EoA 10.0 LEAK

[Tanaria]

Vince is correct, Elves can learn the way of shamanism, however, that was clearly not what I was talking about. You can be the shaman class without learning the ways of shamanism. The Tidesages are a relevant example. Their use of the water elementals qualifies the kul'tirans to be able to pick shaman. The kul'tirans do not ascribe to the ways of shamansim - at least the one you know the orcs/tauren/troll/broken practice.

Kul'Tiran's focus on Water and Air which are extremely close to the Shamanism that we know of, since they call upon the powers of Water (Neptulon) and Air (Thunderaan.)

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I am exasperated at your lack of understanding what I am saying or my failure to convey it correctly. It’s a bit pointless to be upset that elves arent shaman in the game and lore which I don’t want , nor at elves not being able to access the shaman playable class which I would like.

Do you understand the distinction between the two statements above ?

If you hadn't noticed, I posted race class combos for nearly every race, only went into the ones the OP didn't add that I felt should be there, I also clearly stated that I agreed with all his suggestions except dranei rogues. I decided to explain all the ones I added - for the pleasure of speculation and expanding ideas. i won't turn it around.

But it's obvious that elves must be everything for you (likely night elves being the best because "they were first elves guys!!") and we must be treated like special snowflakes where we even turn the playable Shaman class into something that isn't a Shaman because some of us (not me) can't cope with not being able to play elf-everything.

This "version" of elves having access to the shaman class is just your fabrication of headcanon lore.

How about this. If you are truly upset that elves don't have access to the shaman class, why don't they just be apprentices to Orcs, Trolls and Dwarves. That works for me.
Elf fans - we are not special snowflakes who deserve all things special for us. We need to learn our place and at the end of the day, the Blood Elf questline and all the Night Elf lore we got throughout the past three expansions, plus the Demon Hunter class - we are at the bottom of the list for having things special for us. Maybe in a couple of expansions, we play as Orc and Dwarf Shaman apprentices.

[Mace]

Kul'Tiran's focus on Water and Air which are extremely close to the Shamanism that we know of, since they call upon the powers of Water (Neptulon) and Air (Thunderaan.)

You are making excuses, you are failing to recognise what's done there changing only to suit your argument. Tidesages are not shaman, yet you can pick the shaman as a Kul'tiran - which tells you plainly you don't have to be shaman in the game to qualify for the shaman class. As long as you can do similar through your own races speical knowledge/traditions it is good enough. Precedence set (well this precedence is not new, in fact the entire class system is an approximation, but it's not like we've been saying this all along)

Further, Tidesages only seem to specialise in water, yet you ignore Mages who are known to deal with all 4 elements, and druids who deal with spirit too, void entropists who deal with all 5 and say you can have elven arcane specialists with void or druidic influences (void elf and night elf/Nightborne) or just arcane (blood elf) who can have the shaman class playable, yet Tidesages who only deal with one possibly two are much closer to shaman and thus in your head it's okay? I think you're just saying tat because they are playable and failing to understand why they are playable as shaman and why it makes elven elemental wielders able to access the shaman playable class a rational step.

Look at it this way. What can shaman do? - it's a combination of what mages, priest and druids are capable of doing - this shoudl tell you class systems design is not a total reflection of the lore, but only an approximation.


There are many things that druids and mages can do that isn't available to the playable class as spells and abilities , because spells and abilities are just a mechanism to interact with the game world, not the total definition of what it means to be a shaman or a mage.


This is why a Tidesage Kul'tiran can have the shaman class open to it, without actually being a shaman.

If elven mages and druids can actually do all the things a shaman can do, surely you can't find it hard to believe that a group of mages/druids can actually have a name like say "Wavesage Specialist" or Conjurer or Entropist and their specialisation is dealing with elements, and as such can select the shaman class even though they are mages, or mage/druid combos or mage/void entropist combos in the game just like the Tidesages?

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But it's obvious that elves must be everything for you (likely night elves being the best because "they were first elves guys!!") and we must be treated like special snowflakes where we even turn the playable Shaman class into something that isn't a Shaman because some of us (not me) can't cope with not being able to play elf-everything.

Hypocrite. You want elves to be treated as special snowlfakes and are having another go at a person you think is doing the same ?

This "version" of elves having access to the shaman class is just your fabrication of headcanon lore.

I mean, seriously, what else would it b e? I mean if the term suggestion did not imply it, the mere fact that you can 't select the shaman class as an elf would have made that obvious.

How about this. If you are truly upset that elves don't have access to the shaman class, why don't they just be apprentices to Orcs, Trolls and Dwarves. That works for me.
Elf fans - we are not special snowflakes who deserve all things special for us. We need to learn our place and at the end of the day, the Blood Elf questline and all the Night Elf lore we got throughout the past three expansions, plus the Demon Hunter class - we are at the bottom of the list for having things special for us. Maybe in a couple of expansions, we play as Orc and Dwarf Shaman apprentices.

Just because someone tries to help you see their point in disagreement with you doesn't mean they 're upset. Just because you are getting upset by arguing doesn't mean I'm upset either. Nor does it mean I am upset elves don't have access to the shaman class.

Seriously, do you think I am set whenever I suggest something? Or do you think I make suggestions because I'm upset over something? Seriously Tanarai, you and I have a very different mindset, I make suggestions because I am creative, it's what I am, and what I do, if something takes my interest, I'll come up with new ideas about it, i don't need to be upset about something to suggest something. Did my original response to the OP come across as upset? That is when I wrote my suggestion.. oh wait, bet you didn't read it.


