Endgame Pillars

[chiddie]

For a while now, Blizz has been emphasizing this concept of endgame pillars (m+, raids, pvp). Given that these options are pretty limited, I was just wondering what else could they add in the future? (Only could think of an arcade, player housing or racing mode lol)

They won’t add nothing. They are totally not able to create decent ow content , that should be clear after almost 18 years.

[Caprias]

They won’t add nothing. They are totally not able to create decent ow content , that should be clear after almost 18 years.

Mythic+ isn't that old though.

They could copy and improve housing from other mmos together with a profession revamp that ties into it since professions are laughably shallow in WoW, easy 4th pillar for the casual crowd... no, if done well for everyone.

[Relapses]

Don't you think something is wrong with raids and m+ if people only do them for gear? Because that's what you're suggesting. Gear in itself is not a reward, it's just a key to do content that yields rewards. If people run a solo system to get better gear and then don't use the gear to go into higher difficulty raids and instead keep running the solo system, it means that raiding is simply less fun either because of the experience or because the rewards aren't worth it.

Gear has always been the motivating factor for content in WoW. Why would they change that? For the record, I'm fine with things like Visions where you can get a few high item level pieces from solo content but the game should still, at its core, be encouraging group play. Making solo play on par with everything else in the game switches WoW from a MMO game with single player aspects to a single player game with MMO aspects. And while that may help "revitalize" WoW's popularity in the eyes of people who hate having to interact with other human beings, it fundamentally changes what makes WoW the game that it is. I'd rather they didn't go this route because there are plenty of other games which already deliver this experience and it shouldn't come at the cost of making one of the few things that WoW does well even harder to do.

[klaps_05]

Problem is the 3 pillars arent independent - if you want to be successful and optimal in endgame, you need all 3 pillars. personally i think the game would be a lot more appealing if each pillar offers you everything, and then you can explore the game further via the other 2 areas.

If we look at it this way - your character has maximum power level in the patch. That power level should be fully accessible by playing rated Arena. With nothing held back - so all pve gear/systems should be fully obtainable via rated Arena. Then after beating the shit out of people enough, you can try Mythic raiding, with no barrier to entry. Now maybe you like raiding and are suddenly playing 2 pillars. Then you check out m+ and you like that too. Now you are finally playing endgame fully.

[Utrrabbit]

Very hard solo content like visions without upgrades and instead proper balancing and mage tower could be another one.

They just cant do a shitty hack job of it like choreghast.

If they did that. I know at least 500 (from thw couple guilds I am in( people that would never touch it.

[scrappybristol]

The real endgame is transmog and mount farming for 90% of the player base.

[Celement]

If they did that. I know at least 500 (from thw couple guilds I am in( people that would never touch it.

Alright?

/10chars

[Utrrabbit]

Oh please stop with this bullshit: a good mmo has also a good single player aspect. Only when you also have people playing the game alone, they can also jump in with other players; but for this, the game needs a base, and single players are the majority in every mmo.

And i knew when i wrote the last post that someone would cry about it, so it's so simple: make it viable towards the single player aspect, but not in general; lower tier gear and an extra effect that buffs the single player aspect, so that it's there the best gear; everything can be easily fixed.

No it does not. Any single player content in an mmo is a joke and always will be.

[BeepBoo]

People need to learn to realize that not everything is for them, and thus other content can have other demands and rewards, and if you feel forced having to do that too, then you might need to review your needs in the game.

But what do you do when your game has been focused on becoming as powerful as possible and also fostered an entire community focused on individual performance as a source of fun since the game itself is too slow to release new content?

How am I supposed to get my goal of theoretically maxing my character's power so I can show my true player's potential to the fullest with your mindset? The two don't jive. And also please fuck off if your response is just going to ignore or discount epeen as a primary motivator for the game.

- - - Updated - - -

No it does not. Any single player content in an mmo is a joke and always will be.

Mage tower challenge (og) says hi. It was a solid example of what true single player challenging content could be.

[Celement]

No it does not. Any single player content in an mmo is a joke and always will be.

I've seen it run be gambit that said single player content I've enjoyed in other mmos has not been universally liked.

[exochaft]

No it does not. Any single player content in an mmo is a joke and always will be.

MMO's can have both single- and multiplayer activities, as the nature of an MMO means you can have downtime between activities or schedule conflicts with friends/family/guildies. Having something to do in between is nice. Options, in general, are a good idea.

