I think Blizzard should keep giving 4sets relatively easier from the vault but.

[ClassicPeon]

Yes, sports absolutely are just games as well. However, “Professional athlete” specifically denotes someone who does a sport for money. The value in it is that a great number of people watch them as a form of entertainment and it can be an immensely profitable business. At that point it’s a job first and foremost, and as such fun is often superseded by the sacrifices needed to increase income generation.

The average raider that we’re talking about here is the guy that takes the pickup game at the local park way too seriously even though there’s nothing on the line. You can be good at games and enjoy being good at them without taking them too seriously and considering them more than “just a game”.

So no, there is absolutely NO comparison here between the average raider/gamer and professional athletes.

There’s no gatekeeping in telling people to find personal enjoyment from however they want to play the game while at the same time telling them not to dictate to other people how they should play/enjoy the game.



There’s a loooot of projection here.

There’s absolutely nothing wrong with taking the path of least resistance when playing a game. And if you want to bump that slider up in difficulty that’s up to you as well. The majority of games don’t give you anything extra for playing on a harder mode and yet people still did it. WoW is more of a fringe case where difficulty tends to translate to more rewarding and as such it seems to have spawned a group of gamers who think only challenging content/games should be rewarding.

Whether you think a game is only complete if beaten on the hardest setting is irrelevant. Difficult sliders are there for people who enjoy challenge, NOT to push people to evolve and improve. You might take it as an insult but “just a game” is a good thing. This is no stakes leisure time we’re talking about. Play as you like and let others do the same. No one is being robbed of fun if they’re playing a game on easy mode and enjoying it.

Maybe it would be good to also define what we mean by “solo play”, though. I consider how I play nowadays as casual solo but many of my activities still involve interacting with other players (either via queued content or open world). There’s plenty of room for player to player interaction in an MMO without forcing the majority of character progression into niche gameplay that involves scheduled group content. So no, there’s no implication here that WoW should be like Skyrim with absolutely zero multiplayer interaction.

"The value in it is that a great number of people watch them as a form of entertainment"

This is not a true statement. There is a lot of professional athletes who are sponsered by the state who do not get a lot if any viewers and do not even compete at the top level.

The "problem" with not nudging people into participating in the actual mmo stuff of a mmo is that - as already argued - most people will take the path of least resistance. With that in mind it means most new people or older returning people just wont go through the hazzle of finding a guild to raid with.

Its detrimental to the game overall. I wonder what you think would happen to wow if it did not have any raiding?

As for the 2nd part.

Why dont you start by arguing how any of what i said was projection?

"There’s absolutely nothing wrong with taking the path of least resistance when playing a game."

This is a loser attitude. I dont mean that as an insult but as a general explanation. People who think like that never evolve and never better themselves. Always maintaining status quo and never pushing yourself kills the mind and the body. People need help to push themselves into being better - for their own sake.

"Whether you think a game is only complete if beaten on the hardest setting is irrelevant."

This whole passive aggressive quote is irrelevant because i never wrote that.

There is a difference between your boolean view on things like forcing people into specific content - and the reality where giving people incentives to do things help them push themselves if they want to. Remember how my argument was about incentives from the start?

[chiddie]

Blizzard reasoning was that a +15 is similar in difficulty to a mythic boss but they don't want people to be able to farm mythic raid ilvl gear so they give you the intended reward in the vault. Thing is that +15 isn't as hard as mythic raid and never was, also you have to only finish one m+ but need to kill 2/3 bosses in the raid to unlock the first vault.

In my opinion the vault for m+ is too powerful. They should increase the number of m+ you need to do to unlock a vault slot (make it 2 like for raid) and make the item you get from the vault the same ilvl as the end of dungeon item and add higher ilvl from higher keys. Sure, people could farm all day to get the highest ilvl gear but with the increased difficulty from higher keys they deserve that gear. Doing a +15 and getting an ilvl278 item feels cheap.

You have also to consider that you get ONE item per week, duplicates may occur and there are 16 slots: by the time you get a full 278 equipped char, the season will be long finished.

But I agree +15 are too easy compared to Mythic raids. The most difficult thing about M+ is form o enter a party, way more than run the dungeon in time, at least up to KSM difficulty level. Also oddly enough the 10-15 bracket is easier than 7-9 bracket due to seasonal affix usually helping instead of being another disadvantage.

[Adamas102]

"The value in it is that a great number of people watch them as a form of entertainment"

This is not a true statement. There is a lot of professional athletes who are sponsered by the state who do not get a lot if any viewers and do not even compete at the top level.