As for being apprentices to orcs and trolls, or apprentices to dwarves - I don't like the idea, and I don't think it is necessary based on the game lore. Through the arcane any night elf, Nightborne, void elf or blood elf can do everything in the elemental and enhancement tree. Through druidism and a priesthood added to that, they can do everything in the restoration tree albeit in a different way - but same results effectively. Also using the void can do most things shaman can do as twilight cultists prove. Please explain WHY an elf would need to apprentice to an orc to have the shaman class playable? And why they would need to actually become shaman in the lore? Blizzard can simply open up the shaman class to elves by simply showing elven arcane users specialising in using the arcane to generate earth, air, fire and water - and then each elven group can have their inflection, night elves would have their arcane users have druidic discipline in and regard for treating elemental spirits not as slaves or objects but like they do nature and forest spirits, with reverence and care, add to their arcane knowledge they would indeed be wise conveyors of elemental powers and spirits. Void elves could have or use the void knowledge in extending their arcane control of elements and elementals going through it that way.. t heir character determines how they treat the elementals, it could be they enslave void elementals or maybe not, they don't have to be concerned with the global state of the elements at all, however as experts in the use of elements, when a global crisis comes up that involves the elements, guess what, those mage/void and mage/druid experts in the elements amongst the void elves and night elves would be joining the other experts (mostly shaman) of other races who do have experience and knowledge dealing with elementals to solve those problems. Even if like Tidesages, only one element is mastered.

[Tanaria]

Hypocrite. You want elves to be treated as special snowlfakes and are having another go at a person you think is doing the same ?

No - I wanted Blood Elves to have their sectors, within their current society, to have full representation. Them being the Blood Elf Mages, Blood Elf Paladins and Blood Elf Hunters.

That's not being "special." That's wanting their core areas receiving lore development.
I know you don't want to talk about it (because it goes against what you and Ravenmoon were preaching, regarding Thalassian focus being put solely on the Alliance and the Blood Elves becoming refugees), but the new Blood Elf story in 9.2.5 represents what I want. Not much Farstrider focus, but we have seen them throughout BFA and in the first part of the Blood Elf heritage questline.

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As for being apprentices to orcs and trolls, or apprentices to dwarves - I don't like the idea, and I don't think it is necessary based on the game lore. Through the arcane any night elf, Nightborne, void elf or blood elf can do everything in the elemental and enhancement tree. Through druidism and a priesthood added to that, they can do everything in the restoration tree albeit in a different way - but same results effectively. Also using the void can do most things shaman can do as twilight cultists prove. Please explain WHY an elf would need to apprentice to an orc to have the shaman class playable? And why they would need to actually become shaman in the lore? Blizzard can simply open up the shaman class to elves by simply showing elven arcane users specialising in using the arcane to generate earth, air, fire and water - and then each elven group can have their inflection, night elves would have their arcane users have druidic discipline in and regard for treating elemental spirits not as slaves or objects but like they do nature and forest spirits, with reverence and care, add to their arcane knowledge they would indeed be wise conveyors of elemental powers and spirits. Void elves could have or use the void knowledge in extending their arcane control of elements and elementals going through it that way.. t heir character determines how they treat the elementals, it could be they enslave void elementals or maybe not, they don't have to be concerned with the global state of the elements at all, however as experts in the use of elements, when a global crisis comes up that involves the elements, guess what, those mage/void and mage/druid experts in the elements amongst the void elves and night elves would be joining the other experts (mostly shaman) of other races who do have experience and knowledge dealing with elementals to solve those problems. Even if like Tidesages, only one element is mastered.

So, all Shaman abilities are now arcane because -reasons only for the Elves-.
Again - your just doing what Blizzard already do with Humans, except this is so much worse. You literally are making calls for this to be "World of Elfcraft" but with you, special focus on night elves (even though we've already had 3 expansions that have involved them.)

I did laugh at the recent book, which doesn't even make mention of the night elf mages in Feralas, wanting to reclaim dire maul. All suggestions relating to their mission being a failure.

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You are making excuses, you are failing to recognise what's done there changing only to suit your argument. Tidesages are not shaman, yet you can pick the shaman as a Kul'tiran - which tells you plainly you don't have to be shaman in the game to qualify for the shaman class. As long as you can do similar through your own races speical knowledge/traditions it is good enough. Precedence set (well this precedence is not new, in fact the entire class system is an approximation, but it's not like we've been saying this all along)

Your a failure at lore.
Tidesage actually brings core elements to the Shaman class. The uses of Water and Air, core segments of what being a Shaman is.

I don't understand why you keep waffling on about elf mages and Shaman spells being turned to "Arcane" spells because "pwetty elves are special."

What's next on the Mace list of elves being special? Elves become the Master Monk race?

[Mace]

No - I wanted Blood Elves to have their sectors, within their current society, to have full representation. Them being the Blood Elf Mages, Blood Elf Paladins and Blood Elf Hunters.

That's not being "special." That's wanting their core areas receiving lore development.
I know you don't want to talk about it (because it goes against what you and Ravenmoon were preaching, regarding Thalassian focus being put solely on the Alliance and the Blood Elves becoming refugees), but the new Blood Elf story in 9.2.5 represents what I want. Not much Farstrider focus, but we have seen them throughout BFA and in the first part of the Blood Elf heritage questline.

Oh so you're accusing me because I suggest more playable options for elves? Or because I bothered to explain why? Why didn't you have a go at me for all the other races I also agreed on having more options?

Why is every other race including trolls okay (who only lack one class) okay with having more playable classes, but , not elves, that's favouritism and being a special snowflake... as i said, you're spending too much time on forums and paying too close mind to elf haters like Syegfryed.

Suggest what you like, when you like, be free of the ire of others. They have nothing on you.

Also stop trying to manage people's ideas and opinions. It's not your job, you're not a community manger it's not your duty to manipulate and moderate people's opinions and posts about elves in order to get what you think is the optimal position for devs to take "well crafted" suggestions about improvements to blood elves.

You're afraid that the more people talk about elves, and the more backlash Syegfryed people give, the less likely devs are to actually do positive things for elves. And because blood elves are one of those elves, you are now taking this very seriously and both torturing yourself and annoying other people who just simply want to share their ideas and thoughts rather than mix up in some complex opinion manipulation game.

So, all Shaman abilities are now arcane because -reasons only for the Elves-.

Seriously, do I have to explain what I meant? Are you playing dumb or actually dumb?

Again - your just doing what Blizzard already do with Humans, except this is so much worse. You literally are making calls for this to be "World of Elfcraft" but with you, special focus on night elves (even though we've already had 3 expansions that have involved them.)

Are you drinking Syegfryed cool aid? Or just trying to pick a fight... so, more class options for elves is suddenly making "World of Elfcraft" - you've been listening to too many quacks on the forum, and now you're spouting their insanity.

