Elden Ring

[BeepBoo]

It shouldn't be possible for you to not react because the game's animations (for your character) are so slow that between you having no tell and starting your attack, someone gets to wind up an attack so powerful it kills you outright. Having to sit back for 20 seconds just to find that perfect opening is the most annoying boss design in any dark souls, and normally it's limited to MAYBE one boss, and it's usually a meme/gimmick boss. Even on the fucking Nameless King I was able to avoid attacks while still feeling like I was able to get in and do my job.

I saw a quote on some article that perfectly sums up elden ring with a slow weapon: "(most/every/? idk I can't remember exactly) bosses pose the question 'when is it my turn?'"

[Kumorii]

Here's an example of what I mean. You have to be patient and pick your spots to get in damage. Avoiding that attack is the hardest part of the fight, so if you're not trying to anticipate it, and she jumps in the air while you're mid-swing, then I'd say you're being greedy.

Bloodhound Step is also a good tool to use to outrange the attack. The I-frames it provides come in handy to avoid some of the damage as well.

That's how I did it as well. The first part that is. I dodge the other two attacks because I found them to be kinda easy to dodge after practice.

But as you can see he runs in circles to bait the first one. 2nd time he backpedals an anticipation of it. So he's being pro-active... So I argue the attack still isn't designed to punish greed. Because the counter isn't to not be greedy, but to be pro-active and anticipate it.

I certainly think that's the intended design though, it's just isn't executed well because even without greed it's difficult for most to dodge it properly.

Really gonna try and learn the 2nd part though. To dodge the first attack.
In the end it's just semantics anyway. Thanks for the video though.

[dope_danny]

People have translated the song the bat women sing and its pretty interesting. Talking about how they are tarnished, they were meant to be mothers but never can be, they were once royalty but nobody is left to cry for them and they wonder why the 'golden one' is so angry.

It reaffirms some stuff set up elsewhere like with the land squid that no children are being born normally and that the beasts were their own society before being reduced to savages living in caves like bandits.

The question is the 'golden one' bit since they call themselves tarnished which means like excommunicated from the order of things established with the erdtree but they could be talking about the tree, marika, the elden beast or the greater will to name a few but it still seems iffy when and why the beasts and azula fell to ruin. Theres clear mentions from early on that human society had legends of a floating temple so who knows.

[omeomorfismo]

Charge up us long yes. But even if you run as soon as she jumps she still have such a range on it that'll it reach you. The first part of the attack is way longer than a roll so you'll get hit before you can make the 2nd one making you take a hit or two during recovery. It has insane tracking too.

The other two parts are avoidable yeah.

So far only way to completely avoid, from what I've experienced and seen from others, is to bait it. Not react to it.
You probably can but I'll have to see it tbh

yes, i know that the first flurry is too long for a single roll, thats because i wrote "2 chained rolls". im using mostly the improved dash, but im pretty sure that you can just use the roll with maybe a stricter precision

[Zenfoldor]

No he auto aggros when you rest at a grace after giving the 4th deathroot, just need to deal about 10-20% damage and he snap out of it.

Wow, yep, I guess I 1 shotted him with Azur's Comet during that agro event, there was only one spell cast that hit him, so I did not actually see him stop attacking. I missed his stuff. Rewards 5-8, but iirc maybe he did drop the ancient dragon smithing stone when he died.

There is also extra dialog later that I will miss for not turning in all 9, but apparently something tied to him later in the game is not affected. I've seen speculation from Farum Azula not existing in the normal time to how he dies, which is supposedly a puff of smoke instead of the usual death animation, meaning he may be a copy projected to the sanctum.

[Jastall]

Oh totally. The world is wide enough for all different styles. Let me be clear, I am not slamming your position at all. "Sometimes you feel like a nut, sometimes you don't", so to speak.

Well, I was more talking about the part that quoted with the pitching metaphor. I should have made that clear. My bad, I was trying to quote the part but it's a little clumsy on my phone to quote. The auto-correct misreads the forum formatting.

That is the goal of a pitching sequence though. To apply it here, which I thought was a good metaphor, they need to feed you some high tight fastballs a few times before throwing a sinker or curveball. That is the entire point of the pitcher/batter conflict- and so to the designer/player dichotomy.

Now it may be that one is the Ted Williams of video games. I mean, awesome if you are. Though that is not likely the dominant scenario for most at the plate. Which it wasn't, obviously. Most batters strike out more than they hit.

I understand that POV. They obviously weren't catering to it expressly with that design inclusion we are discussing.

A game with invisible walls, ladders, floors, and hidden trigger events is not being overly precious about our time. Clearly.

Well, this part is incorrect though. You personally may not have been 'thrown off' but it is true the game does stymie many players as such.