State sponsored athletes are typically Olympians or other international competitors so yes, they're competing at top levels. They don't make as much money in their sports as the more popular ones so the state sponsors them because they essentially act as ambassadors for their country when performing in international competition.

The point being it's still a job which separates it from being simply a game. And again, not applicable to 99.99% of video gamers.

The "problem" with not nudging people into participating in the actual mmo stuff of a mmo is that - as already argued - most people will take the path of least resistance. With that in mind it means most new people or older returning people just wont go through the hazzle of finding a guild to raid with.

Its detrimental to the game overall. I wonder what you think would happen to wow if it did not have any raiding?

From vanilla through WotLK when I did make a point of prioritizing raiding, I'd say at least 50% of the guild wasn't interested in raiding at all. It was more of a social group for them (friends of raiders, people who liked the guild name, etc), and for leveling/dungeon/PVP support. I never said "get rid of raiding" because I disagree with the notion that NO ONE would raid if they could get the gear elsewhere.

It seems the issue is that you see raiding primarily as an obstacle to getting loot, whereas for a lot of people it's simply a fun thing to do with other people. Even if raiding wasn't the only place for getting BiS PVE gear, there would still be a good number of people who would do it since it's a pretty unique gaming experience.

It's also funny that you use the word "hassle" here since I find it ridiculous that you would WANT to make part of your game a hassle by design and then need to "incentivize" people to do it by locking a good portion of the game behind it. The "problem", as you put it, is in the game forcing you to do things that most people don't find fun in order to continue progressing.

As for the 2nd part.

Why dont you start by arguing how any of what i said was projection?

-People, if given the chance, will always take the path of least resistance and as thus not learn or evolve or even have fun
-many people fool themselves into thinking that if they complete lfr and a normal dungeon they completed the game and as thus had fun
-they are robbing themselves of an actual fun and challenging experience
-This is a loser attitude
-People who think like that never evolve and never better themselves
-Always maintaining status quo and never pushing yourself kills the mind and the body

This is all of course based on your personal assumption that how people approach gaming reflects how they approach everything in life. It's simply not the case. Even one person can approach a variety of different games in different ways. Some games I play on the most challenging mode, others I don't. You think every athlete that dedicates much of their life to excelling at their particular sports does the same when they sit down for a game of Monopoly or a few quick battlegrounds or any other leisure time activity? Even the most ultra competitive of people are still going to prioritize some things over others.

I know a lot of very motivated, intelligent, hardworking, and successful people who don't give a rat's ass about challenging themselves with or winning every single game they play. Like I said before, there's nothing wrong with wanting to find challenging games, but don't think for one second that it says anything about you other than "likes to play challenging games".

"There’s absolutely nothing wrong with taking the path of least resistance when playing a game."

This is a loser attitude. I dont mean that as an insult but as a general explanation. People who think like that never evolve and never better themselves. Always maintaining status quo and never pushing yourself kills the mind and the body. People need help to push themselves into being better - for their own sake.

I don't know what you do for work, but often times "the path of least resistance" is the most efficient, optimal, and desirable path to take. This isn't "loser attitude". If anything, I find that people who apply this idea to video games tend to be young (teenage or early 20's) and with very little going for them outside of gaming so they turn "being good at video games" into more than it really is.

I also think it's pretty hilarious to think of WoW as some sort of life training module for bettering one's mind and body. I can see guild/raid leading as a good exercise in management, but optimizing stats based on guides and addons, or learning and executing your 6 button rotation, or improving your hand/eye coordination for moving out of digital fire? This is what you think people need to be pushed to do in order to keep their mind and body sharp? What a joke...

"Whether you think a game is only complete if beaten on the hardest setting is irrelevant."

This whole passive aggressive quote is irrelevant because i never wrote that.

As noted above, you said "many people fool themselves into thinking that if they complete lfr and a normal dungeon they completed the game". The implication being that these things are too easy to count as game completion.

WoW isn't really a game one "completes" anyway. If someone does LFR and normal dungeons and finds that to be adequate for what they want out of the game then that's fine. For others it might be completing the raid on Mythic, or getting the M+15 mount, or achieving Gladiator rank, or crossing out a certain number of achievements. Almost no one does all of these things, but I bet you don't hassle every mythic raider about their PVP rank.

When I said your statement was irrelevant (which isn't really passive aggressive) it was because you're not an authority on telling people how they must play a game in order to have fun.

