Sargeras vs Jailer power level

[Magical Mudcrab]

I've read that old interview, and nothing about N'Zoth was "titan level" regardless. Ion's talking out of his ass for that one. Doesn't discredit Zovaal regardless.

You're very off base right now. I'm specifically replying to this:

"A Titan++ level threat has to use TITAN power"

Kind of a heavy downplay on Azeroth's potential, considering literally EVERYONE, even the Titans, are wanking her potential off as the greatest thing ever...

Which seems to be in reference to Zovaal being called Titan++. Re. N'zoth being considered Titan-level, this is also found in the Windows Central article:

We fought the Titan Argus, we have just defeated the Old God N'Zoth. First off, villains, in order to be credible adversaries at this point, needs to be at least at Titan power level, and that's kind of a big deal.

- Source

However, this likely lends itself to the idea that Titan-level may have a different meaning than what many people are thinking of (i.e.: Titan-level may mean relative to the weakened Titan souls, and not a fully-powered Titan like Sargeras or Azeroth), or it may have been an instance of Ion misspeaking.

[TheFirstOnes]

Why would it not be convincing? We already KNOW Azerite could do a fuck ton of damage if placed in the wrong hands in BFA alone, hell Sylvanas only adds onto that crazy fear. Bad enough her potential as a damn FETUS was still enough to fuel Zovaal's endgoal of reshaping Reality VIA absorbing her power and making her suffer. Almost like the Void Lords and Sargeras were kinda keen with that too, albeit Sargeras was a bit more-so balant on just wanting to corrupt the Pantheon into the Fel and re"shape" the Great Dark Beyond after destroying it and having the next remaking of it be without Void (HOPEFULLY IN HIS EYES, IF THAT IS EVEN POSSIBLE, which is unlikely...) under his rule with the Dark Pantheon of Order. Zovaal and the Void Lords appear to know Azeroth's potential a bit more, and Zovaal was being MUCH MORE DIRECT WITH THE REMAKING PROCESS THAN THE OTHER COSMIC POWERS WHEN TRYNA USE HER POWER! All of this just means that whatever Azeroth currently possesses, it's enough to shit the beds of the other Forces if used into the wrong hands. Bad enough Argus' power (When amp'd by Death magics) was enough to break the Arbiter, or scare even Khadgar, or even yeet his own brother to an eternity of imprisonment (supposedly), but Azeroth's already got potential higher than that...

[Magical Mudcrab]

Unless you still think the Rulers of Order are more gifted than every other Cosmic Lord, despite that being clearly not the case under MANY occasions, hell Firim downright admits that EVERY Pantheon is limited in different ways (And implied in Chronicle funny enough with the VOID LORDS), so...whatever you say buddy. What's next, you gonna say growing as big as a planet makes you stronger? Even the game disagrees with that notion.

This isn't relevant as we don't even know what the actual hierarchy in the realms of Order are, especially given that the Titan origin isn't consistent with that of the Pantheon of Death or Zovaal. The rest of the statement is irrelevant nonsense you're dragging up for whatever reason.

And don't tell me to look up, you can quote shit from the article to help your argument better. You're not gonna sound like a broken record yet, don't worry. It's less tedious for me to continuously scroll up reading banal downplays on Zovaal cause some fodder Old God was said by Ion to be something akin to "A titan level threat", which is fucking hilarious considering they are anything BUT.

This is some weird level of strawmanning going on here, claiming I'm saying things I'm very clearly not.

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Why would it not be convincing? We already KNOW Azerite could do a fuck ton of damage if placed in the wrong hands in BFA alone, hell Sylvanas only adds onto that crazy fear. Bad enough her potential as a damn FETUS was still enough to fuel Zovaal's endgoal of reshaping Reality VIA absorbing her power.

Because we've literally dealt with it before and Zovaal needing to rely on something that's become a banality on Azeroth isn't a show of Azeroth's strength, but a show of Zovaal's utter weakness.

[Felrane]

The whole Pantheon of Death seemed about Titan Keeper level in power to me. Though we never really see them do any fighting other then the Winterqueen who just clapped her hands and sucked out all the Drust in her realm after she finally stopped ignoring them. The Primus yeets Heyla out of the Maw but she stood her ground for awhile doing the Kamahama beams blizz likes to do. Even the Jailer seems not much more powerful then Odyn. Also thinking back to the N'zoth fight saying only he can save us from what is to come he might have been more powerful the the Jailer too.