I did laugh at the recent book, which doesn't even make mention of the night elf mages in Feralas, wanting to reclaim dire maul. All suggestions relating to their mission being a failure.

Who cares? If you want to read volumes into an omission and draw unsubstantial conclusions to generate pointless and mindless , not even interesting discussion on what they've left out. You are welcome to it child - just know they leave more unsaid than said, and sometimes take over a decade to come back to something they've not shown or mentioned. FYI, , just because you don't see it in the latest expansion or book, doesn't mean it isn't there.

Your a failure at lore.

I don't care. Nor do I care that you think.

Tidesage actually brings core elements to the Shaman class. The uses of Water and Air, core segments of what being a Shaman is.

Yes, they are full of air abilities, and yet the mage that clearly handles fire, water, air and earth can't possibly do the things a shaman's various elementals do at their begging (or swindling if goblin)

So much for my lore ignorance, you are making a fine showing of yours.

I don't understand why you keep waffling on about elf mages and Shaman spells being turned to "Arcane" spells because "pwetty elves are special."

What's next on the Mace list of elves being special? Elves become the Master Monk race?

No, because in the lore the arcane is the fundamental building blocks of all matter, the very cosmic force of the fabric of the universe, and through it the elves already learnt how to generate fire, air, water, earth elements amongst many other things. They did this nearly 15,000 years ago when they emerged and started studying magic. It is both in lore and in game that mages wield the elements (and so much more) via the arcane, and that elves have used the arcane to do that and a whole lot more. Shaman don't do magic in and of themselves (not like mages/druids anyway), they call on elementals of the various elements (kind like you call on a loa) who then produce the elements to do the task through the pact/agreement/bargain - the elemental bestows it's power for the shaman to use and the shaman class abilities are a framwork or typeset example of the sort of things they can get to do from their elementals power (it's not even magic, becuase it's the natural ability /essence of the elemental here).

The shaman doesn't have or need to have natural magical ability to operate that way - a mage /arcane user wouldn't need to call an elemental to produce a fire spell like lave lash - he can use the arcane (which is actually magic, not a natural power of a spirit) to do it, and because he can generate the element himself (through knowledge, gifting and training of himself), he can also do much more than just the pure element if he understands the very building blocks of matter - which is why mages can build cities with magic, conjure food, and do all kinds of things shaman cannot.

So by lore, and reason, they can do everything a shaman can and more, it's just the class mechanics that separate what each class can do to make them distinct in your spell book in game. A druid can also do pretty much most of what a shaman can..or have you not read what Malfurion could do with his early druidic training, druidism mixes nature and arcane magic, which makes sense knowing the night elf origin and development.. but the reason such specific shaman class spells are not in the druid class is the same reason it is not in the mage class - but the mage calss has a massive hint in the frost and fire specialisations if you were confused that mages can't generate elemental power through arcane magic.

Because classes in the game are just constructions for mechanics purposes of interacting in the game world. The class you select has certain abilities and descriptions allowing it to feel and sound unique when you play and switch between classes, but in the lore, there is far more overlap. Mages, Druids and the void can pretty much do nearly everything shaman can do through their own training.. this is why elves have never needed to be shaman in the game. And because they can do these things through the arcane, druidism and the void is exactly why night elves, Nightborne, void elves, blood elves should be able to have the shaman class selectable where their speciality arcane users trained in elemental usage access it.

Therefore it stands to reason , there will be those or they are at least capable of being trained in specialising in elemental manipulation through t he arcane - which in my opinion is qualification enough to have the shaman class selectable. It's how the lore is written. Now if you think shaman can't be special because everything the playable class can do can be replicated by mage druids, you'd be wrong, because you haven't read the stories on Thrall yet -but it gives you an idea why night elves and likely high elves , but esepcially night elves are/were so arrogant about the arcane over every other magic. And why in Azshara's reign it dominated over the other magical fields. If you've read your lore, you would know this.

It's not hard to see. But why would a suggestion for elves bother you so much, when all the other race class suggestions do not? I suspect you're caught up in some silliness or the other. Not to say this idle pursuit is any less of one. Or did someone write a cutting piece on the vanity of elves and the players who love them that actually hit too close to home and effectively changed your view or stance on them - maybe that's why you were obsessed with the blood elves, "pwetty" white skinned, blond haired types the vain fawn over pathetically. Arrogant and annoying. Perhaps you realised your admiration was misplaced and had a change.. good on you. But don't think I'm suggesting this because of some Elf fetish.. If you were guilty of that, I am not at all, I may like elves somewhat and dragged into posting about a certain group a lot more than I would have otherwise without a certain individual's influence with me, but I am not going to sit here and open to public debate my likes and dislikes in any forum over any topic, whether elves or my sexual health. If they don't like it, let them deal with it.

It's good advise Tanaria.

[Tanaria]

Oh so you're accusing me because I suggest more playable options for elves? Or because I bothered to explain why? Why didn't you have a go at me for all the other races I also agreed on having more options?

Why is every other race including trolls okay (who only lack one class) okay with having more playable classes, but , not elves, that's favouritism and being a special snowflake... as i said, you're spending too much time on forums and paying too close mind to elf haters like Syegfryed.

Because their is lore and actually, Troll lore is far more developed than what Elf lore is.

For eons before the first Elves, Trolls had Witch Doctors, Arcanists and the sorts. That is why they are capable of being most classes, barring the Demon Hunter.
Elves are very distinct in what they do and them being Mages, doesn't equate to them being Shamans. Look at the Grand Magister of Quel'Thalas - possibly one of the most powerful mortal Elven Mages - what he does, doesn't equate to playable Blood Elf Shamans. It's all Mage stuff. You want to look and act like Rommath, you play a Blood Elf Mage.

And any sort of "arcane shaman" would have come with the Draenei. It didn't and we're not likely to see it now. If Draenei don't have "Arcane Shamans" then the Elves stand no chance, since Draenei triumph over the Elves in the Arcane anyway.