[ClassicPeon]

State sponsored athletes are typically Olympians or other international competitors so yes, they're competing at top levels. They don't make as much money in their sports as the more popular ones so the state sponsors them because they essentially act as ambassadors for their country when performing in international competition.

The point being it's still a job which separates it from being simply a game. And again, not applicable to 99.99% of video gamers.



From vanilla through WotLK when I did make a point of prioritizing raiding, I'd say at least 50% of the guild wasn't interested in raiding at all. It was more of a social group for them (friends of raiders, people who liked the guild name, etc), and for leveling/dungeon/PVP support. I never said "get rid of raiding" because I disagree with the notion that NO ONE would raid if they could get the gear elsewhere.

It seems the issue is that you see raiding primarily as an obstacle to getting loot, whereas for a lot of people it's simply a fun thing to do with other people. Even if raiding wasn't the only place for getting BiS PVE gear, there would still be a good number of people who would do it since it's a pretty unique gaming experience.

It's also funny that you use the word "hassle" here since I find it ridiculous that you would WANT to make part of your game a hassle by design and then need to "incentivize" people to do it by locking a good portion of the game behind it. The "problem", as you put it, is in the game forcing you to do things that most people don't find fun in order to continue progressing.



-People, if given the chance, will always take the path of least resistance and as thus not learn or evolve or even have fun
-many people fool themselves into thinking that if they complete lfr and a normal dungeon they completed the game and as thus had fun
-they are robbing themselves of an actual fun and challenging experience
-This is a loser attitude
-People who think like that never evolve and never better themselves
-Always maintaining status quo and never pushing yourself kills the mind and the body

This is all of course based on your personal assumption that how people approach gaming reflects how they approach everything in life. It's simply not the case. Even one person can approach a variety of different games in different ways. Some games I play on the most challenging mode, others I don't. You think every athlete that dedicates much of their life to excelling at their particular sports does the same when they sit down for a game of Monopoly or a few quick battlegrounds or any other leisure time activity? Even the most ultra competitive of people are still going to prioritize some things over others.

I know a lot of very motivated, intelligent, hardworking, and successful people who don't give a rat's ass about challenging themselves with or winning every single game they play. Like I said before, there's nothing wrong with wanting to find challenging games, but don't think for one second that it says anything about you other than "likes to play challenging games".



I don't know what you do for work, but often times "the path of least resistance" is the most efficient, optimal, and desirable path to take. This isn't "loser attitude". If anything, I find that people who apply this idea to video games tend to be young (teenage or early 20's) and with very little going for them outside of gaming so they turn "being good at video games" into more than it really is.

I also think it's pretty hilarious to think of WoW as some sort of life training module for bettering one's mind and body. I can see guild/raid leading as a good exercise in management, but optimizing stats based on guides and addons, or learning and executing your 6 button rotation, or improving your hand/eye coordination for moving out of digital fire? This is what you think people need to be pushed to do in order to keep their mind and body sharp? What a joke...



As noted above, you said "many people fool themselves into thinking that if they complete lfr and a normal dungeon they completed the game". The implication being that these things are too easy to count as game completion.

WoW isn't really a game one "completes" anyway. If someone does LFR and normal dungeons and finds that to be adequate for what they want out of the game then that's fine. For others it might be completing the raid on Mythic, or getting the M+15 mount, or achieving Gladiator rank, or crossing out a certain number of achievements. Almost no one does all of these things, but I bet you don't hassle every mythic raider about their PVP rank.

When I said your statement was irrelevant (which isn't really passive aggressive) it was because you're not an authority on telling people how they must play a game in order to have fun.

Speaking just for my country we sponsor a lot of up and coming professionals, youths and so on. I'd wager most people getting sponsered are not anywhere near top level.

Its kind of an irrelevant discussion though because the reason for the comparison was to show the massive leap between high and low end.

"It seems the issue is that you see raiding primarily as an obstacle to getting loot,"

I dont know where you are getting this information from but i havent said anything of the sort and its nowhere near the truth. Are you grapsing for air here or whats your reason for making up disingenuous things about me? Cant you just stick to what you know?

"It's also funny that you use the word "hassle" here since I find it ridiculous that you would WANT to make part of your game a hassle by design"

I dont think it was ever the intention of making it a hassle? I havent said that? Once again just randomly assigning viewpoitns to me that i havent expressed at all. These are so easily dismissed so whats even the point of making them? Like for real? Stick to what you know? Its not that hard bro.

Raiding being a hassle to setup is obviously not the intention but there is no way around it. You cant force people to join a raiding group, you cant force them to stay. Sometimes you either have to recruit or stop raiding. It is what it is - a hassle.