Guess his plan was the huge threat but 1v1 situation he didn't see to be all that impressive. We mostly interact with him when he has none of his power just making use of the Domination magic he was bound with. He was doing the whole eating souls thing like the Lich King to empower himself. If he was standing where the old Arbiter doing his job would he have been knocked offline by a weak/damaged Titan too?

[TheFirstOnes]

You're very off base right now. I'm specifically replying to this:



Which seems to be in reference to Zovaal being called Titan++. Re. N'zoth being considered Titan-level, this is also found in the Windows Central article:


- Source

However, this likely lends itself to the idea that Titan-level may have a different meaning than what many people are thinking of (i.e.: Titan-level may mean relative to the weakened Titan souls, and not a fully-powered Titan like Sargeras or Azeroth), or it may have been an instance of Ion misspeaking.

Or...if you wanna be more blatant? That after defeating an Old God and the Black Empire entire VIA wielding the HoA, and meeting the Titan Pantheon and using their power to defeat Argus the Unmaker (A tormented fetus world soul infused with Death Magics), the only opponent that could give us any sort of challenge or threat from there would have to be someone of actual Titan status? Also, no one is being off-base. I shouldn't have to continue repeating every point I make every time someone tries to necro a damn threat as to who would win, a Fallen Titan, or a Fallen Eternal One? Both of which have different gifts given to them by the Progenitors, both of which house different dark magics, and both of which used different ways of using Azeroth for their goals. One in a more direct manner, the other in a far more..."forbidden" way.

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The whole Pantheon of Death seemed about Titan Keeper level in power to me. Though we never really see them do any fighting other then the Winterqueen who just clapped her hands and sucked out all the Drust in her realm after she finally stopped ignoring them. The Primus yeets Heyla out of the Maw but she stood her ground for awhile doing the Kamahama beams blizz likes to do. Even the Jailer seems not much more powerful then Odyn. Also thinking back to the N'zoth fight saying only he can save us from what is to come he might have been more powerful the the Jailer too.

Guess his plan was the huge threat but 1v1 situation he didn't see to be all that impressive. We mostly interact with him when he has none of his power just making use of the Domination magic he was bound with. He was doing the whole eating souls thing like the Lich King to empower himself. If he was standing where the old Arbiter doing his job would he have been knocked offline by a weak/damaged Titan too?

Titan Keepers are legit dogshit, never compare the Eternal Ones to that again LOL.

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When your Prime Designate gets locked in his own realm by Helya, yet the Primus (Like 1 week after losing to Zovaal in a 1 on 1 battle...BOTH WEREN'T AT FP BTW) banishes her back to Helheim without fucking care nor interest.

That's when I don't want to fucking hear that comparison again. Yeah, I'm sure the Sire isn't as powerful as the Primus, but I don't fucking expect someone like Norgannon to beat Sargeras in an Arm Wrestle neither. So...

[Magical Mudcrab]

Or...if you wanna be more blatant? That after defeating an Old God and the Black Empire entire VIA wielding the HoA, and meeting the Titan Pantheon and using their power to defeat Argus the Unmaker (A tormented fetus world soul infused with Death Magics), the only opponent that could give us any sort of challenge or threat from there would have to be someone of actual Titan status? Also, no one is being off-base. I shouldn't have to continue repeating every point I make every time someone tries to necro a damn threat as to who would win

I don't think you're understanding why I said you're off-base. You said that I was claiming that N'zoth was Titan-level, which I never did. The post I quoted was specifically talking about "Titan++", which is only ever stated in the context of Zovaal. The attempt to ascribe that motive to me when I never said Old Gods were on the same level of a Titan, explicitly stated that the Windows Central article was being used as a reference to talk about "Titan++" being a falsehood propagated by WoWhead's poor reporting, and even went on to provide alternative readings of Ion's statement when you pressed the issue that played down the power of the Old Gods and even stated it could be an instance of him misspeaking, is why it was off-base in the conversation.