However, an MMO can have a problem when everything turns into a single-player experience, whether literally or figuratively. As an example in WoW, LFR is basically a single-player experience for most people because you can basically treat other players as NPCs. Furthermore, the lack of or destruction of the social pillar within an MMO will drive people away from multiplayer aspects of a game, and you basically turn your game into a single-player experience or just have a bunch of people quit due to the hassle of trying to do multiplayer activities. Granted other issues in the game can lead to the same results, I wouldn't be surprised if the reason most people leave the game isn't due to one factor, but an bunch of different factors that add up to a bad experience.

Gear has always been the motivating factor for content in WoW. Why would they change that? For the record, I'm fine with things like Visions where you can get a few high item level pieces from solo content but the game should still, at its core, be encouraging group play. Making solo play on par with everything else in the game switches WoW from a MMO game with single player aspects to a single player game with MMO aspects. And while that may help "revitalize" WoW's popularity in the eyes of people who hate having to interact with other human beings, it fundamentally changes what makes WoW the game that it is. I'd rather they didn't go this route because there are plenty of other games which already deliver this experience and it shouldn't come at the cost of making one of the few things that WoW does well even harder to do.

What I bolded is is very true for the most part when it comes to what Blizz wants, but I'd go further and say Blizz has made gearing even more important for progression through PvE content... at least for most people. Now, I don't agree that it's always the motivating factor for everyone in terms of the players. Obviously it's the case for some players, but it's not the case for others.

As an example, I've had mythic raids (or even heroic/normal raids where I help out friends) be absolutely split on why they are there. Some of the raid is split into a progression mindset, the other part of the raid just wants higher ilvl or better gear. I'd surmise that the more hardcore the raid is, the less the gear is a driving factor in why you are in that raid (I said less of a factor, not nonexistent). I've lost count of how many loot disputes and drama get started over who gets what piece of gear, where the lines are split between "Give it to this person because it'll help us progress" and "I'm just here for gear!". Personally, I've never cared about gear for myself until progression is over unless I needed it for progression, allowing me to pass my gear to people who need it for progression or just want the extra gear (until personal loot screwed that up, but that's another story).

One of the reasons I've been advocating for end-game content, like mythic raids, being easier and more accessible actually ties into a fundamental changes I'd like to see in WoW's philosophy when it comes to gear. Leaving out all the increasing difficulty and tuning stuff from the discussion, I'd rather see something akin to Blizz capping ilvls at the heroic level. Aside from just scaling/tuning issues being alleviated or minimized, you can start moving the end-game beyond just getting gear and expand it to other things. Technically, this makes mythic raids easier because you don't have to deal with gear shenanigans and progression as part of the tuning, but that doesn't mean it can't be challenging still.

For example, one of the reasons why gear/power scaling can be nuts over an expansion is because Blizz intentionally makes gear acquisition the main goal for everything. When Blizz added LFR and mythic to the game, they had to contend with making gear drops for every difficulty while trying to make the difference between modes feel like a difference. When you start adding in other aspects, you get a wild difficulty curve across all the raids because you're juggling too many variables at once. In a world where gear acquisition is a goal but not the singular end-game goal, you could do something like cap raid ilvl at heroic level while having mythic gear not be an ilvl increase (offer cosmetic, non-power loot, more or different/flavorful heroic ilvl loot, etc.) and having the content basically just be about skill and wanting to beat the bosses. Also, you'd have a lot easier time getting people to get into mythic raiding if gear is much less of an issue.

I think the main point is that if Blizz wants to delve into the game to fix their problems, there is going to have to be some radical changes. A lot of the damage has been done over time, and many people have been institutionalized into accepting that the current way things are done in WoW are the only way they can be done.

[Feitori]

Very hard solo content like visions without upgrades and instead proper balancing and mage tower could be another one.

They just cant do a shitty hack job of it like choreghast.

I'd fucking love something like Visions again, that was a lotta fun. But I hope they'd leave the rogue-lite element to it. Hard repeatable content is more fun (at least for me) when it has some sense of progression to it.

[CasualVader]

I think system like Vision is important to have so people through solo content but still challenging can gear up or people who want to gear up alts wish to gear up outside group content.

We have so many systems in place now with achievements, mythic+ score and so on that groups will balance itself out the difference is that we will have more people geared enough to actually do group content.

