Elden Ring

[xmirrors]

words

I might not be expressing myself well but I'm not new to these games. I've explored the majority of the game and, to my knowledge, have done all the major bosses up to the end. I know what rune arcs are. I'm going in fully prepared at SL 170.

The issue is that the bosses have lost that feeling of fairness and enjoyability. Malenia took me 3 hours which is nothing compared to how long it took me on a boss like Orphan of Kos. Yet, I managed to enjoy Orphan and felt soooo good when I took it down. Malenia? Almost caused me to quit the game and I will not be doing her on consecutive playthroughs (assuming I even play the game again).

Maybe I've changed? I've become less patient as I've aged? I don't know, but something has changed and I appear not to be the only one.

[hellhamster]

I might not be expressing myself well but I'm not new to these games. I've explored the majority of the game and, to my knowledge, have done all the major bosses up to the end. I know what rune arcs are. I'm going in fully prepared at SL 170.

The issue is that the bosses have lost that feeling of fairness and enjoyability. Malenia took me 3 hours which is nothing compared to how long it took me on a boss like Orphan of Kos. Yet, I managed to enjoy Orphan and felt soooo good when I took it down. Malenia? Almost caused me to quit the game and I will not be doing her on consecutive playthroughs (assuming I even play the game again).

Maybe I've changed? I've become less patient as I've aged? I don't know, but something has changed and I appear not to be the only one.

Honestly I think it might be fatigue. I personally had it with GTA 5, I just wanted to get it over with.

[Auxis]

I don't recall a single note of music from Bloodborne. XD

The bit you linked is okay. I'm not that impressed by it on its own. Maybe that might be true of ER as well, but taken as a whole in the context of the game I think it is top-notch work.

Edit: Hey, wait a second. Were you the person who said they don't trust the moon in ER? Mentioning Bloodborne reminded me of that post earlier.

Did you find something in game to lead to this mistrust? Or want to elaborate?

TBH, I struggle to pay attention to the music in FromSoftware games; b/c I'm concentrating on not dying to the absolute monstrosity coming to end me. I think the only 2 songs that I noticed that stood out were the Moonlight Butterfly theme and Gwyn's theme. Everything else has felt so same-y to me.

[Wrecktangle]

I don't even like the elden beast fight but cmon with this garbage, fight isn't even remotely difficult with any build and is just slightly annoying more then anything if you're melee trying to see what the space loch ness monster is doing. Still quite an easy fight so specific build needed my ass.

I was playing a Dex/Faith build and I pretty much beat every fight pretty easily w/ the mimic tear once I got it. Elden Beast took me more attempts than Malenia, Mohg, Placidusax, and Maliketh combined.

Most of it was bad decision making and I wouldn't even say it was hard, (I won't go into the reasons why it's bad, every one has covered that already), but for some reason it was much harder to me than I felt it should have been? I was SL150 ish.

[omeomorfismo]

the only real bad part of malenia are these fucking wings, they made the sword completely unreadable, damn...

[Fencers]

Marika and the greater will are different things. The Greater Will is basically a godlike entity that gave Marika the Elden rings an her power from my understanding.

I am aware. However, Marika came from Numen and was not capable of giving Grace. Grace came from the Greater Will. Yet the dialogue suggests that Marika took the Grace from Godfrey & the Tarnished when she sent them to fight in a faraway land. Intending them to die, which we did.

I haven't killed Radagon yet and I am avoiding spoilers. It may be I have not unlocked the piece of the puzzle.

There's strong theories that Marika actually want the tarnished to come to the Erdtree, probably to kill Radagon and the Elden Beast for some reason.. For example, the blacksmith in roundtable hold says he was put there by Marika to build a weapon for a tarnished to take out a god (when you kill Elden Beast, it says "god felled")

Yup. I am aware of this as well and the Noxians seemed to have at least in part discovered a method to kill an Outer God. At least destroy a vassal as Ranni did with the Fingerslayer blade.

The conflict between free will and destiny is a big theme, of course. But so is the cycle of chaos and order. Which the Greater Will seemed to move aginst chaos by implanting the Elden Beast as a kind of cosmic rubberband.