[Felrane]

Both Odyn/Helya do the exact same thing as the people in the Shadowlands. They can create realms of reality. Heyla who wasn't even a keeper helped create all the elemental planes. Her own realm as well as Odyns. Odyn created Valkyr that do the same thing as Kyrians without any specal alter of the First ones. They are both just artifical life created by something greater. So they compare quite nicely. Just robots doing what they were programmed to do.

[TheFirstOnes]

This isn't relevant as we don't even know what the actual hierarchy in the realms of Order are, especially given that the Titan origin isn't consistent with that of the Pantheon of Death or Zovaal. The rest of the statement is irrelevant nonsense you're dragging up for whatever reason.




This is some weird level of strawmanning going on here, claiming I'm saying things I'm very clearly not.

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Because we've literally dealt with it before and Zovaal needing to rely on something that's become a banality on Azeroth isn't a show of Azeroth's strength, but a show of Zovaal's utter weakness.

It is relevant, and we know the hierarchy of Order. Stop it. The Titans are the Pantheon of Order, how is this not legit common knowledge yet? And nothing I've argued is a strawman. Why are you bringing up terms like that when you don't even fully know them properly? You did argue that N'Zoth would be akin to a Titan-level THREAT yes? You did argue that? Ok then. And we have seen Azerite, yes, we even wielded the HoA, but NEVER have we seen Azerite flow at the level of the Zovaal fight. That's its own fucking league of different there. You're talking specs to maybe little rocks of blood, to legit oceans of it pouring out of her tormented soul.

And how is that a weakness? Using Azeroth's already crazy potential to help remake the other Cosmic Forces? We already know she's different, we know her power is fucking crazy, and we know even the Titans fucking suck her potential off like it's the greatest thing ever. Doesn't help that Zovaal's already crazy enough as is, and we had to make the Crown of Wills, we had to infuse ourselves with the Anima of the Shadowlands itself, and infused ourselves with Memory Magics + the power of the Progenitors to even stand a chance against this guy. Oh, and have the power of the narrative...through the Maw Walker prophecy. So, he was downright fucked even before he tried to end our world.

[Ferlion]

Or...if you wanna be more blatant? That after defeating an Old God and the Black Empire entire VIA wielding the HoA, and meeting the Titan Pantheon and using their power to defeat Argus the Unmaker (A tormented fetus world soul infused with Death Magics), the only opponent that could give us any sort of challenge or threat from there would have to be someone of actual Titan status? Also, no one is being off-base. I shouldn't have to continue repeating every point I make every time someone tries to necro a damn threat as to who would win, a Fallen Titan, or a Fallen Eternal One? Both of which have different gifts given to them by the Progenitors, both of which house different dark magics, and both of which used different ways of using Azeroth for their goals. One in a more direct manner, the other in a far more..."forbidden" way.

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Titan Keepers are legit dogshit, never compare the Eternal Ones to that again LOL.

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When your Prime Designate gets locked in his own realm by Helya, yet the Primus (Like 1 week after losing to Zovaal in a 1 on 1 battle...BOTH WEREN'T AT FP BTW) banishes her back to Helheim without fucking care nor interest.

That's when I don't want to fucking hear that comparison again. Yeah, I'm sure the Sire isn't as powerful as the Primus, but I don't fucking expect someone like Norgannon to beat Sargeras in an Arm Wrestle neither. So...

*“So the winter queen we wanted something that stood above the night fae and felt somewhat different than they were. And of course, she’s similar to other creatures like her that we’ve had in the past. You know, she’s not a Titan, but she’s something kind of right below that. She’s an ultra-powerful creature here and part of this pantheon in a similar way that the Titan Watchers and Keepers we’ve seen in the past were part of the pantheon of law and order. These are the pantheon of death. So, that was sort of a starting point is that she’s a creature above and beyond the night fae themselves. She’s part of a greater order.*

https://sagamer.co.za/2020/08/20/a-d...f-hibernation/

It's a comparison Blizzard themselves have made.

[TheFirstOnes]

Both Odyn/Helya do the exact same thing as the people in the Shadowlands. They can create realms of reality. Heyla who wasn't even a keeper helped create all the elemental planes. Her own realm as well as Odyns. Odyn created Valkyr that do the same thing as Kyrians without any specal alter of the First ones. They are both just artifical life created by something greater. So they compare quite nicely. Just robots doing what they were programmed to do.