"This is all of course based on your personal assumption that how people approach gaming reflects how they approach everything in life. It's simply not the case."

1. Thats not the definition of projecting - "Ed, LCSW, projection refers to unconsciously taking unwanted emotions or traits you don't like about yourself and attributing them to someone else." You havent in any shape or form argued that i'm doing that.
2. I havent said this applies to all aspects of their life. I've said if you do this - you wont ever evolve and get to be a better version of yourself - and thats the truth.

"I don't know what you do for work, but often times "the path of least resistance"

The path of least resistance specifically refers to trying to find a way around work instead of doing the work. Its not about trying to optimize. I'm a software engineer.

"WoW isn't really a game one "completes" anyway."

You literally made the case for me right here. Also you failed to address my last and possibly most important argument:

"There is a difference between your boolean view on things like forcing people into specific content - and the reality where giving people incentives to do things help them push themselves if they want to. Remember how my argument was about incentives from the start?"

[Adamas102]

Speaking just for my country we sponsor a lot of up and coming professionals, youths and so on. I'd wager most people getting sponsered are not anywhere near top level.

Its kind of an irrelevant discussion though because the reason for the comparison was to show the massive leap between high and low end.

Solo players vs group content players isn't in any rational way comparable to toddlers vs professional athletes unless you're just trying to be a troll. I also think the comparison to athletes is silly since it plays into the inflated sense of self worth that a lot of folks on this forum put on "high end gaming". I've raided near the top level and enjoy participating in the game's challenging content, it's not an impressive feat comparable to being a paid athlete.

"This is all of course based on your personal assumption that how people approach gaming reflects how they approach everything in life. It's simply not the case."

1. Thats not the definition of projecting - "Ed, LCSW, projection refers to unconsciously taking unwanted emotions or traits you don't like about yourself and attributing them to someone else." You havent in any shape or form argued that i'm doing that.
2. I havent said this applies to all aspects of their life. I've said if you do this - you wont ever evolve and get to be a better version of yourself - and thats the truth.

The bolded is EXACTLY what you're doing when you express the idea that people playing a game a certain way have "a loser attitude", aren't REALLY having fun, and are missing out on a "better version of [themselves]". You call it truth but they're all beliefs you've formulated for yourself based on what YOU desire out of gaming. They're not universal, and yet you project those negative values onto players who don't participate in the game the way you think they should.

The inflated value you put in gaming (both the positive and negative aspects) are personal to you, not to everyone who plays the game.

"I don't know what you do for work, but often times "the path of least resistance"

The path of least resistance specifically refers to trying to find a way around work instead of doing the work. Its not about trying to optimize. I'm a software engineer.

Uh, no. The term doesn't ascribe value to the term "resistance", though typically unnecessary resistance is referred to negatively (hence, path of least resistance is a positive). Note, LEAST resistance, not NO resistance. If you want to make the assumption that ALL work (or resistance), no matter how cumbersome or unnecessary, is good then that's up to you, but that's not what the term means. Do you force yourself to do all math problems in your head because using a calculator makes it too easy? Odds are most of the things you do in life involve taking the path of least resistance because added hassle kills time and productivity.

The reason this isn't particularly relevant to gaming is because at its roots the goal is fun, not optimization. Some people prefer to play "easy" games, others prefer to play more challenging ones. There's no value to either beyond whether those people got entertainment from the time they spent. If you enjoy more resistance, then that's on you. Again, you're projecting the idea of less resistance being negative and therefore undesirable when in fact it's not a universally held idea and certainly not something that dictates the quality of a gaming experience.

"There is a difference between your boolean view on things like forcing people into specific content - and the reality where giving people incentives to do things help them push themselves if they want to. Remember how my argument was about incentives from the start?"

The only reason these discussion come up is because of the TYPES of incentives. WoW is fundamentally a game that revolves around character progression. It's not that players are forced so much as they're given little choice in how they can progress their character when they've reached a certain point. You argue that incentivizing hassles like guild and raid formation is a good thing because it keeps the game an MMO, but I disagree with the two underlying points; A. that no one would raid if the gear progression incentives weren't there and B. that player interaction would cease to exist without said incentivized group content.

The idea that people ONLY do challenging content if given a reward incentive is also incorrect. Most games with difficulty tiers don't give increased rewards for added difficulty. Additional difficulty was simply there for people who wanted the extra challenge, and people who played these games on easy or normal or whatever weren't deprived of anything.

[ClassicPeon]

Snip.