[nutcrackit]

I think this is the thing to do.

I would call it the "coliseum of champions". Individuals from all the cosmic realms are invited to participate and fight for glory. Each patch/expansion it could get updated with new rewards being added along with new challenges.

Not only would this provide new challenging solo content and rewards for players but it would also let them use fan favorite characters in a lore friendly but not impactful manner.

[Celement]

I'd fucking love something like Visions again, that was a lotta fun. But I hope they'd leave the rogue-lite element to it. Hard repeatable content is more fun (at least for me) when it has some sense of progression to it.

Maybe.. I can't think of what would fit well with it though. The capes just get more time thing felt kinda lame.

[unbound]

Blizz can do what they used to do...provide actual content less than a year before the next expansion.

BC 2.4 - added zone, 25 man raid and 5 man dungeon - 3/25/2008 (Wrath launched 11/13/2008)...less than 8 months
Wrath 3.3 - added 3 5 man dungeons and 10/25 man raid - 12/8/2009 (plus fishing game)
3.3.5 - added 10/25 man raid - 6/22/2010 (Cata launched 12/7/2010)...less than 6 months (1 year for 3 dungeons and 2 raids)

Compare that to:

Legion 7.3 - added zone, 1 raid, and 1 dungeon - 8/29/2017 (BfA launched 8/14/2018)...1 year
BfA 8.3 - added 1 raid - 1/14/2020 (SL launched 11/23/2020)...over 10 months
SL 9.2 - added zone and 1 raid - 2/22/2022...likely going to be nearly a year for next expansion

Blizz used to give the players actual content for their money in return for subscription fees. Lots more at the beginning (BC and Wrath had 16 dungeons each), and a good chunk near the end. They want to get players back? Stop being cheapskates.

[Soon-TM]

Don't you think something is wrong with raids and m+ if people only do them for gear? Because that's what you're suggesting. Gear in itself is not a reward, it's just a key to do content that yields rewards. If people run a solo system to get better gear and then don't use the gear to go into higher difficulty raids and instead keep running the solo system, it means that raiding is simply less fun either because of the experience or because the rewards aren't worth it.

Many self proclaimed hardcore players would be forced to admit that they are every bit gear whores as the filthy casuals that they love to deride. It's just that they happen to have more free time to throw at the game.

[cparle87]

Blizz can do what they used to do...provide actual content less than a year before the next expansion.

BC 2.4 - added zone, 25 man raid and 5 man dungeon - 3/25/2008 (Wrath launched 11/13/2008)...less than 8 months
Wrath 3.3 - added 3 5 man dungeons and 10/25 man raid - 12/8/2009 (plus fishing game)
3.3.5 - added 10/25 man raid - 6/22/2010 (Cata launched 12/7/2010)...less than 6 months (1 year for 3 dungeons and 2 raids)

Compare that to:

Legion 7.3 - added zone, 1 raid, and 1 dungeon - 8/29/2017 (BfA launched 8/14/2018)...1 year
BfA 8.3 - added 1 raid - 1/14/2020 (SL launched 11/23/2020)...over 10 months
SL 9.2 - added zone and 1 raid - 2/22/2022...likely going to be nearly a year for next expansion

Blizz used to give the players actual content for their money in return for subscription fees. Lots more at the beginning (BC and Wrath had 16 dungeons each), and a good chunk near the end. They want to get players back? Stop being cheapskates.

I consider BC's 16 dungeons something of an illusion considering most only had 3-4 bosses and all had the same artstyle. You could've crammed all 3-4 dungeons in each compound together into one dungeon and it would've been fine. Bigger more recent dungeons like Atal'dazar and Waycrest Manor could've been split into multiple dungeons if they added a few more bosses to each section.

[Kokolums]

All endgame content is currently solo or multiplayer. There is no social endgame content. Social endgame content is needed.

[MrLachyG]

Very hard solo content like visions without upgrades and instead proper balancing and mage tower could be another one.

They just cant do a shitty hack job of it like choreghast.

if they'd initially released Torghast with the Gauntlet mode they added in 9.2 then it would've been a lot more enjoyable. That is what Blizzard really need to start doing; when developing a new expansion, think of all the past expansions and the QoL things added in the .1, .2, .3 or .4 patches and instead of adding them in later patches add them in .0 instead