Odyn made a VERY small pocket realm based off what we saw from Bastion actually. And Hellheim is kinda like...a middle ground Realm that's not really within the Shadowlands, but once again is within its own pocket veil dimension. Realms vary between scope and size, especially in WoW. The Elemental Planes work KINDA like that too, and Helya didn't do that no? Ra'den did, I thought?

[Magical Mudcrab]

And nothing I've argued is a strawman. Why are you bringing up terms like that when you don't even fully know them properly? You did argue that N'Zoth would be akin to a Titan-level THREAT yes? You did argue that? Ok then.

No, I did not, you're doing that thing where you get backed into a corner, lie repeatedly, get heated, and then ragequit the thread. Either learn to read people's posts or consider doing something else. This is non-constructive.

[TheFirstOnes]

*“So the winter queen we wanted something that stood above the night fae and felt somewhat different than they were. And of course, she’s similar to other creatures like her that we’ve had in the past. You know, she’s not a Titan, but she’s something kind of right below that. She’s an ultra-powerful creature here and part of this pantheon in a similar way that the Titan Watchers and Keepers we’ve seen in the past were part of the pantheon of law and order. These are the pantheon of death. So, that was sort of a starting point is that she’s a creature above and beyond the night fae themselves. She’s part of a greater order.*

https://sagamer.co.za/2020/08/20/a-d...f-hibernation/

It's a comparison Blizzard themselves have made.

A comparison Danuser and co have consistently gone against months and PATCHES after that. That comparison is so old, that's like using the WC3 manual on tryna prove that the Titans are somehow Old God level or whatever, despite the Old Gods being much weaker.

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No, I did not, you're doing that thing where you get backed into a corner, lie repeatedly, get heated, and then ragequit the thread. Either learn to read people's posts or consider doing something else. This is non-constructive.

Weird mental gymnastics for thinking I'm backed into any corner. And I am a bit pissed, this is the 90th time this expansion I've had to argue this stuff with you. Though why you're tryna come at me ad hominem is pretty concerning.

[Ferlion]

Except they haven't gone against it. Nothing the Eternal Ones have done have been anywhere near Titan level.

[TheFirstOnes]

We needed all the help we could get to defeat Argus/Sargeras, while we can take down the Jailer no problem once we figure out his domination magic. A lot of people here take this as proof that Sargeras > Jailer.

And they are right. Why?

Decause this is the only thing that the Jailer actually did - fall over and die without involving any external force. The Jailer never actually did anything remarkable, it was all retcons and Blizzard assuring us that he is sooo powerful. They just took random lore events and put the Jailer behind them, but he himself doesn't look capable of planning the slightest plot. This is how you get a failed villain.

Less about the power of the being specifically, and more-so the things the Champions had when facing those types of beings. The Champions had a pretty whacky arsenal with them by the time they faced Zovaal.

[Magical Mudcrab]

Weird mental gymnastics for thinking I'm backed into any corner. And I am a bit pissed, this is the 90th time this expansion I've had to argue this stuff with you.

Yes, you very obviously are, because you have repeatedly lied about what I've said when I've even explicitly broken down what I have said with reference to posts. Mostly, I'm disappointed that your conduct hasn't changed, though I guess I was wrong to assume you would have stopped strawmanning people given you changed your handle because people stopped taking you seriously due to your repeated and persistent decision to act in bad faith.

[Ferlion]

Also, to answer an earlier question. Helya DID do the Elemental Planes. Ra asked for her help. It was the same magic she used seal Oden away.

[Felrane]

A comparison Danuser and co have consistently gone against months and PATCHES after that. That comparison is so old, that's like using the WC3 manual on tryna prove that the Titans are somehow Old God level or whatever, despite the Old Gods being much weaker.

Danuser and friends recontextualize lore so much they will just say something different next week. As far as we know right now from what we have seen ingame and in the base lore(until its changed again). They are not that powerful and now we know can be printed out and replaced if they go defective. We fight a proto version of them for crying out loud! Create a new Arbiter with some random robot and a failed Kyrian LOL. How powerful can they really be?

As far as Titans being the Pantheon of Order thats likely not true since they are born in the Physical realm. Though we dont have much information on what the realm of Order actually is other then its a 4th dimension. Lots of crazy creatures live there and the Mage staff Aluneth considers the Titans Gods. They might be or Blizz might create something new down the road.