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No, because in the lore the arcane is the fundamental building blocks of all matter, the very cosmic force of the fabric of the universe, and through it the elves already learnt how to generate fire, air, water, earth elements amongst many other things. They did this nearly 15,000 years ago when they emerged and started studying magic. It is both in lore and in game that mages wield the elements (and so much more) via the arcane, and that elves have used the arcane to do that and a whole lot more. Shaman don't do magic in and of themselves (not like mages/druids anyway), they call on elementals of the various elements (kind like you call on a loa) who then produce the elements to do the task through the pact/agreement/bargain - the elemental bestows it's power for the shaman to use and the shaman class abilities are a framwork or typeset example of the sort of things they can get to do from their elementals power (it's not even magic, becuase it's the natural ability /essence of the elemental here).

The shaman doesn't have or need to have natural magical ability to operate that way - a mage /arcane user wouldn't need to call an elemental to produce a fire spell like lave lash - he can use the arcane (which is actually magic, not a natural power of a spirit) to do it, and because he can generate the element himself (through knowledge, gifting and training of himself), he can also do much more than just the pure element if he understands the very building blocks of matter - which is why mages can build cities with magic, conjure food, and do all kinds of things shaman cannot.

So by lore, and reason, they can do everything a shaman can and more, it's just the class mechanics that separate what each class can do to make them distinct in your spell book in game. A druid can also do pretty much most of what a shaman can..or have you not read what Malfurion could do with his early druidic training, druidism mixes nature and arcane magic, which makes sense knowing the night elf origin and development.. but the reason such specific shaman class spells are not in the druid class is the same reason it is not in the mage class - but the mage calss has a massive hint in the frost and fire specialisations if you were confused that mages can't generate elemental power through arcane magic.

Because classes in the game are just constructions for mechanics purposes of interacting in the game world. The class you select has certain abilities and descriptions allowing it to feel and sound unique when you play and switch between classes, but in the lore, there is far more overlap. Mages, Druids and the void can pretty much do nearly everything shaman can do through their own training.. this is why elves have never needed to be shaman in the game. And because they can do these things through the arcane, druidism and the void is exactly why night elves, Nightborne, void elves, blood elves should be able to have the shaman class selectable where their speciality arcane users trained in elemental usage access it.

Therefore it stands to reason , there will be those or they are at least capable of being trained in specialising in elemental manipulation through t he arcane - which in my opinion is qualification enough to have the shaman class selectable. It's how the lore is written. Now if you think shaman can't be special because everything the playable class can do can be replicated by mage druids, you'd be wrong, because you haven't read the stories on Thrall yet -but it gives you an idea why night elves and likely high elves , but esepcially night elves are/were so arrogant about the arcane over every other magic. And why in Azshara's reign it dominated over the other magical fields. If you've read your lore, you would know this.

It's not hard to see. But why would a suggestion for elves bother you so much, when all the other race class suggestions do not? I suspect you're caught up in some silliness or the other. Not to say this idle pursuit is any less of one. Or did someone write a cutting piece on the vanity of elves and the players who love them that actually hit too close to home and effectively changed your view or stance on them - maybe that's why you were obsessed with the blood elves, "pwetty" white skinned, blond haired types the vain fawn over pathetically. Arrogant and annoying. Perhaps you realised your admiration was misplaced and had a change.. good on you. But don't think I'm suggesting this because of some Elf fetish.. If you were guilty of that, I am not at all, I may like elves somewhat and dragged into posting about a certain group a lot more than I would have otherwise without a certain individual's influence with me, but I am not going to sit here and open to public debate my likes and dislikes in any forum over any topic, whether elves or my sexual health. If they don't like it, let them deal with it.

It's good advise Tanaria.

Shamans are powerful in their own regard. What your trying to do is force down a view that Mages are better and can also do everything that a Shaman can do.
They can't.

Shamans call upon the Elemental Lords from the elemental plane, which is how they get to use their powers. It's not a case of "well if Shamans can do that, so can Mages." I have never seen a Mage call upon the elemental plane to give them power. Mages just use arcane magic, which is a product from time and space. The two are not the same thing, but they are powerful in their separated entities. Never have Blizzard tried to make the two, the same.

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I don't care. Nor do I care that you think.

Yes, they are full of air abilities, and yet the mage that clearly handles fire, water, air and earth can't possibly do the things a shaman's various elementals do at their begging (or swindling if goblin)

So much for my lore ignorance, you are making a fine showing of yours.

Where does the Mage wield air and earth in their spells? Their frost and fire magic are conjurations of the arcane.
Shamans draw upon theirs from the Elemental Lords.

I mean, do you know the lore or the classes your talking about? Again, show me which Mage has called upon the Elemental Lords for power, because if so - then every Mage race should be Shaman, from Taurens, to Forsaken, to Gnomes...why stop at Elves?

And whilst we're at it, let's add something which does make sense and can work because we've seen them - Draenei Rogues.

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Also stop trying to manage people's ideas and opinions. It's not your job, you're not a community manger it's not your duty to manipulate and moderate people's opinions and posts about elves in order to get what you think is the optimal position for devs to take "well crafted" suggestions about improvements to blood elves.

You're afraid that the more people talk about elves, and the more backlash Syegfryed people give, the less likely devs are to actually do positive things for elves. And because blood elves are one of those elves, you are now taking this very seriously and both torturing yourself and annoying other people who just simply want to share their ideas and thoughts rather than mix up in some complex opinion manipulation game.

Pot kettle black.
"Horde Elf fans don't want to lose their stuff, but they need to." Totally not you, trying to manage what people should like and what Blizzard should do.

[Rockefellah]

No new Forsaken class combos?

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Have you ever SEEN a Tauren Rogue?

Of course you haven't

Yes, Grimtotem & the Tauren in deadmines

[Chain Chungus]

Anyone feel like the April fool's joke name is kind of similar to EoA? I am starting to think it could actually be "End of >Something<"

I noticed that too. "End of..." seems very likely at this point. End of Azeroth? End of the Aspects?

[Houle]

If this ends up being real, then its the most detailed real leak weve ever seen.
Every xpac leak before (and every xpac was leaked) consisted of 5-10 sentences max (and the SL cinematic screenshot leaks, tbf)

[Nightshade711]

Confirmed debunked.

[Mace]

Because their is lore and actually, Troll lore is far more developed than what Elf lore is.