Solo players vs group content players isn't in any rational way comparable to toddlers vs professional athletes unless you're just trying to be a troll. I also think the comparison to athletes is silly since it plays into the inflated sense of self worth that a lot of folks on this forum put on "high end gaming

once again you are ignoring the argument and focusing about that one piece of information you disagree with. Instead of jsut taking the comparison for what it is you refuse to aknowledge it for what it is - and argue semantics.

Instead of actually arguing against it you just opinionate against it and demean me. "i think, i think, i think - you are". None of those are argument just statements of your emotions.

I've raided near the top level and enjoy participating in the game's challenging content, it's not an impressive feat

Mhm. Ofcourse you did. You raided top end and you definitely know what thats like which is why you are now talking it down.

The bolded is EXACTLY what you're doing when you express the idea that people playing a game a certain way have "a loser attitude", aren't REALLY having fun, and are missing out on a "better version of [themselves]". You call it truth but they're all beliefs you've formulated for yourself based on what YOU desire out of gaming. They're not universal, and yet you project those negative values onto players who don't participate in the game the way you think they should.

The inflated value you put in gaming (both the positive and negative aspects) are personal to you, not to everyone who plays the game.

Actually no. You are conflating having an opinion about something as projecting. If i was projecting that playing the game a certain way is a loser attitude, what it would actually mean was that I had the loser attitude in my own mind. And while you are free to think that you havent made a single argument towards that. Which is what i was asking for.

Uh, no. The term doesn't ascribe value to the term "resistance", though typically unnecessary resistance is referred to negatively (hence, path of least resistance is a positive). Note, LEAST resistance, not NO resistance. If you want to make the assumption that ALL work (or resistance), no matter how cumbersome or unnecessary, is good then that's up to you, but that's not what the term means. Do you force yourself to do all math problems in your head because using a calculator makes it too easy? Odds are most of the things you do in life involve taking the path of least resistance because added hassle kills time and productivity.

Honestly man the least you could do is look up the term before just spouting random shit.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dict...%20resistance:

"to choose the easiest way to do something instead of trying to choose the best way"

A. that no one would raid if the gear progression incentives weren't there and

Once again for no apparent reason, with no argument you presume to attribute values and quotes to me that i havent expressed at all.

B. that player interaction would cease to exist without said incentivized group content.

Another wrong quote, this time made as a huge overstatement.

The idea that people ONLY do challenging content if given a reward incentive is also incorrect.

And another one

Most games with difficulty tiers don't give increased rewards for added difficulty.

Many games do, many games dont. Most online games do if they have a competitive aspect to reward and incentivise striving to be the best you can.

[Easyclassictopkeklel]

I think it is fine for mythic raiders to live with their choice and stand by it (to raid mythic) and the world should not revolve and/or evolve around them.

M+ should be accessible content for more people and not just a side game of mythic raiders that got depraved of loot during raids.

The logic is simple really:

Raid gear is exclusive to raiders
M+ gear is (almost exclusive) to raiders
General pvp gear is subject to mindless grind
Elite pvp gear is exlusive to raiders due to the overgearing gap that allows them to progress faster.

Add to this that raiders also sell the boosts so there you go.

While that works well for raiders, there is the vast majority who also pay a sub and should get something better than the leftovers or be obliged to buy boosts.

M+ should be attractive because its fun not because its an alternative gearing method for raiders.

TLDR: If someone wants to be a raider they should stick to it and get raid gear as it was the case with WoW until M+ appeared.

What are you even talking about? Mythic+ is accessible as it gets, playing level 15 keys which offer you same rewards than highkeys is pretty easy and I know a lot of people who do not raid or only raid in pugs but mostly play mythic+. Also you seem to like to blame raiders for everything, which is a bit pathetic. Ofc people who want to minmax everything out of a game for best progression will play EVERY content which offers a benefit. But how is this affecting YOU in a negative way?
If you just dont enjoy the concept of m+ just face the reality that maybe this isn't the game for you. Because you can say a lot about shadowlands but it gave people who aren't into raiding the most opportunities ever...like people here still complain about tierset while you can loot it from dungeons/pvp chest, raid AND after progression you can craft 1 piece weekly. Idk what people want, next time probably just put vendors into the game where you can get sets for free instantly.

TLDR: Your theory that m+ is almost exclusive to raiders is bs. It is an alternative for many people who do not want to commit to raiding schedules and the people complaining about m+ are usually the ones who don't like it or the ones who complain about r.io and not getting invited to keys. And the main problem here are the players themselves.