And yes, her and Radagon are technically the same entity, but she also created Radagon and he was also an independent thing. We see her husk at the very end, but she can't actually be dead because the rune of death is not attached to the Elden Ring (the greater runes basically act as concrete laws of reality and since it's not attached, death isn't possible)

Aware of all this too.

One theory is that Marika found out about the Greater Will grooming Ranni to potentially take over for Marika and because of this she shattered the Elden Ring and went a little crazy. Radagon literally being the "order' great rune had an issue with this and imprisoned her inside the Erdtree with him and the Elden Beast (which is controlled by the Greater Will)

Yeah, but I am curious how the Greater Will didn't see Marika's plan coming? Or even how Marika could be so sure that Grace would call the Tarnished back to the Lands Between.

It's very possible we can't actually be an Elden Lord and she used us just to free herself. We probably won't know until the DLC or whatever comes next.

I think this may be the case based on what the Frenzied Flame folks are talking about. Which could be a bit of insanity, naturally. Though they are really the only ones besides the Sorcerers that peered beyond the stars that are talking about the Outer gods as agents in the cycle.

Though it also seems to be, based on Goldmask and Gideon's musings, that a few people know the truth of the Outer Gods who are not Sorcerers (forgot the name of the sorcery) or driven mad by reality. That there is a "flaw" or more accurately fallibility in the Outer Gods. As both Goldmask and the monk guy tell you this stuff was a mistake of sorts and Ranni's desire for the cold night without Faith would suggest she too knows the truth of reality.

I can get how the game can have some deep lore to dig into. Heck, I would hope it does if George R.R.R. Martin is involved. But as far as the way the story is actually conveyed in game to the average player? It's a flat out 0/10.

This is the only From Software game where I was engaged by the story even a tiny bit. I find it to be so enigmatic and artistic. This is both the type and style of storytelling I think video games need to go in be taken seriously in the narrative.

In my opinion, 99% of all video game "stories" are terrible. The best among them would be the worst films I have ever seen. LOL

I have no idea my dudette, I just smash things with my double giant hammers. I don't ask why bananas grow crooked (yes I know it's gravity, thank you).

LMAO! I feel you.

[Zenfoldor]

The only other games I can think of that used enemy and encounter placement as mechanical & artistic statements like Elden Ring are transistor and Planescape: Torment. Perhaps Metal Gear 3 and Persona 4 as well. I will have to dig up my notes.

Every time I turn on Elden Ring I am blown away by the choices the developers made in creation. Extraordinary work.

Edit: Just recontextualizing humanistic enemies in the capital. Incredible.

On a side note, hoping they release P4G this year on Switch/Playstation.

[hellhamster]

It's always interesting to see how people can break down a game completely.

[CostinR]

I cleared the sewer area in the capital. It made Blighttown seems nice in comparison!

Was pretty gobsmacked by the enormity of it all. I had avoided going into the capital until I had done pretty much everything else save for the North East part of the map since I knew it was going to be rough and oh dear it was quite the adventure.

It's always interesting to see how people can break down a game completely.

Think it's pretty sad actually. Speed running is fun but they are absolutely exploiting elements of the game to completely bypass bosses which they should be obligated to do.

Like genuinely impressive to see these runs, don't take it the wrong way, but when they basically kill only three bosses it's not exactly proper I feel. Without exploits you'd have to kill 6+ to clear the game and it would more then double the length of these runs.

[hellhamster]

Think it's pretty sad actually. Speed running is fun but they are absolutely exploiting elements of the game to completely bypass bosses which they should be obligated to do.

Like genuinely impressive to see these runs, don't take it the wrong way, but when they basically kill only three bosses it's not exactly proper I feel. Without exploits you'd have to kill 6+ to clear the game and it would more then double the length of these runs.

If you've managed to break down the game, found out all the weird shit and strategised the perfect route, that deserves applause tbh.

[fatgunn]

Think it's pretty sad actually. Speed running is fun but they are absolutely exploiting elements of the game to completely bypass bosses which they should be obligated to do.

Like genuinely impressive to see these runs, don't take it the wrong way, but when they basically kill only three bosses it's not exactly proper I feel. Without exploits you'd have to kill 6+ to clear the game and it would more then double the length of these runs.