No it isn’t. Lore on elves dwarves trolls both in quantity and depth. Gosh I love clever word plays

For eons before the first Elves,

Eons!? - lol

Trolls had Witch Doctors, Arcanists and the sorts. That is why they are capable of being most classes, barring the Demon Hunter.

So eons of existence is why huh. Then how come humans have so many and Tauren a lot less -? Such reasoning!

Elves are very distinct in what they do and them being Mages, doesn't equate to them being Shamans.

Mages by lore can do many of the shaman class abilities, for me this enough to have eleven arcane users access the playable class, but it does not equate mages to shaman. Mages aren’t limited by elemental spirits and only what they can do.

Neither mages nor arcane users need to be shaman, they just need to be able to do the things the shaman class can't

Look at the Grand Magister of Quel'Thalas - possibly one of the most powerful mortal Elven Mages - what he does, doesn't equate to playable Blood Elf Shamans. It's all Mage stuff. You want to look and act like Rommath, you play a Blood Elf Mage.

Yet you are sidestepping responding rationally to what mages can do. You don’t have a real counter argument so you bring up an irrelevant piece of information.

And any sort of "arcane shaman" would have come with the Draenei. It didn't and we're not likely to see it now. If Draenei don't have "Arcane Shamans" then the Elves stand no chance, since Draenei triumph over the Elves in the Arcane anyway.

Nonsense. How can you make such a statement when you clearly haven’t grasped what I’m saying. You clearly don’t understand. Do that first

Shamans are powerful in their own regard. What your trying to do is force down a view that Mages are better and can also do everything that a Shaman can do.
They can't.

Never said shaman weren’t powerful. Stop giving stupid replies.

The lore has shown and told
You what the arcane can do and what the elves have used it for.

The arcane be used to do all the things in the elemental and enhancement schools.

Shamans call upon the Elemental Lords from the elemental plane, which is how they get to use their powers. It's not a case of "well if Shamans can do that, so can Mages." I have never seen a Mage call upon the elemental plane to give them power. Mages just use arcane magic, which is a product from time and space. The two are not the same thing, but they are powerful in their separated entities. Never have Blizzard tried to make the two, the same.

Again, we are not saying they are shamans, we are pointing out they don’t need to be shaman.

They can have the playable class because they have the ability to do everything in it via the arcane, Druidism and the void This is enough to be playable imo

Where does the Mage wield air and earth in their spells? Their frost and fire magic are conjurations of the arcane.
Shamans draw upon theirs from the Elemental Lords.

What do you think cone of cold is? What do you think is in a meteor?

How do you think elves use the arcane to build cities which involves tons of earth.

How do you think they can banish and summon elementals - have you read any of the books or played older versions? What elemental are running around with the Dalaran wizards in the dalaran crater in classic and Cata?

Sigh.

I mean, do you know the lore or the classes your talking about? Again, show me which Mage has called upon the Elemental Lords for power,

Land where did a Tidesagebcall upon an elemental Lord for power? Like that is the criteria to have the shaman class selectable.

You don’t have to be a shaman in lore to have a the class playable. For the upteenth time. If you can do similar it seems to be enough. I’m fine with Tidesages good enough cause for Kul’tirans to select shaman. And I will be with any group of eleven arcane wielders who can train to produce similar with their disciplines, having the selection open up.

because if so - then every Mage race should be Shaman, from Taurens, to Forsaken, to Gnomes...why stop at Elves?

You still forget that any race can be any class. Limits are arbitrary. Elves through the arcane alone or arcane with Druidism or arcane with the void can have access to the playable class f the lore simply tells us a special group of them train to master using the lenient a for combat via the arcane.

And yes, this can be the case for any mage able race if they want it done for that. Elves arcane affinity and long use makes it far more appropriate with them but yes. Druidism alongside the arcane is the closest theoretically to this. By example the void too has been capable of this.

This is not the only class overlap that exists. Overlap occurs in others. But it is a tangle in the magic classes of Druid Mage and shaman.

It’s also not the only racial entanglement. I can make an argument for all elven races to have access to druidism based on what it is and who they are as well as their innate nature love.

Amanda and Druid are two classes I expect all elves to have access too due to their arcane and nature heritage.

And whilst we're at it, let's add something which does make sense and can work because we've seen them - Draenei Rogues.

If you can suggest adding any nonsense, why are you arguing with my suggestion you view as nonsense?

Pot kettle black.

Racist

"Horde Elf fans don't want to lose their stuff, but they need to." Totally not you, trying to manage what people should like and what Blizzard should do.

I certainly I’m not. When I support someone else’s suggestion, it’s because I agree and they have explained why to my satisfaction.

Opinion manipulation is your preoccupation. Not mine.

[Tanaria]

I certainly I’m not. When I support someone else’s suggestion, it’s because I agree and they have explained why to my satisfaction.

Opinion manipulation is your preoccupation. Not mine.

You just don't like it when people disagree with you.

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If you can suggest adding any nonsense, why are you arguing with my suggestion you view as nonsense?

Draenei Rogues = Rangari.
Seen them in WoD, so why not?

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Land where did a Tidesagebcall upon an elemental Lord for power? Like that is the criteria to have the shaman class selectable.

You don’t have to be a shaman in lore to have a the class playable. For the upteenth time. If you can do similar it seems to be enough. I’m fine with Tidesages good enough cause for Kul’tirans to select shaman. And I will be with any group of eleven arcane wielders who can train to produce similar with their disciplines, having the selection open up.

So, we're back to the "I want to have elf everything because Kul'Tiran can be Shamans!"

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What do you think cone of cold is? What do you think is in a meteor?

How do you think elves use the arcane to build cities which involves tons of earth.

How do you think they can banish and summon elementals - have you read any of the books or played older versions? What elemental are running around with the Dalaran wizards in the dalaran crater in classic and Cata?

Sigh.

Your so obsessed with elves (actually quite concerned about you now.)

I mean, by this very same argument, why can't Gnomes be Shamans since they built Gnomergan? Why can't Humans be Shamans with all their cities? Why can't Forsaken be Shamans with their city and their new buildings?

Is Shamanism now the core foundation of building cities? Is that the line we're going with?