[Soon-TM]

I'm a firm believer that mythic raids should be tuned for maxed out heroic gear and o ly provide cosmetic rewards. Tune the fights so tight that one mistake is a wipe.

I actually like this idea a lot.

[ClassicPeon]

Needless agressiveness and intolerance of a different opinion is at the core of the problems I was describing. Thanks for proving my point.

The problem is that there are a lot of leaps in your "logic". You dont argue your case you just present it as logical.

For instance:
"I think it is fine for mythic raiders to live with their choice and stand by it".

This makes no sense unless you think it somehow means they leave something else out. And you havent argued why or what it is they leave out.

[Tojara]

Regardless of what people think, I personally think the Catalyst system in theory is really good. Prior to this patch I could take or leave tier sets, because I personally didn't like the design that more of our gear slots were just automatically going to be locked into these slots.

Catalysts by their design alleviate this problem as you're always hunting for a better base to improve upon, making gear acquisition not as strict. The brilliance of them introducing it both to M+ and PvP at the same time, all the while allowing us to individually improve the tier sets as we go throughout the season is just great.

The only issue with this system is the actual timing. Two months is way too long. I don't think people should be getting all of their tier at the start of a patch, but the length that we have to wait in a system where you can already improve the iLvL by doing higher content seems a little silly. If the Catalyst system as a whole was pushed forward a month earlier and next week was when we got our third or fourth charge, I would guess this patch would be received even better. The inherent rub at the moment is that the RNG is a bit too wide for the power tier sets provide, and a lot of people feel like they're playing a completely different game compared to those that got lucky with tier sets immediately.

So to me I think tier should literally just be a staple of every single major raiding patch, with a maximum time line being about a month to artificially acquire it through baseline systems. Yes effort and RNG should play a roll in getting it quicker (more vault options, actually playing the game and raiding), but a time frame of three months is a bit long. I just don't see an issue structuring it in this fashion if we live in a system where someone can take world quest gear or LFR gear and turn it into tier, while somebody else doing gladiator level PvP or raiding can have the same set bonuses, yet 30-40 iLvLs higher.

[ClassicPeon]

Let me try and elaborate:

Mythic raiders content is almost exclusive. I certainly can’t step in it and so many others. So that’s gear that’s raiders only. Regardless if I am skilled or know the mechanics I don’t have the required raiding resume.

Elite pvp gear is also “pvp players only”. So that’s also gear for a specific segment of players. Again a pvp resume is required.

Then we get the “intermediate” tier where both pvp and pve players and casuals come to play. And this is where it gets ugly:

A. The raider needs their M+ gear to push raid
B. The pvp player needs their M+ gear to push pvp
C. The average Joe just wanted to play a game of some challenge.

A and B crash the m+ by their needs and start arbitrarily putting gates like “have rio/have gear/have this/have that.

So we end up with the core game not allowing alts or new players or even casuals to have access to anything and then we sell boosts to them.

Accessibility of the game is zero. If I am casual and must wait two months before I can craft 1 tier per week then I am always behind those who are organized and rule the game tier after tier expansion after expansion.

The joy of WoW is for a select few the rest of the players are literally cannon fodder.

It’s not a matter of play more earn more. The game favors the old organized groups and everyone else just buys boosts.

As a pvp player who has made huge effort to RBG for many years I can tell you safely: No one who wasn’t playing RBG in WoD can enter the game today and have success. We literally can’t replace players if we lose one these days.

Anyway I can’t explain it much better just saying that the game is totally inaccessible regardless of what they claim to give as access.

Ok so here is the truth about playing m+ as a casual, soloplayer.

If you do it as a dps, and you dont play much, its gonna suck. You are gonna have to wait to get groups, you are gonna take longer to build up your score making it take longer to get into groups and so on. But thats the best flawed system we can make atm. if you have a better idea bring it forth.

You can however just play a healer or at least something with a healer offspec, choose one of the easier heal weeks and basically get free rio score. I'm not memeing or joking here most groups really do not need a lot of healing in the less intensive heal weeks. And you aint going to have to wait long for a group either.

You can also rol la tank and get instant groups 24/7 to whatever dungeon you sign up for almost. This can be a toxic experience if you are not willing to put in some effort to make proper pulls and such though. Its basically a much higher payoff but for more effort.


The game is meant to be played with friends though. Try and find a guild and get some equally minded people to play with - its going to be a completely different experience for you

[Celement]

I think an issue is just how powerful tier is now. I recall it being something like 5% more crit or extra mana not 20% more damage.

