Why is mindlessly easy the default for wow?

[Celement]

Renown and covenants are "brutally hardcore grinds"?

Bruh...

It takes longer to cap renowned without the skip item then to compete new game titles. Wow players have a warped sense of time investment to enjoyment ratios.

[Relapses]

It takes longer to cap renowned without the skip item then to compete new game titles. Wow players have a warped sense of time investment to enjoyment ratios.

I just boosted a toon and I got 80 renown for 2 Covenants in a week just doing my Covenant Campaign followed by the new ZM Campaign. Plus I got a 2nd Legendary on top of it. I have a second toon I boosted 3 days ago that's already 80 renown from buying the BoA 40 renown item and completing the ZM Campaign on that. Renown is stupid easy to farm right now and I'm honestly surprised they're making it even easier in 9.2.5.

[Celement]

I just boosted a toon and I got 80 renown for 2 Covenants in a week just doing my Covenant Campaign followed by the new ZM Campaign. Plus I got a 2nd Legendary on top of it. I have a second toon I boosted 3 days ago that's already 80 renown from buying the BoA 40 renown item and completing the ZM Campaign on that. Renown is stupid easy to farm right now and I'm honestly surprised they're making it even easier in 9.2.5.

So over a week of easy mindless content if players enjoy any content with even a chance of defeat?

Sounds like trash to me and likely most people but hey bars get filled I guess.

You gotta get out of the mindset of " well I'm only bored for a week" and into " I should be having fun moments after launching the game"

[Relapses]

So over a week of easy mindless content if players enjoy any content with even a chance of defeat?

Sounds like trash to me and likely most people but hey bars get filled I guess.

You gotta get out of the mindset of " well I'm only bored for a week" and into " I should be having fun moments after launching the game"

You were complaining about the length of time it takes to cap renown. If it's taking you 20+ hours to cap renown, you're doing it wrong. The ZM Campaign alone gives more than 30 renown and you can finish that in a single sitting.

[NineSpine]

its is boring because you are adoult now - like a lot of us

wow had its magic when we were like 12-14 completly immersed in this (for that time ) ultra realistic mmo world - everything was magical so you didnt thought about time spend on collecting those feathers.

people didnt mind runing from A to B because they were enjoying music , soundeffects , how their chars swam in water etc etc .

its literaly impossible experience to replicate

A lot of us replicated it just fine in classic and had a blast.

Would it be better if some quests were tightened up? Absolutely., but I'm far more bored questing in retail than in classic.

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Everyone wants different things in terms of gameplay as far as difficulty goes. One of my best friends when I first started playing loved the idea of becoming so powerful in games he feels like a literal god decimating everything in his path. I've met others who believe that even reaching level cap should be fraught with challenge where just leveling should involve knowing your class to an expert level.

I have had the idea of potentially having "expert difficulty" servers that are like that, where enemy stats are significantly ramped up for all content, but I don't like the idea of Blizzard having to balance two different realm types.

To me, WoW is a game that should really have levels for all gamers at each level. And it's definitely close there and I feel most players can experience the full story in one way or another. Easy mode players can stick with LFR/Normal and hardcore can continue with Mythic. Maybe even create some more unique titles/mounts/ exclusive to Mythic players that is only accessible during that tier or something. I definitely don't think we should go back to the days where only the top 20% can actually see the final boss of a tier before the next one begins.

This idea that you just make a "setting" for everyone is the problem, not the solution. Right now, the game is developed for the hardcore and then watered down for everyone else. They should be doing things the opposite way. The game should be made for the average player and they should dedicate 1% of their resources to the 17 people who mythic raid or do other niche horseshit nobody cares about.

[PenguinChan]

You were complaining about the length of time it takes to cap renown. If it's taking you 20+ hours to cap renown, you're doing it wrong. The ZM Campaign alone gives more than 30 renown and you can finish that in a single sitting.

The fuck, that's stupid easy then. One of my biggest gripes (Predictably) reduced to a non-issue it seems. Don't see how it could be made any easier.

Anyways.

I feel like people enjoy interactivity more than direct challenge, which WoW tends to lean on neither on lower difficulties, then more-so on the latter than the former. I hate beating the dead horse and comparing FFXIV to WoW, but it applies here greatly: Amazing interactivity in their higher dungeons and normal modes for raids / trials. I don't really see this all that often in WoW's dungeons or LFR honestly, or even the open world. It's possible they're making progress towards this with 9.1 / 9.2 but I have not resubbed to see if they truly have. I try and keep up but I'm not wholly in the know - 9.0 didn't feel like it was a huge leap from BfA, or Legion.

[Celement]

You were complaining about the length of time it takes to cap renown. If it's taking you 20+ hours to cap renown, you're doing it wrong. The ZM Campaign alone gives more than 30 renown and you can finish that in a single sitting.

The problem is all the trash adds up into a trainwreck. Leveling is dead content for any player that can hit a single ability. Renowned is made to time lock people into mindless content even longer.

This love affair with wasting time of players with the most mild of competence needs to die. Torghast, leggos, covenants , renowned, conduits, all of it needs to be trashed and game play not systems designed for mindless grinding needs to be focused on.