That's what different categories are for. I find any%s neat just to see how much a game can be really broken, but glitchless runs are usually way more interesting for execution. The all remembrances runs for Elden Ring are cool to watch.

[Tech614]

I cleared the sewer area in the capital. It made Blighttown seems nice in comparison!

Was pretty gobsmacked by the enormity of it all. I had avoided going into the capital until I had done pretty much everything else save for the North East part of the map since I knew it was going to be rough and oh dear it was quite the adventure.



Think it's pretty sad actually. Speed running is fun but they are absolutely exploiting elements of the game to completely bypass bosses which they should be obligated to do.

Like genuinely impressive to see these runs, don't take it the wrong way, but when they basically kill only three bosses it's not exactly proper I feel. Without exploits you'd have to kill 6+ to clear the game and it would more then double the length of these runs.

If you don't want to watch a 3 boss speedrun you can watch all remembrances category. Any % isn't the only speedrun category mate.

[Fencers]

Think it's pretty sad actually. Speed running is fun but they are absolutely exploiting elements of the game to completely bypass bosses which they should be obligated to do.

An Any% is intentionally exploiting whatever is possible in the game. I don't agree with 'speed runs' either. But there is a specific intention to exploit and break the game with an Any%, though. I think it is fine for what they are trying to do; admittedly not playing as designed.

[omeomorfismo]

fuck i dont know what to do anymore, time that i enter in malenia p2 my fucking daggers stop to do any damage, bleed dimishing return is so heavy that i just cant anymore proc it, i need complete combos and she still out heal my damage with that shit double slash in neutral. damn now i can even no hit the anime flurry, still isnt enough, she just start to exchange hits and its gg for me... damn i had to drop the blood talisman because it is effectively useless....

[Mehrunes]

Well that's a bit disappointing. The realities of a long open world game I suppose, it's not like the game lacks enemy variety all told but IMO bosses should be bosses, as much as feasible anyway. Leonine Misbegotten even gives an achievement but not that long after becomes an appetizer for the fight with the far, far more dangerous Crucible Knight.

I at least hope you're not fighting Erdtree Avatar normal version in cramped spaces. The one in Caelid was frustrating due to the tiny arena you have for the open world. At least the rot dragon gives you plenty of space, but even then I had him glitch out on the nearby rocks twice.

They aren't in cramped spaces per se, but one of them is surrounded by a ton of mobs including four or five ballistae shooters and two knights. You can flank them and *cough* cheese most of them with Night Maiden's Mist *cough* but it's still a highly annoying area. Though personally I found the Caelid one to be the easiest. Just kited him around the tree and smacked him with pebble (it's actually the first Avatar I fought and it was very early, hence me still using pebble).

As for reusing bosses as normal mobs (or reusing bosses in general) I'm not generally against it, but it depends on how it's executed and I think Elden Ring is lacking in this department. In a way it makes the world more believable when there is not just one Deathbird in the entire game world. But there should be greater variety among them. God of War Valkyries are a reused boss done right. Each of them have their own theme and a few unique abilities (and then some additional ones that are shared only by some of them and not all).

And when it comes to reusing bosses as normal mobs in particular the benefit of doing it is that it can also can serve as a mark of your progress if they stop being used as bosses in later areas. That applies to Leonine Misbegotten but on the other hand there are still endgame Erdtree Avatar bosses. And there should be even more differentiation between them and the boss varieties. Take Crucible Knights for example. I'm fine with them being one-off minibosses that don't get a health bar but also don't respawn, but the boss ones should be differentiated. Ordovis could have worked like that since he had special armor. But instead he has the same moveset and instead the gimmick of his fight is that it's a gank fight with another Crucible Knight.