If they make it so impactful it should be easy to get early. That said I'm not sure it should be that big of an upgrade.

[Adamas102]

once again you are ignoring the argument and focusing about that one piece of information you disagree with. Instead of jsut taking the comparison for what it is you refuse to aknowledge it for what it is - and argue semantics.

Instead of actually arguing against it you just opinionate against it and demean me. "i think, i think, i think - you are". None of those are argument just statements of your emotions.

You have no argument. You presented a hyperbolic comparison, and I pointed out that it was ridiculous. Your only response was essentially "it makes sense if you think about the comparison". It doesn't because the difference between people who do repetitive grinds in one game vs another isn't anywhere close to toddlers vs professional athletes.

Mhm. Ofcourse you did. You raided top end and you definitely know what thats like which is why you are now talking it down.

My only assumption is that you must have very little gaming experience if you think challenging WoW content is particularly impressive. It really isn't.

WoW's upper PVE difficulties mostly revolve around repetition, group consistency, and gearing to balance out bigger HP and damage numbers. There's no thinking outside the box because encounters are scripted with very specific abilities and phases.

Actually no. You are conflating having an opinion about something as projecting. If i was projecting that playing the game a certain way is a loser attitude, what it would actually mean was that I had the loser attitude in my own mind. And while you are free to think that you havent made a single argument towards that. Which is what i was asking for.

No, psychological projection is simply projection of one's own experience onto others. It can be done out of empathy or, in the narrow definition you're trying to use, as a defensive mechanism of blame shifting. You're not simply having an opinion when you say "that's the truth" and claim that what someone else experiences isn't true if it doesn't align with what you believe they should experience. That's projection.

Honestly man the least you could do is look up the term before just spouting random shit.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dict...%20resistance:

"to choose the easiest way to do something instead of trying to choose the best way"

That pathetically terse "definition" should tell you immediately that Merriam Webster is NOT the best source for looking up idioms. Perhaps you should take your own advice and dig deeper into the uses of that phrase instead of relying on a one sentence "definition" that doesn't even cover its use in areas such as physics for explaining simple systems. Even in this barebones definition there is no assumption that the easiest way cannot be the best way as well. For example, if you need to get to the other side of a mountain, going around it would be considered the path of least resistance while going over it wouldn't necessarily be the best way even though it's more difficult.

Again, this assumption stems from your notion that challenge is always good. And again, we're talking about gaming where challenge (or resistance) is neither good nor bad nor "the best way", but rather simply preference.

Once again for no apparent reason, with no argument you presume to attribute values and quotes to me that i havent expressed at all.

Another wrong quote, this time made as a huge overstatement.

And another one.

Sounds like you need to go back and reread some of your own posts because you most definitely connect incentives to get people into raiding as necessary for the game to remain an MMO.Here, I'll help you since you seem to be confused.

The "problem" with not nudging people into participating in the actual mmo stuff of a mmo is that ... most new people or older returning people just wont go through the hazzle of finding a guild to raid with.

If people like doing fun group content with their friends or with a large group of people, then they will gravitate towards forming/joining guilds that do that with or without incentives. Your assumption is also that specific forms of group content (what you call "actual mmo stuff") is what constitutes an MMO, which is incorrect.

I did but your point is irrelevant when it ruins the actual idea of this game being an mmo. If people can get the best gear for solo content from solo content, they are not incentivised to do anything in line with group content - effectively making it a solo game.

Again, your incorrect assumption that players who enjoy playing with a group need reward incentives in order to play with a group. If the group content is fun, then people who enjoy playing with a group will do so. Getting good gear from solo content wouldn't suddenly turn off the social aspects that people find in the game.

If you play the game solely as a single player game you have no need to interact with anyone and as thus the mmo part disapears.

MMO denotes a game where a large number of players engage in a persistent online world. I've already explained how even as a player who nowadays typically gravitates towards content that doesn't require group time commitments (solo and queued play), there is still plenty of interaction with other players. Even if raiding were completely removed (more drastic that simply disincentivizing it) the game would still be an MMO and people would still find ways to interact.

Your ideas aren't being misrepresented (the quotes are right there for all to see), but if you want to play that card then there's no point in continuing to respond.

[ClassicPeon]

SNIP

You have no argument.

This sums up everything you have said in all your posts to me :P

Not a single place - not ONE single place - do you provide a source for your assumptions.

Its impossible to have an actual discussion when your idea of an argument is: "NUR I AM RIGHT" lol

[chiddie]

This sums up everything you have said in all your posts to me :P

Not a single place - not ONE single place - do you provide a source for your assumptions.