The new flux currency should be the upper limit on resources it's time for gameplay to come back into wow.

[Relapses]

The problem is all the trash adds up into a trainwreck. Leveling is dead content for any player that can hit a single ability. Renowned is made to time lock people into mindless content even longer.

This love affair with wasting time of players with the most mild of competence needs to die. Torghast, leggos, covenants , renowned, conduits, all of it needs to be trashed and game play not systems designed for mindless grinding needs to be focused on.

The new flux currency should be the upper limit on resources it's time for gameplay to come back into wow.

I mean, I'd much prefer something that can be completed in a few hours to what we had in the past... rep grinds and content locked behind dailies. At least now Blizzard lets you skip most of the boring stuff and start working on progressing your character relatively easily. That toon I boosted last week already has every dungeon completed on +15 and I'm nearly 265 item level... in a single week. I'll be able to start crafting Tier on that toon soon with the Creation Catalyst, too. Like, there's nothing really stopping anybody from jumping right into whatever kind of content they might want to do. Maybe if you consider Campaign quests "mindless boring content," sure... but it's no different than any myriad of systems we had even before we called everything that WoW does a system.

[Gielnik2]

WoW already strikes the perfect balance I feel like. Leveling is mindless, yes, but the challenge is there in the endgame for people who seek it. Mythic raids are harder than any Dark Souls game and that's great; everyone has something to strive towards. PvP is PvP and theoretically has infinite difficulty scaling. For the less inclined players you have world content and lower difficulty dungeons/raids.

This is why I never understood people calling WoW a casual game. This thing can be as hardcore as you want it to be.

[Celement]

I mean, I'd much prefer something that can be completed in a few hours to what we had in the past... rep grinds and content locked behind dailies. At least now Blizzard lets you skip most of the boring stuff and start working on progressing your character relatively easily. That toon I boosted last week already has every dungeon completed on +15 and I'm nearly 265 item level... in a single week. I'll be able to start crafting Tier on that toon soon with the Creation Catalyst, too. Like, there's nothing really stopping anybody from jumping right into whatever kind of content they might want to do. Maybe if you consider Campaign quests "mindless boring content," sure... but it's no different than any myriad of systems we had even before we called everything that WoW does a system.

My question is why?

Around mop blizzard started trickling these systems in and I can't see a benefit to them for the players. If it's to get people into the world content it seems a rather pathetic way of doing so.

It might be me getting older but I'm growing increasingly sick of games trying to substitute a difficulty progression system with a time spent one.

[NineSpine]

My question is why?

Around mop blizzard started trickling these systems in and I can't see a benefit to them for the players. If it's to get people into the world content it seems a rather pathetic way of doing so.

It might be me getting older but I'm growing increasingly sick of games trying to substitute a difficulty progression system with a time spent one.

Most similar games just have both, they strike a nice balance and push people toward the activities they enjoy.

WoW, on the other hand, has this weird obsession with niche mega-challenging content and has run itself into the ground pursuing that obsession.

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So over a week of easy mindless content if players enjoy any content with even a chance of defeat?

Sounds like trash to me and likely most people but hey bars get filled I guess.

You gotta get out of the mindset of " well I'm only bored for a week" and into " I should be having fun moments after launching the game"

Most players dislike challenging content.

[Relapses]

My question is why?

Around mop blizzard started trickling these systems in and I can't see a benefit to them for the players. If it's to get people into the world content it seems a rather pathetic way of doing so.

It might be me getting older but I'm growing increasingly sick of games trying to substitute a difficulty progression system with a time spent one.

Uh, it's a way to get players to do quest lines that have specific rewards. In Legion, you had the Balance of Power questline. In BfA it was the War Campaign. In SL, its your Covenant Campaign. Of these, SL's is the quickest but even BfA and Legion's could be done in a couple play sessions if you were determined. Prior to this we had WoD/MoP's Legendary system which took weeks to complete by design. (MoP had a bunch of daily systems which you were required to grind to level up your Legendary as well.) Then we had Cata's Legendary system which took months. WotLK had its fair share of rep grinds, though they were less prevalent than TBC's, which required you to spend a few days grinding rep just to unlock Heroic dungeons so you could complete an attunement that took even longer to finish.

So really, which of these "systems" do you prefer and why do you think any of them are better than SL's current system which can be largely be ignored minus a few hours of what you call "mindless boring content"?

[NineSpine]

Uh, it's a way to get players to do quest lines that have specific rewards. In Legion, you had the Balance of Power questline. In BfA it was the War Campaign. In SL, its your Covenant Campaign. Of these, SL's is the quickest but even BfA and Legion's could be done in a couple play sessions if you were determined. Prior to this we had WoD/MoP's Legendary system which took weeks to complete by design. (MoP had a bunch of daily systems which you were required to grind to level up your Legendary as well.) Then we had Cata's Legendary system which took months. WotLK had its fair share of rep grinds, though they were less prevalent than TBC's, which required you to spend a few days grinding rep just to unlock Heroic dungeons so you could complete an attunement that took even longer to finish.

