep telling yourself whenever you don't win - "It's possible I'm still the best even though everyone beats me, because of they might have this and that advantage". But I mean that's probably a great way to be happy and have a good self-esteem so it's actually quite clever.

That personal attack is nonsensical. I'm not even in a top 20 guild so why would I complain my supposedly 20man guild isn't 1st?

The burden of proof is on you; the top 20 guilds have an obscene level of skill; the top guild admits more splits give an edge.