Its impossible to have an actual discussion when your idea of an argument is: "NUR I AM RIGHT" lol

Dude, he thinks that there’s no need to incentivize group content, you think there’s no need to incentivize solo content, there’s not much more to say, you’ll never converge.

But whatever the faction, one thing is 100% true: if the game NEEDS to “over incentivize” you to do a SPECIFIC activity you wouldn’t do else, it means that that activity is not fun. Be it multi or single player related.

[Skildar]

Ok so here is the truth about playing m+ as a casual, soloplayer.

If you do it as a dps, and you dont play much, its gonna suck. You are gonna have to wait to get groups, you are gonna take longer to build up your score making it take longer to get into groups and so on. But thats the best flawed system we can make atm. if you have a better idea bring it forth.

You can however just play a healer or at least something with a healer offspec, choose one of the easier heal weeks and basically get free rio score. I'm not memeing or joking here most groups really do not need a lot of healing in the less intensive heal weeks. And you aint going to have to wait long for a group either.

You can also rol la tank and get instant groups 24/7 to whatever dungeon you sign up for almost. This can be a toxic experience if you are not willing to put in some effort to make proper pulls and such though. Its basically a much higher payoff but for more effort.


The game is meant to be played with friends though. Try and find a guild and get some equally minded people to play with - its going to be a completely different experience for you

Playing a dps spec in MM+ dungeons and trying to join a group of a +18 dungeon you've already completed in both fortified 17 and tyrannical 17 is as painful as trying to sway people while having a speech impediment.

Whereas if you play a tabk spec and haven't completed a the dungeon once in 15, you still get accepted into 18 keys

I've given up on playing unholy in dungeons for that sole reason

[ClassicPeon]

Dude, he thinks that there’s no need to incentivize group content, you think there’s no need to incentivize solo content, there’s not much more to say, you’ll never converge.

But whatever the faction, one thing is 100% true: if the game NEEDS to “over incentivize” you to do a SPECIFIC activity you wouldn’t do else, it means that that activity is not fun. Be it multi or single player related.

In some way or form most games incentivize doing specific things. In games where you have choices about what to do at least. Its not inherently a bad thing for the developers to try and steer their players. In the case of mmo's its a sad truth that many mmos have been prioritising smaller and smaller group content/solo content to the extend that some of them are basically single player games with a world chat.

The idea of an mmo being a social game where teamwork is at the front is no longer the case for most "mmo'.

Anyway the idea of incenivizing things like raids or dungeons is to show people how fun it ca nbe in a premade group enviroment with people you know/are friends with. Thats literally the thing that made wow massive back in the day.

Edit:
Oh and as for the opinion vs opinion thing - thats not why i stopped arguing with him. He started attributing things to me that i never said, exaggerating things i said, dismissing factual definitions of words and all this without providing any counter argument to them other then "nope i am right". When people do that you cant have a proper discussion with them.

[Progenitor Aquarius]

You will be able to craft them soon.

[Adamas102]

This sums up everything you have said in all your posts to me :P

Not a single place - not ONE single place - do you provide a source for your assumptions.

Its impossible to have an actual discussion when your idea of an argument is: "NUR I AM RIGHT" lol

About the response I'd expect from you after you're proved wrong by your own quotes. But go ahead and keep thinking you're the authority on how MMO's should be played, the reality will remain that no one else cares because they're too busy finding their own ways to have fun.

[chiddie]

In some way or form most games incentivize doing specific things. In games where you have choices about what to do at least. Its not inherently a bad thing for the developers to try and steer their players. In the case of mmo's its a sad truth that many mmos have been prioritising smaller and smaller group content/solo content to the extend that some of them are basically single player games with a world chat.

The idea of an mmo being a social game where teamwork is at the front is no longer the case for most "mmo'.

Anyway the idea of incenivizing things like raids or dungeons is to show people how fun it ca nbe in a premade group enviroment with people you know/are friends with. Thats literally the thing that made wow massive back in the day.

Edit:
Oh and as for the opinion vs opinion thing - thats not why i stopped arguing with him. He started attributing things to me that i never said, exaggerating things i said, dismissing factual definitions of words and all this without providing any counter argument to them other then "nope i am right". When people do that you cant have a proper discussion with them.

I think that the “real” problem is not incentivize group content, is more, for Blizzard, make grouping faster and easier.

A lot of people me included would love to do M+ but they can’t afford to waste half of their play time to find or form a group.