There are countless posts, videos, and streams of players getting whacked by a hand-spider coming out the ground, a crossbow dude landing one arrow from behind as they dueled some other foe, a goat ramming someone in the rear, falling off a ledge, underestimating an encounter, et cetera.

Objectively, From Software was successful or these tales, streams, videos, and posts wouldn't exist to testimony the design encounters in the game get many players even after a fair bit of playtime.

A few days ago I saw a video of a well-known 'Souls' streamer getting destroyed by the soldiers outside the gate in Stromveil. The dude was 300+ hours into ER and who knows how many 100s of hours in other From games. People still get got even by 'mundane' encounters, relatively speaking.

Maybe an individual's play experience was so routine they could no-level/bare fist their way through the Capital. I would say that is quite the opposite for the vast majority of players and the design that reinforces that experience is extremely successful.



This is just a personal mentality thing. It does not speak to From's design or why their design exists as it does.



I am not gonna argue against one of the best games made in New Vegas. I mean, of course.

Though these games are also expressing different things. New Vegas isn't trying to give you an experience of mystery or ambiguity in gameplay expression. It's not trying to design mastery into its encounters for the sake of it alone.

These are different approaches to different ends by the games. It makes sense for New Vegas to have a lot of economy in its world. Specifically to make those things stand out and seem remarkable. There is a lot of distinction to New Vegas- which as a side note all the other Beth FO games don't have and they mostly are terrible IMO.



This is a great point. Naturally, the other From Software games do behave more like Doom Eternal in layering the player's skills/encounter. I think most playing ER have played the other games. So really we all know how they work by now.

It's a different approach, obviously. One might prefer this style of design in the context of a linear game as you point out. Or the opposite, here in the open world of ER. Again, I would say is pretty effective based on the sales, reviews, and engagement players are having with ER other From Software games have not had to the same degree.


Of course. I don't think it is sensible to tell someone how they should or shouldn't, do or don't enjoy entertainment. That's ridiculous.

I really don't care about or comment on the personal play experience of others for this reason. I am only talking about how they designed some of these things with a mind to why that would work or otherwise be a different experience as a game if changed. That we can apply analysis outside of the individual play experience.

Whew, look I dislike quote pyramids but I'll try to respond point by point.

As to the baseball metaphor, I'm neither American not a native speaker of English. It's just an expression I use because I like the sound of it. I didn't particularly think about it too much lol. But to keep using it, I prefer different variations of curveballs to one curveball for every five fastballs, if you get my drift. Again I'm entirely aware this is my preference, but it's probably born from playing just wayyyy too many copy-pasted open worlds. And this one doesn't copy-paste all that much, so the area where it does like Catacomb layouts stick out like a sore thumb.

I'm also not questioning the game's success. I mean, it's clearly the most popular game of this year and tons of people are even calling it game of the decade or somesuch. I'm sure not in this category even if I think it's a great game. Might be my GOTY if nothing else is better and/or Creative Assembly doesn't fix Total Warhammer 3. But for every effective surprise or trap there has been many I saw coming; granted, sometimes this was due to good design like warning me with enemy sound cues, or helpful strangers leaving messages on the ground. But there are only so many times I can see an item in a conveniently empty room and not look both ways before crossing the threshold, because 80% of the time there's an enemy tucked in the corner. That trick got old in DS3 already as far as I'm concerned.

I think part of my expectation was by looking at videos/reviews that did claim that every location was totally unique. This tickled my interest more than almost everything else. I love open worlds, I don't love ones that add too much filler for its own sake. New Vegas struck a perfect balance and I don't feel Elden Ring does. It comes pretty close, mind you, but the stumbles are sometimes significant. So far Godwyn the moveset clone of a story boss was the worst of it, I literally said "really, now, you serious?" out loud. Well in French but you get the point. That's just a totally lazy reuse of a boss for no reason other than they can. I get that From Soft wasn't necessarily going for economy in their huge fantasy epic but come on, that's just indefensible recycling IMO. At least stuff like reusing the Guardian Ape in Sekiro added a twist with him summoning his mate for ph2.

I agree RE personal experiences vs objective design, but I'll add the one caveat as a player I care less about the design and more about how I experience it. Elden Ring does achieve much of its potential but I really do think that even aside from the terrible PC version, there are too many little flaws to make me say "yes, this game achieved everything it set out to do" like I'll gladly say for Doom Eternal or Ocarina of Time, among others.