[Zenfoldor]

I am now using Moonveil Katana maxed out, and thanks to the person who recommended Ranni's Dark Moon. The R2 + R1 and the R2+R2 on the Katana are both the most powerful moves I have right now, and that includes the whole Azur's Comet setup from earlier. I never realized the whole time my mage was being built around a sword, lol. The Moonveil Katana melee makes most of the game a joke, especially phantoms. I'm not sure if it is like this for other weapons, but the weapon art on Moonveil is incredibly overpowered compared to normal swings. Like beyond incredible. Get the "none" power for your carion shield and you can cast both weapon arts without having to 2-hand it, and it just destroys everything compared to any power I've had the entire rest of the game. It's faster, more deadly, and better than any spell I got. Lemme tell you one more thing, Radagon's Soreseal with this weapon on a mage is so synergistic. It scales with int, dex, and str, of course I have relatively low dex/str but 60 int, so Radagon's bumps that str/dex level enough to be considerable while I'm effectively soft capped maxed on my int, at +10(I couldn't get to +10 until after the giant since the stones were out of reach, but I didn't look too closely, +9 was plenty) the fast draw technique using L2+R2 is so, so fast, head seeking, ultra damaging, and just unfair.

I beat the fire giant right after clearing the capital(he's basically very resistant to magic, so I just spammed L2+R2 into his injured foot and on in to phase 2), and I'm at what Melania considers(in her warning text at the campfire) the point of no return. I collected both pieces for the 2nd great lift and took the secret area to grab the 2x Somber Dragon Smithing Stones from the pickup/quests there.

I had no idea there was a sewer area below the capital, I mostly just ran the roofs to the final boss and 1 shot him with Azurs(works great on him) but that freakin fire giant is almost immune to sorceries, I had to full-on melee that guy, and it was real, real close but I got him after about 10 attempts. He gave me 3 levels. I think I'm 90 hours in, maybe level 110 or so. I'm getting near the pinnacle of my power now. I can feel it. I also beat another guy who was pretty hard for me until I got +10 weapons, the evergoal that houses Black Knife Tiche at the end of Ranni's questline. So, so tough for me, but turned into cheese once I got that +10 Moonveil!

Anyway, 999999999999999999999999999/10

For anyone still using the glintstone style spells, imho, the best one is Glintstone Icecrag. In general I run:

Glintstone Icecrag
Carian Slicer
Loretta's Greatbow
Azur's Comet
Terra Magica

This covers ranged, the 1 shot trick, long distance shots, workhorse spell, and melee is for the Moonveil. The true purpose of Carian Slicer isn't melee, but rather an efficient if high risk way to turn mana into damage at a great exchange rate. It also serves as a great tool for confined melee since it cannot trike walls and I guess ignores enemy poise(or at least, isn't affected by practical enemy defenses, though I'm sure is reduced by their resistances).

One more thing, just in case anyone else missed it, when you go to Caelid via the exit of the cave with the stars underground, you will have to run down a long outdoor valley with giants shooing arrows at you. Once you get to the end, there is a HUGE pot, a building, and probably some blood stains. You can talk to the pot! You just have to be standing at the right spot. If you talk to the pot, he will show you 3 summon signs. If you beat all 3 without dying or using the campfire, you get a great talisman for your trouble that is very universal.

[Jastall]

They aren't in cramped spaces per se, but one of them is surrounded by a ton of mobs including four or five ballistae shooters and two knights. You can flank them and *cough* cheese most of them with Night Maiden's Mist *cough* but it's still a highly annoying area. Though personally I found the Caelid one to be the easiest. Just kited him around the tree and smacked him with pebble (it's actually the first Avatar I fought and it was very early, hence me still using pebble).

As for reusing bosses as normal mobs (or reusing bosses in general) I'm not generally against it, but it depends on how it's executed and I think Elden Ring is lacking in this department. In a way it makes the world more believable when there is not just one Deathbird in the entire game world. But there should be greater variety among them. God of War Valkyries are a reused boss done right. Each of them have their own theme and a few unique abilities (and then some additional ones that are shared only by some of them and not all).

And when it comes to reusing bosses as normal mobs in particular the benefit of doing it is that it can also can serve as a mark of your progress if they stop being used as bosses in later areas. That applies to Leonine Misbegotten but on the other hand there are still endgame Erdtree Avatar bosses. And there should be even more differentiation between them and the boss varieties. Take Crucible Knights for example. I'm fine with them being one-off minibosses that don't get a health bar but also don't respawn, but the boss ones should be differentiated. Ordovis could have worked like that since he had special armor. But instead he has the same moveset and instead the gimmick of his fight is that it's a gank fight with another Crucible Knight.