So really, which of these "systems" do you prefer and why do you think any of them are better than SL's current system which can be largely be ignored minus a few hours of what you call "mindless boring content"?

Completing things in order to unlock content is a viable game design model. In fact, it's the normal game design model used in the vast majority of games, including MMOs. You are talking as though 'All content is available immediately and it's a question of difficulty setting" is how everyone does it, when really this is a fringe thing that wow happens to participate in.

[Celement]

Uh, it's a way to get players to do quest lines that have specific rewards. In Legion, you had the Balance of Power questline. In BfA it was the War Campaign. In SL, its your Covenant Campaign. Of these, SL's is the quickest but even BfA and Legion's could be done in a couple play sessions if you were determined. Prior to this we had WoD/MoP's Legendary system which took weeks to complete by design. (MoP had a bunch of daily systems which you were required to grind to level up your Legendary as well.) Then we had Cata's Legendary system which took months. WotLK had its fair share of rep grinds, though they were less prevalent than TBC's, which required you to spend a few days grinding rep just to unlock Heroic dungeons so you could complete an attunement that took even longer to finish.

So really, which of these "systems" do you prefer and why do you think any of them are better than SL's current system which can be largely be ignored minus a few hours of what you call "mindless boring content"?

All of them were despised at worse tolerated and ignored at best.

I am making a damning argument for none of them existing. It's time to press home the point that wow should respect the players time.

I would point to the firelands legendary staff quest chain and the rogues fang of the fathers quest for what class quest lines should be.

They should be extremely well done quests where you are readily challenged in them. Butchering defenseless npcs isn't good design.

[Relapses]

All of them were despised at worse tolerated and ignored at best.

I am making a damning argument for none of them existing. It's time to press home the point that wow should respect the players time.

I would point to the firelands legendary staff quest chain and the rogues fang of the fathers quest for what class quest lines should be.

They should be extremely well done quests where you are readily challenged in them. Butchering defenseless npcs isn't good design.

Ah, okay. So you don't want to play a MMO. You could've just said that.

[Celement]

Ah, okay. So you don't want to play a MMO. You could've just said that.

By pointing out solo player content isn't up to snuff I don't want to play a mmo... this a while war peace kind of parody post?

[Relapses]

By pointing out solo player content isn't up to snuff I don't want to play a mmo... this a while war peace kind of parody post?

"Respecting players' time" is about the lamest non-argument you can present about a video game. It's a fucking video game. They're designed to waste your time. When you say you want a video game to "respect your time," what you're saying in so many words is that you want the video game to be designed solely around your vision of what constitutes good design. And while I fully understand this solipsist world view, you have to understand that just because you are no longer engaged with a video game maybe it isn't the video game that needs to change but you yourself instead. It's okay to move on from WoW (or any other game that fails to "respect your time") if it no longer interests you. It's not okay to spend hours and hours of your day on forums hoping against hope a random Blizzard dev will read one of your posts and decide that your new job title will be lead game designer of World of Warcraft.

[Celement]

"Respecting players' time" is about the lamest non-argument you can present about a video game. It's a fucking video game. They're designed to waste your time. When you say you want a video game to "respect your time," what you're saying in so many words is that you want the video game to be designed solely around your vision of what constitutes good design. And while I fully understand this solipsist world view, you have to understand that just because you are no longer engaged with a video game maybe it isn't the video game that needs to change but you yourself instead. It's okay to move on from WoW if it no longer interests you. It's not okay to spend hours and hours of your day on forums hoping against hope a random Blizzard dev will read one of your posts and decide that your new job title will be lead game designer of World of Warcraft.

It really isn't that hard to understand how engaging trivial content should be used to drag out play time. I can keep trying to make the argument simpler for you but at the end of the day that is what it comes down to.

If you have to say " wow gets good after x hours" to a player just remove those x hours.

[Relapses]

It really isn't that hard to understand how engaging trivial content should be used to drag out play time. I can keep trying to make the argument simpler for you but at the end of the day that is what it comes down to.

If you have to say " wow gets good after x hours" to a player just remove those x hours.

That's exactly the point I'm making -- WoW is good for many of its players off the jump. There is no "{x} hours" because they're fully engaged with the content from start to finish. What you view as non-engaging or trivial content is exactly the reason other players eagerly pay for their subscription. You're free to have your preferences but you're just as free to play an entirely different video game if you feel this one has too many chores.

[rrayy]

Says who?

I find the arguments here are bizzare... you have people touting wows success as being more casual with light death penalties owing to its success while in the same breath explaining that it could only survive by adding brutally hardcore grinds like ap,renowned, covenants, etc..

None of those grands are "brutally hardcore". Renown was like 1-2 hours every week to do 2 quests and the campaign quest chain.

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It really isn't that hard to understand how engaging trivial content should be used to drag out play time. I can keep trying to make the argument simpler for you but at the end of the day that is what it comes down to.

If you have to say " wow gets good after x hours" to a player just remove those x hours.

Your opinion, not fact. Not everyone agrees with you.