All this aside, I got to Radahn and what an epic fight. Visually and thematically it's a 10/10 splendor. That said I summoned my army of bros and nuked him on my first try. I did have to run away to heal several times but summoning everybody trivialized the encounter too much for my liking. I did like seeing Alexander and Blaidd again but TBH if I ever replay this (or they add a boss rush like in Sekiro, that'd be neat) I won't do that. Both looks and lorewise he feels like the kinda boss that should kick my ass and make me earn by victory.

[Fencers]

Whew, look I dislike quote pyramids but I'll try to respond point by point.

LOL I think we agree on most things here. There is nothing you are "wrong" (kind of a tricky word sometimes) about really.

I did talk a few pages ago about how I personally thought reusing some of the enemy design in the latter portions of the game was disappointing. This is really lame for the bosses, I think.

A solider is a solider, so to speak. That's fair of From to reuse those dudes. Reasonably, asking to render 13 unique soldiers types is not likely to happen. Though the boss re-use and indeed similar move sets is a bit deflating as a whole.

To me, this is the problem with the dragons of the game. Some look badass. A few good moves, but you fight them all basically the same way. I thought Placidusax looked awesome but the fight was kinda meh. Not helped by the fact I downed 20 dragons beforehand.

I don't think the boss encounters are as tight as the Sekiro ones.

[Jastall]

LOL I think we agree on most things here. There is nothing you are "wrong" (kind of a tricky word sometimes) about really.

I did talk a few pages ago about how I personally thought reusing some of the enemy design in the latter portions of the game was disappointing. This is really lame for the bosses, I think.

A solider is a solider, so to speak. That's fair of From to reuse those dudes. Reasonably, asking to render 13 unique soldiers types is not likely to happen. Though the boss re-use and indeed similar move sets is a bit deflating as a whole.

To me, this is the problem with the dragons of the game. Some look badass. A few good moves, but you fight them all basically the same way. I thought Placidusax looked awesome but the fight was kinda meh. Not helped by the fact I downed 20 dragons beforehand.

I don't think the boss encounters are as tight as the Sekiro ones.

Yeah, as I said soldiers and dogs I'm totally fine with. Only so many ways you can design basic dudes with swords and spears. But reusing story bosses as Evergaol fodder? I expect better from From at this point. It's lazy and completely uninspired.

RE dragons, true I've already killed 3. A big stonking one with a lightning sword descended on me in Altus but despawned after reaching 80% health. Dunno if that was intended or not.

[Verdugo]

RE dragons, true I've already killed 3. A big stonking one with a lightning sword descended on me in Altus but despawned after reaching 80% health. Dunno if that was intended or not.

You fight him properly elsewhere in the zone.

[Tech614]

Yeah, as I said soldiers and dogs I'm totally fine with. Only so many ways you can design basic dudes with swords and spears. But reusing story bosses as Evergaol fodder? I expect better from From at this point. It's lazy and completely uninspired.

RE dragons, true I've already killed 3. A big stonking one with a lightning sword descended on me in Altus but despawned after reaching 80% health. Dunno if that was intended or not.

What "story boss" is reused? The only bosses with any real relevance to the story are shardbearers, fire giant and placidusax and all are unique. Hell on just a required boss run of the story no matter which path you take, not even using any % shenanigans you would not see a repeat boss(unless you wanted to get REALLY technical because Margit and Morgott are the same person). I think you have a very wrong definition of a story boss if you think things like Crucible Knight or Misbegottens are "story bosses".

[BeepBoo]

Godric the grafted is an Evergaol boss...

[Tech614]

Godric the grafted is an Evergaol boss...

Uhh if you mean his son that doesn't even have a phase 2 I guess, that would be grasping at straws to claim they're the same boss. Also it would be pretty lame to complain about optional bosses reusing story boss mechanics because in that case you simply don't play video games.

[Poppincaps]

Any boss with a Rememberance should generally not be seen anywhere else in the game. I'll give a pass to Margit and Morgott because you could argue he is the Genichiro of this game and is repeated for story reasons. Same with Godfrey. I'll also give a pass to Lichdragon since you have to fight him on foot which most people fought Lansseax on horseback.

They should not have repeated Godrick, The Regal Ancestor, Astel (this one bothers me the most), or Mohg. There are 15 rememberance bosses in the game and you fight a similar version of 7 of them. It fucks up the epicness of the fights in retrospect in my opinion.

[infinitemeridian]

Uhh if you mean his son that doesn't even have a phase 2 I guess, that would be grasping at straws to claim they're the same boss. Also it would be pretty lame to complain about optional bosses reusing story boss mechanics because in that case you simply don't play video games.

Fighting the exact same looking boss with the exact same moveset cheapens the experience when the boss is supposed to by a major hype moment in the game. Godfrey, Astel, Godrick, the Ancient Dragons, and to a lesser extent Morgott (This one is not as bad since the fight changes drastically) all are cheapened by this.