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Yet you are sidestepping responding rationally to what mages can do. You don’t have a real counter argument so you bring up an irrelevant piece of information.

You don't like the counter-argument, so you offer nothing.

Mace - go and stare at your 50 night elf mage characters. I know they must provide you with some sort of weird headcanon to the entire wow lore.

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No it isn’t. Lore on elves dwarves trolls both in quantity and depth. Gosh I love clever word plays
Eons!? - lol

So eons of existence is why huh. Then how come humans have so many and Tauren a lot less -? Such reasoning!

Mages by lore can do many of the shaman class abilities, for me this enough to have eleven arcane users access the playable class, but it does not equate mages to shaman. Mages aren’t limited by elemental spirits and only what they can do.

Trolls have existed for longer than the Elves. So yes - they have time to effectively have more classes open and available to them.

Tauren and Vrykul have existed at the same time; however Tauren were never into any forms of magic outside of true Shamanism and Druidism.

Mages can't do what the lore says, for Shamans. Shamans need to call upon the Elemental Lords for powers. As far as I'm concerned, if they can't do that - they can't and should never have access to the Shaman class. Draenei Shamans are already stretching.
I'm just glad Blizzard doesn't look at this site because over the months, I'm seeing bad idea after bad idea. Must be something to do with the fake leaks that appear every 2 days.

I mean, just look at 9.2.5 and the new Blood Elf story. You and Ravenmoon kept gloating about how Blizzard should forget about Blood Elves, make them homeless, ignore them and put Thalassian lore towards the alliance. Well, they couldn't have gone anymore opposite.

[Revamp Man]

this thing has more correct points than dragonflight in terms of current stuff and its funny

[Mace]

You just don't like it when people disagree with you.

I don't like rudeness and pigheadedness. I expect better of human beings, because they are better. So when they sink to silliness, it's annoying.

Draenei Rogues = Rangari.
Seen them in WoD, so why not?

You see elves wielding fire, air, water, earth, spirit, you see them summoning elementals too, why not have their arcane druids who specialise in that access teh shaman class even though they are mage druids in the lore instead of chieftan shaman.

So, we're back to the "I want to have elf everything because Kul'Tiran can be Shamans!"

We are back to having a valid example that explains why this is probable and also why it works for me. There is precedence for what I suggested, and Kul'tiran shaman isn't the only example.

Your so obsessed with elves (actually quite concerned about you now.)

Why? Becasue I'm responding to you ? I'm just pointing out your objections don't make sense. Does answering to your retorts mean I'm obsessed with elves? You brought the focus to elves, i mentioned a bunch of selections that included elves but not limited to them, you chose only to focus on the elves. You chose to call a suggestion and obsession, and you my dear post FAR FAR more than I do about elves, blood elves and the lot.

If I am obsessed, what does that make you?

I mean, by this very same argument, why can't Gnomes be Shamans since they built Gnomergan? Why can't Humans be Shamans with all their cities? Why can't Forsaken be Shamans with their city and their new buildings?

Keep ignoring the part when I quite clearly said any race can be any class right - Don't ask me a question I am not denying I am agreeing others can be shaman, you are saying why can't they be shaman?

You aren't making sense Tanaria, looks like you've gotten a little lost in the conversation, I suggest going back and reading over.

Is Shamanism now the core foundation of building cities? Is that the line we're going with?

wtf? I don't think you are understanding what I have written, at all.

You don't like the counter-argument, so you offer nothing.

You haven't made any real counter argument. Once again you've just spouted another piiece of information that holds no relevance to what I've said, showing you haven't understood what's been said. You just don't want to admit it.

Mace - go and stare at your 50 night elf mage characters. I know they must provide you with some sort of weird headcanon to the entire wow lore.

I don't have a night elf character.

Trolls have existed for longer than the Elves. So yes - they have time to effectively have more classes open and available to them.

Eons means something very different from longer. Please use your words more precisely.

Tauren and Vrykul have existed at the same time; however Tauren were never into any forms of magic outside of true Shamanism and Druidism.

Thank you for another piece of information that holds o relevance. Showing again that you can write correct information, at times, but not relevant to the conversation. And lore wise your statement isn't entirely correct either. Shaman aren't magical, it's their elementals that perform, and it's those elements natural ability, not magic. The lore clearly says Malfurion developed druidism, so it did not exist technically before him, well before his development of it in the early years after the sundering. Now Cenarius did teach the night elves magic tat was nature centred, and we know a form of that magic that constituents part of the druid ensemble was shared with the tauren too by Cenarius after he first elf the night elves and before he met Malfurion. Exactly what "magical" nauture it was we don't know. The extent of it amongst the tauren is unknown too, there seems to be 1 tauren mentioned in lore and it doesn't seem to be the entire race like it was with the elves.

But none of this is relevant to what we are discussing. Feel free to disagree with yet another useless piece of information you are presenting.

Look, I don't want to be rude to you, but surely you can see what you are doing? You're better than this, and so am I because I am entertaining you by responding.

Mages can't do what the lore says, for Shamans. Shamans need to call upon the Elemental Lords for powers. As far as I'm concerned, if they can't do that - they can't and should never have access to the Shaman class. Draenei Shamans are already stretching.

Once again,, they're not accessing the shaman playable class as in llore orc/tuaren type shaman, but mages.


That just simply says that mages wielding the elements aren't shaman in the lore - I totally agree , and never said they are, it doesn't mean they can't 'have access tot eh shaman calss, because you don't need to be the class in the lore specifically to have access to it. It would seem that as long as you can do similar things the class can do in your own lore discipline, you can have aceess to the class. The tidesage is the example.

The condition of the Tidesage is not channelling through their elemental, they appear to be mage priests that can do similar things to shaman. ON that basis they access the shaman class.

I tried to explain to you earlier what a class is in terms of gam mechancis, , it's not always perfectly aligned with what it is in lore.

I'm just glad Blizzard doesn't look at this site because over the months, I'm seeing bad idea after bad idea. Must be something to do with the fake leaks that appear every 2 days.

Unless you work for blizzard, you don't know what blizzard do. And you secretly believe they do look at this site, you wouldn't be posting half as muchhere if you ddin't. You seem to be one of the people who post for blizzard to see and change the game to your liking. Go apply to be a developer, then youc an be a voice for blood elves development. What a great cause to give your life over to.