The Scarlet Rot annoyed me so much on the Caelid one that it was one of the reasons I respecced into Dex/Int to deal with enemies leaving toxic fart clouds around. I still melee 90% of the time with a magic claymore or Moonveil but a credible ranged option makes things loads easier at times. Bows are sadly just as much of a joke as they are in Dark Souls. And yes, the Valkyries are an example done right. If they then became normal enemies that would make them less special. In fact that very game does this with the Dark Elf Lords which I wasn't a big fan of. It's weird because GoW has a lot less enemy variety than Elden Ring (how many areas have you fight Draugrs and how many Troll bosses are there again?) but it still feels better used. Maybe because you fight at least variations of them in different areas and your own toolkit expands massively over the course of the game so it feels like a different experience.

I'm at Altus Plateau now and I found a dungeon that was almost 100% copy-pasted. It had a lift at the beginning, those annoying gargoyle enemies, floor traps + descending blades, a sewer area with zombies and hidden giant crabs, knights, and the boss was a cat statue. Literally all of this was something I've seen before and even the layout was very similar to previous catacombs, down to a secret area accessible by triggering the rising floor and dropping down. They could have cut this from the game entirely and nothing of value would have been lost.

I know other open worlds do this, and are often worse about it. But when a lot of the game doesn't reuse assets this blatantly, it sticks out like a sore thumb when it does. I'll say it again, making the game smaller but having locations and enemies repeat less would 100% have made it better in my eyes. Especially when the scaling can make things wonky and you wonder why Vulgar Militia and simple bats in northern Calied have ten times more health than those found one zone away. I know the actual reason is gameplay but it still screws with the sense of progression a bit. And thanks for the warning about a Crucible Knight gank fight which I feel was inevitable anyway. From Soft's way to increase the difficulty of enemies that are fun to duel always seems to be "but what if there were two of them and you spend 5 minutes running away waiting for your one small window of opportunity before you get to enjoy yourself??".

As an aside, did I screw up Beast Cleric Durranq or something? He's hostile to me now and the last thing I remember doing around giving him a bunch of Deathroot, and he seems scaled for endgame so I got my ass kicked a couple hours earlier. I did try and attack the gargoyle guarding him and getting oneshot, but that didn't make him aggressive so I dunno.

[Very Tired]

As an aside, did I screw up Beast Cleric Durranq or something? He's hostile to me now and the last thing I remember doing around giving him a bunch of Deathroot, and he seems scaled for endgame so I got my ass kicked a couple hours earlier. I did try and attack the gargoyle guarding him and getting oneshot, but that didn't make him aggressive so I dunno.

I believe he goes aggressive after you give him the 6th and you need to lay a smack down on him to get him to calm down.

[Mehrunes]

The Scarlet Rot annoyed me so much on the Caelid one that it was one of the reasons I respecced into Dex/Int to deal with enemies leaving toxic fart clouds around. I still melee 90% of the time with a magic claymore or Moonveil but a credible ranged option makes things loads easier at times. Bows are sadly just as much of a joke as they are in Dark Souls. And yes, the Valkyries are an example done right. If they then became normal enemies that would make them less special. In fact that very game does this with the Dark Elf Lords which I wasn't a big fan of. It's weird because GoW has a lot less enemy variety than Elden Ring (how many areas have you fight Draugrs and how many Troll bosses are there again?) but it still feels better used. Maybe because you fight at least variations of them in different areas and your own toolkit expands massively over the course of the game so it feels like a different experience.

Yeah, Valkyries would be diminished if they were also normal enemies. In part it has to do with the lore of the world since they are supposed to be special agents of gods. But also it depends on how often a boss is reused as a boos. If a boss is reused as many time as Valkyries, having them reused as a normal enemy on top of that would be a bit grating. So there's also a balance of reusing bosses as bosses to reusing bosses as normal enemies to consider as well. If it's a boss once or twice (maybe a bit more if the game is really big) then as long as the other things I talked about still apply normal mob versions would be fine. More than that and keep it boss only (the previous points on that also still apply).