[BeepBoo]

Uhh if you mean his son that doesn't even have a phase 2 I guess, that would be grasping at straws to claim they're the same boss. Also it would be pretty lame to complain about optional bosses reusing story boss mechanics because in that case you simply don't play video games.

"This character with the same model and abbreviated moveset definitely isn't the same thing!"
Right.

[RobertoCarlos]

"This character with the same model and abbreviated moveset definitely isn't the same thing!"
Right.

Might have a point if they were not optional otherwise its just complaining because there's more stuff to do from reusing assets

[Zenfoldor]

When you are going down the Haligtree, and you come the spot where you see a Erdtree Avatar patrolling the large ramparts to your right, when you continue on in that and you eventually reach a group of soliders and another Erdtree Avatar waiting for you with a Ballista, and blocking a door. It has been a very hard run for me, to get back there. What I would like to know, is that door closed, can I just run up and open it, and get the grace, or is it required to clear the Erdtree Avatar first. This is the Elphael Inner Wall I'm trying to get to.

I still need to do the following in the game:

1. Find the Dragoncrest Greatshield Talisman in Haligtree
2. Go grab the Cerulean Amber +2 Talisman from Lunar Estate Ruins(not sure how I missed it)
3. Explore sewers pre-ashen, get coded sword, bolt of gransax, barrier of gold before making capital ash
4. Grab Erdtree favor +2 from capital area
5. Defeat Tree spirit in Haligtree swamp areas to progress millicent's quest and finish her quest, get the final sorceries talisman
6. Get Crimson Amber +2 talisman from ashen capital
7. Collect final crimson tears and golden seeds
8. Beat Melania
9. Beat final leg of the main story

"Heed my words Tarnished. I am Malenia. Blade of Miquella. And I have never known defeat."

9999999999999999 raised to the 9999999999999999 out of 10. I'm about 95 hours in, maybe 111 or so, I expect about 10 hours to complete the above but of course it will probably take longer when I get stuck on any bosses.

On a side note, Haligtree feels like an Xpak dungeon, it is incredible they packed this much this well into any game at launch. No wonder of the reviews, even if you hate the content you just have to give credit to the incredible scope and scale of this single player game at launch. It ain't easy either. It still gives that Elden Ring scare to me 100 hours in, like I'm going into the first legacy dungeon. Incredible how they balanced the game as well, considering how much they had to balance and the amount of tools offered to the player.

[Fencers]

Initially, I thought mounted combat in this game (like every other game with mounted combat) was trash. I hated it and had so much difficulty learning how to fight on Torrent.

Now, I love it! Seeing another mounted mob is a real thrill and I love the joust/duel on horseback. I go to the mausoleum area to duel those tree knights on horseback just for fun now. LMAO

[BeepBoo]

Might have a point if they were not optional otherwise its just complaining because there's more stuff to do from reusing assets

Not my qualm, not my original post. I was highlighting the evergaol fight that reused assets from a boss, which Tech614 was like "hurr durr WHAT DO YOU MEAN?"

It's not an issue to me, but it's also retarded to say they didn't do exactly what Jastall said.

Jastall said "They reused story bosses in an evergaol"
Tech614 said "Hurr durr WHERE!?"
I proceed to say exactly where.

End of story.

[Tech614]

"This character with the same model and abbreviated moveset definitely isn't the same thing!"
Right.

Similar model with a simpler version of the moveset because its literally the boss in questions offspring, and completely optional having basically nothing to do with the main story. Literally complaining that they added content to the game, the same way every game on the planet adds optional content to their games.

"OPTIONAL BOSS NOT 100% UNIQUE LAZY ASS DEVS"- can't make up this batshit insane logic that applies to almost every video game on the planet.

- - - Updated - - -

Fighting the exact same looking boss with the exact same moveset cheapens the experience when the boss is supposed to by a major hype moment in the game. Godfrey, Astel, Godrick, the Ancient Dragons, and to a lesser extent Morgott (This one is not as bad since the fight changes drastically) all are cheapened by this.

Yawn, Astel is an optional boss that gets reused what once? Maybe twice? I dunno I forgot counting space bugs but there definitely wasn't that many I only clearly remember him and the one close to temple of blood entrance. Complaining about Godfrey would be hilarious since it's an actual story telling moment, the crappy gold spirit version is just testing you and way more passive then even phase 1 of the hoarah loux fight and dragons well we complaining open world bosses are re-used now? That would be quite silly.

Some of this logic is bat shit insane and not grounded in reality if you expect From Software to churn out 20 different completely unique dragon fights, or being a baby that a remembrance boss got recycled once for bonus content. This is certainly not logic formed by people that play video games regularly.