I mean, just look at 9.2.5 and the new Blood Elf story. You and Ravenmoon kept gloating about how Blizzard should forget about Blood Elves, make them homeless, ignore them and put Thalassian lore towards the alliance. Well, they couldn't have gone anymore opposite.

Still bitter about something you still don't seem to understand what was been said. Did the homelessness of night elves not show you it can happen to any race? How about high elves? no? Forsaken? Gnomes? Darkspears? But no, blood elves can't be touched, even when their might be an excellent reason beneficial to developing your game. Oh it can't happen because Tanaria would be upset.

And you accuse me of elf snowflaking . You still did not understand what he was trying to say there because you got over emotional at the thought of your pretty front page cover model type pixel character race having a fictional exodus or conversion from your favourite faction.

I mean you call me obsessed and you prove your obsession.
You accuse me of elf favouritism, yet your snowflake positioning exposes you to a degree that dwarves mine.

Not that I care, yeh I like elves, and don't care what you or any others think about that. Is that why you judge me for it? Do you think I care? But like them? Not like you! And not for the reasons most people think or to the extent it may appear.

[Syegfryed]

I don't like rudeness and pigheadedness. I expect better of human beings, because they are better. So when they sink to silliness, it's annoying.

Talking about stereotypes on people who play elves

You see elves wielding fire, air, water, earth, spirit, you see them summoning elementals too, why not have their arcane druids who specialise in that access teh shaman class even though they are mage druids in the lore instead of chieftan shaman.

Why not? because that is not what druids and shamans are, you are using equivalence fallacy trying to make those weird relations

"Mages use elements and invoke elementals, shaman use elements and invoke elementals, mages are/acn be shamans herp derp"

ITs kindergaden level of argumentation, no those things can't be done, neither just for elves, otherwise all mages would be druids and shamans, all shamans would be druids and mages and so on

I don't have a night elf character.

And you want us to believe that? come on now.

[Mace]

Why not? because that is not what druids and shamans are, you are using equivalence fallacy trying to make those weird relations

I am simply trying to point out to you, that class in gameplay isn't necessarily strictly a class in lore. it never has been, Nor does it have to e. The Tidesage highlights how you can make class in game available while it is something else in the lore/game universe.

And it is not the only example, but it is one that illustrates the point sufficiently for this purpose.

"Mages use elements and invoke elementals, shaman use elements and invoke elementals, mages are/acn be shamans herp derp"

ITs kindergaden level of argumentation, no those things can't be done, neither just for elves, otherwise all mages would be druids and shamans, all shamans would be druids and mages and so on

If you understand this point, then you should be aware that many classes have overlap and interlink, they are only defined separately ability wise and given structure in the game class for gameplay purposes.

Yes, druids in lore can do everything shaman do, mages can do most things shaman do in terms of the gameplay spell. In the lore, the specific type of orc and tauren shaman use the elementals ability to generate their fire, wind, water and earth, mages generate the same thing themselves using magic .. which is why blizzard has told us shaman in lore aren't magical, yet the class shaman abilities are classed as magical

The Tidesage is a mage-priest in the game, not a shaman, and yet, access the shaman class. It is a similar concept I was advocating here. Because it has been done before and because of what the difference in game lore and gameplay class actually means. They don't have to be shaman in the lore to have access to the shaman class as long as whatever lore class they are can do similar things.

All you simply need is s have a specialised group of eleven arcane users whether mages/druids/priests/void users that specialise in the use of elements however they get to wield them - which for the elves' case makes sense comes from the arcane, give them a name, like Tidesage, it doesn't matter if their original training is mage or a mage/druid hybrid or a void/mage hybrid - these experts are elemental users and can fit into the category of shaman.

It doesn't matter if their original training is mage or mage/druid or like Tidesage, mage/priest. They would have their unique name, you would be able to see how they came to master the elements (through their arcane and druidic or arcane and void knowledge or just arcane knowledge) specialised and trained in.

Like Tanaria mentioned, you can extend it to any mage wielding race, if you want to keep it to elves alone, you could add something that this specialist training and development comes from the Highborne Moonguard and Duskguard and this is why /how elves know it. Moonguard Highborne obviously being night elves, and druidic knowledge enhances this amongst this new group, and night elves share with void elves who also have their void knowledge enhancements, Nightborne share with blood elves.

[Syegfryed]

I am simply trying to point out to you, that class in gameplay isn't necessarily strictly a class in lore. it never has been, Nor does it have to e. The Tidesage highlights how you can make class in game available while it is something else in the lore/game universe.

Nope, thats not the same thing, that is exactly what im saying you are using false equivalence.

Mages are not shamans or druids, period

MAges cannot be those two classes by "emulating" everything with arcane magic, this is just nonsensical and open a whole different can of worms in the game with everyone emulating everyone, you don't see a problem because you only care about elves.

If you understand this point, then you should be aware that many classes have overlap and interlink, they are only defined separately ability wise and given structure in the game class for gameplay purposes.

Classes sharing atributes or even the same kind of magic does not mean the class is the same

They ARE NOT separately for gameplay purposes, saying this is ignoring the lore

Yes, druids in lore can do everything shaman do, mages can do most things shaman do in terms of the gameplay spell. In the lore,

They can't, they straight up can't, they can do similar things, but they do different things by different means. with different philosophy and mentality, in lore

The Tidesage is a mage-priest in the game, not a shaman, and yet, access the shaman class.

They are straight up shamans, they have the same things shamans have and do as they do, they do not use arcane magic to be shamans, which is what you want elves to be.

It is a similar concept I was advocating here.

Nope, isn't, your concept go against lore and gameplay, its basically one class trying to emulate another because "elves", unlike any other race/class, tidesages do not use light or the arcane to control the elements, they do like any other shaman do, by communing with the spirits of the elements.

Like Tanaria mentioned, you can extend it to any mage wielding race, if you want to keep it to elves alone,

No one want to kept it elves alone but you though

[Nachtigal]

I am simply trying to point out to you, that class in gameplay isn't necessarily strictly a class in lore. it never has been, Nor does it have to e. The Tidesage highlights how you can make class in game available while it is something else in the lore/game universe.