[TheFirstOnes]

Except they haven't gone against it. Nothing the Eternal Ones have done have been anywhere near Titan level.

Why not? Also, nothing talks about power scaling either, just about the hierarchy of where she is specifically. Reminder that Danuser kinda talks about how she's not Titan level, but she is part of a pantheon akin to the Keepers, despite the fact the Titan Keepers are not at all considered a Pantheon and only do stuff on Azeroth. This would later be changed with the First Ones being the level above the Titans, the Eternal Ones, the Void Lords. Etc. You can say the Titans can be bigger, or be more PHYSICAL or have more control over Reality, that I have expressed countless times over in this thread already, but to say they are not on the same level in any given circumstance is weird as fuck.

Also, the game itself kinda implies this "Pantheons with multiple gifts and limitations" thing with Firim in Exile, and I trust that more than anything Danuser said in a 2020 interview, arguably even now using Death of the Author.

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Danuser and friends recontextualize lore so much they will just say something different next week. As far as we know right now from what we have seen ingame and in the base lore(until its changed again). They are not that powerful and now we know can be printed out and replaced if they go defective. We fight a proto version of them for crying out loud! Create a new Arbiter with some random robot and a failed Kyrian LOL. How powerful can they really be?

As far as Titans being the Pantheon of Order thats likely not true since they are born in the Physical realm. Though we dont have much information on what the realm of Order actually is other then its a 4th dimension. Lots of crazy creatures live there and the Mage staff Aluneth considers the Titans Gods. They might be or Blizz might create something new down the road.

Titans are matured in the physical realm. Their World Souls from what we know have no origin of source outside of (They're energies of Creation) ig, but so are the Protoform Pantheon (And they were powerful, sure. But we only fought vessel beta models or some shit without Cosmic Spirits), and we know from Danuser and other things from the game that Cosmic Realms and Zereths likely exist also. So, I would simply give all of this time before we actually explore World Souls and their creation process, etc.

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Also, you know how Zovaal has foresight into future events due to his past duties as the Arbiter of the Shadowlands? And you know how Sargeras was the Titans Champion, or how Aman'thul could command all of Time itself? Like I said, it's more-so just the multiple gifts different Cosmic Pantheons possess.

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Also, to answer an earlier question. Helya DID do the Elemental Planes. Ra asked for her help. It was the same magic she used seal Oden away.

It was a combined effort. Ra and Helya created the Elemental Plane (Which is a pocket dimension) together.

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I am not tryna say Sargeras or Zovaal would beat one or the other. Hell, Blizzard did they both dirty if you ask me LOL

But please don't act like the Titans are anything more than just...big Order Lords that reshape, reorder, and govern the laws of Reality, please.

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Yes, you very obviously are, because you have repeatedly lied about what I've said when I've even explicitly broken down what I have said with reference to posts. Mostly, I'm disappointed that your conduct hasn't changed, though I guess I was wrong to assume you would have stopped strawmanning people given you changed your handle because people stopped taking you seriously due to your repeated and persistent decision to act in bad faith.

I don't care? Besides, you're starting to actually sound like a Titan Keeper, ya know that? Not trying to be rude, I actually like that. But still, ad hominem. Let's lay it down with that, please.

[Aresk]

Zovaal required the power of a Titan to proceed, and not only is Sargeras the strongest member of the original Titan pantheon, he had every other Titan soul under his control, except Eonar, who he was about to claim during the events of Antorus, and Azeroth, who he would have easily enslaved as he did Argus. What's more is that, unless I'm mistaken, Ion even confirmed that he had effectively reached his goal by the time he finally arrived to take Azeroth, as most life in the universe has already been destroyed. The creation of the Dark Pantheon was effectively just BM from Sargeras.

Sargeras also used a nascent titan soul to accomplish his aims, so I'm not entirely sure how that is a mark for one and not the other. And while Sargeras was close--I don't refute that at all--he was more than mere minutes away from annihilating all life in the universe, whereas Zovaal was in the process of completing his domination of all of creation; he'd have more than just a Dark Pantheon in that event.

[Magical Mudcrab]

I don't care? Besides, you're starting to actually sound like a Titan Keeper, ya know that?

Sweet, I hope it's Odyn, he had a 10/10 beard.