As for the Dark Elves, I don't really remember the normal mob variety other than having some dim recollection of there being Dark Elves you finished in a similar manner to the boss, but here in general I'm OK. There was only one Dark Elf boss from what I recall, so it's fine on the ratio thing. And in terms of lore here we have an entire race so it'd be weird if there was only one Dark Elf of a particular muscle mass or overall build. So also fine on that front for me. So all that's left for it not to feel wrong is to give the boss some unique weapon and/or other tools that expand on its moveset and overall feel and it's fine. Again, I can't really recall the normal mobs so I'm not sure whether it applied here or not, so I'm talking in general.

I'm at Altus Plateau now and I found a dungeon that was almost 100% copy-pasted. It had a lift at the beginning, those annoying gargoyle enemies, floor traps + descending blades, a sewer area with zombies and hidden giant crabs, knights, and the boss was a cat statue. Literally all of this was something I've seen before and even the layout was very similar to previous catacombs, down to a secret area accessible by triggering the rising floor and dropping down. They could have cut this from the game entirely and nothing of value would have been lost.

Yeah, the dungeons with crabs in them felt particularly same-y for some reason. And even though they were differentiated by some gimmicks from what I recall those gimmicks were also shared with other gimmick-based dungeons (though without crabs), like the looping layout.

As an aside, did I screw up Beast Cleric Durranq or something? He's hostile to me now and the last thing I remember doing around giving him a bunch of Deathroot, and he seems scaled for endgame so I got my ass kicked a couple hours earlier. I did try and attack the gargoyle guarding him and getting oneshot, but that didn't make him aggressive so I dunno.

No, you just need to smack like 10% of his HP. Technically you can even aggro the Black Blade Kindred outside and if you get lucky it will destroy his ass with one hit.

[Jastall]

Yeah, Valkyries would be diminished if they were also normal enemies. In part it has to do with the lore of the world since they are supposed to be special agents of gods. But also it depends on how often a boss is reused as a boos. If a boss is reused as many time as Valkyries, having them reused as a normal enemy on top of that would be a bit grating. So there's also a balance of reusing bosses as bosses to reusing bosses as normal enemies to consider as well. If it's a boss once or twice (maybe a bit more if the game is really big) then as long as the other things I talked about still apply normal mob versions would be fine. More than that and keep it boss only (the previous points on that also still apply).

As for the Dark Elves, I don't really remember the normal mob variety other than having some dim recollection of there being Dark Elves you finished in a similar manner to the boss, but here in general I'm OK. There was only one Dark Elf boss from what I recall, so it's fine on the ratio thing. And in terms of lore here we have an entire race so it'd be weird if there was only one Dark Elf of a particular muscle mass or overall build. So also fine on that front for me. So all that's left for it not to feel wrong is to give the boss some unique weapon and/or other tools that expand on its moveset and overall feel and it's fine. Again, I can't really recall the normal mobs so I'm not sure whether it applied here or not, so I'm talking in general.




Yeah, the dungeons with crabs in them felt particularly same-y for some reason. And even though they were differentiated by some gimmicks from what I recall those gimmicks were also shared with other gimmick-based dungeons (though without crabs), like the looping layout.




No, you just need to smack like 10% of his HP. Technically you can even aggro the Black Blade Kindred outside and if you get lucky it will destroy his ass with one hit.

The crabs are just so predictable. Oh, here's a swampy/sewery area with items just out in the open. I really wonder what's going to pop from under it when I walk to pick them up, hmmm. It's like From hired a guy and his entire thing was placing items this way and putting 1 to 3 giant crabs under them. And when they found out who had a hidden crab fetish it was too late. Again, sticks out in a game that is usually quite good at surprising the player. In general Altus Plateau features a lot of stuff I've seen before, from the scenery to the enemies and dungeons. Feels like Limgrave 2.0 where Liurnia and Calied were quite a bit different.

The Dark Elf commanders showed up 5-6 times that I recall. I vividly remember them thanks to their annoying ass blinding attacks which were especially grating in Muspelheim. They're not the most egregious example, just one that came off the top of my head.

And cheers to you and @Very Tired for Beast Cleric. I'll go beat him up until he goes back to being good then. Feels like WoW all over again, hehe.