And it is not the only example, but it is one that illustrates the point sufficiently for this purpose.

For what it's worth Mace, I understand what you're trying to say. I think these fellas are just being obtuse and are trying to win an argument in their head so they can feel like they flexed on somebody today.

[Mace]

For what it's worth Mace, I understand what you're trying to say. I think these fellas are just being obtuse and are trying to win an argument in their head so they can feel like they flexed on somebody today.

Agreed, and thank you for acknowledging that - it restores confidence that not everyone around is being blind or pigheadedly stubborn - so it helps you coming out and saying your thoughts. Same to you @Triceron. Sadly they are trying to prove a suggestion or opinion is wrong which is silly, when all they need do is simply and honestly state they either disagree or don't like it - feeling that classes in lore and gameplay should rather strictly match.

But then off course, saying this would really mean they take the stance blizzard should either have class skins to reflect accurately the classes in lore for gameplay classes or actually have new full classes, because blizzard has been doing this class lore to gameplay approximation since the start. The Moon Priest, the Elven rangers, the Dwarven Mountaineer, the Orcen Blademaster and Troll priest were some of the classic examples, the Blood knight was another in TBC (in TBC at least the draenei shaman was centred around the orc/tauren version of it). Cata added the goblins shaman, the Tauren Sunwalker priests and paladins, Legion the Gnome hunter and priest (cata?), while BFA added the Dark Iron shaman, the Zandalari and Drust druids, the Kul'tiran Shaman and the Zandalari paladin - none of these are the same class in the game lore that they are in the class selection, even the Nightborne and void warriors/rogues/hunters added in Legion have additional powers and class names not reflected in the gameplay class they can select that actually don't make them the same thing if you want to be pedantic like Syegfryed - and it's a lot to ignore just to force a point either just to win an argument when actually it is far more reasonable to say "I don't like them doing that " and acknowledge you don't like or agree with all the above examples. Which is what they are saying by their position on the matter without realising it - they are totally contradicting themselves, not making sense, and proving it every time.

However I suspect these guys are way too stubborn to listen or honestly admit. They would hold stubbornly to a bad argument just because they made it or just to make sure the other person isn't seen as right, regardless of whether their points makes sense or not. Obtuse is an accurate adjective to describe such behaviour. Sadly seen many times in human interactions.

Blizzard in an interview a long time ago actually outlined their "class" philosophy in game play. The gameplay classes were never strict representations of the same or similar in lore, but rather approximations that often but not always had elements from similar in the game world/lore. This was because the idea was to allow you to role play myriad of race specific classes they didn't want to do as units like Mountain king or Blademaster, or Ranger or Moonpriest even though class didn't have those names or the correct abilities to reflect that. Not all shadow priests are actually priests, and certainly if you are a holy priest you cannot just "switch to a shadow priest" in the game lore - switching specs is a mechanism that allows you to try another branch of the gameplay class without actually having to start a new character, or change your fantasy within the umbrella of what the class stands for without actually having to start a new.

off course this is not new to RPGs, older RPGs actually had broader concepts of "classes" in fact, some basically had long lists or lines of abilities you could pick and would often have capabilities from certain professions, pick a certain number qualified youa s an archer or a barbarian or warrior or rogue etc, and you often had a few abilities that were considered to belong to another class. A warrior could handle a bow and shoot it well, didn't make him an archer or ranger if he had picked enough "warrior" skills.

Every game ahs their system, . Warcraft's own for Wow was never some exact thing, and it was clear from the start, these guys are just behaving like stubborn and thick people - now having being told a thing and still refusing to see it, they have no excuse (of ignorance or blindness).

[Tanaria]

No one want to kept it elves alone but you though

Bingo.

If it goes to Elves, then it goes to everyone, but I fear that by allowing everyone to be a Shaman, your tearing away the fundamentals of what being a true Shaman is.
Mace's version of this "elf shamanism" just seems like a meme that would be spout around as "fake shamans." And yeah, people on here can say "Well it's not actual shamans...it's arcane with shaman abilities!" To me, that just makes it sound so much worse.

We've got the Blood Knights, the Sentinels, the Duskwatch, the Magisters of all 4 sectors, the Farstriders...I don't think the elves are run down on having unique branches to their societies.

[Syegfryed]

For what it's worth Mace, I understand what you're trying to say. I think these fellas are just being obtuse and are trying to win an argument in their head so they can feel like they flexed on somebody today.

Oh, so, just because we are saying that mages are not shamans, and they using arcane magic to use elements e or invoke an elemental is not the same as a proper shaman, literally talking about how the lore and the gameplay work means we are being obtuse?

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Agreed, and thank you for acknowledging that - it restores confidence that not everyone around is being blind or pigheadedly stubborn - so it helps you coming out and saying your thoughts. Same to you @Triceron. Sadly they are trying to prove a suggestion or opinion is wrong which is silly, when all they need do is simply and honestly state they either disagree or don't like it - feeling that classes in lore and gameplay should rather strictly match.

The only thing proven here is that mages are not shamans and druids, and mages cannot be those classes just because they can use arcane magic to create some elemental magic, this is not rly hard to grasp. This is not about dissagree or dislike, its about understanding how the setting - warcraft - work.

However I suspect these guys are way too stubborn to listen or honestly admit. They would hold stubbornly to a bad argument just because they made it or just to make sure the other person isn't seen as right, regardless of whether their points makes sense or not. Obtuse is an accurate adjective to describe such behaviour. Sadly seen many times in human interactions.

Yeah, our argument is bad, not yours, we are the ones being obtuse i don't know how you can lack self aware like that

You are the one being stubborn and wanting your elves to be any class and are giving nonsensical and unreal explanations that go against established lore just to fulfil your desire, you even pretend to say you don't have a night elf character. when you clearly breath elvish

Again: MAges are mages, mages cannot be other classes just because they can use arcane magic, "emulating" other classes is not being that class, it go against the lore and there is, literally, no point is doing that, when they can do a different and proper lore down the road

PS: Note how you are the only one name calling here, saying other people are, "blind, pigheadedly, stubborn, obtuse" running away from arguments and using fallacies.