In Defense of Difficulty

[shoc]

WoW is doing this right now. Look at the RWF.

Elden Ring has sold well over 10 million copies in a few months. Divinity OS 2 is widely considered the greatest CRPG of all time and made bank.

Elden Ring is not a great example as its the easiest and most accessible souls game to date.

[Tyris Flare]

To counter this, I will respond with a paraphrased quote from a musician I used to play in bands with:

"You can record 50 minutes of a dog farting on a snare drum, and you can call it art and someone will think you are a genius. But you can't do that and then demand venues book you or record labels fund you."

Good thing this isn't what the post is about. Unless you are claiming that games like Elden Ring and Divinity OS 2 are massive failures. Or that what you really want to see in gaming is more meddling on behalf of executives.

[Gaidax]

Yeah okay OP, you somehow assume that what YOU (might) want is what so called "fans" want.

Time and time again, when Blizzard went forward to make what would be a casual activity harder - they suffered a well documented blowback. So people like you should realize already - FAR from everyone wants "challenge" in their basic daily shopping list or that mandatory activity everyone has to do at least once or twice like leveling.

It's nothing to do with "suits", that's some lazy ass excuse. It has all to do with playerbase playing the game, it's not a Souls game - it's World of Warcraft and it always was a casual no bullshit MMO fix for vast majority of its population.

People who want challenge - have plenty of it in various endgame game modes, even player agency aside.

[Tyris Flare]

Elden Ring is not a great example as its the easiest and most accessible souls game to date.

It is a perfect example. It's a game without quest markers lmao.

Like, it is clearly the developer's vision for what a game should be, which is the whole point. That doesn't mean making a game for 100 people.

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Yeah okay OP, you somehow assume that what YOU (might) want is what so called "fans" want.

Time and time again, when Blizzard went forward to make what would be a casual activity harder - they suffered a well documented blowback. So people like you should realize already - FAR from everyone wants "challenge" in their basic daily shopping list or that mandatory activity everyone has to do at least once or twice like leveling.

It's nothing to do with "suits", that's some lazy ass excuse. It has all to do with playerbase playing the game, it's not a Souls game - it's World of Warcraft and it always was a casual no bullshit MMO fix for vast majority of its population.

People who want challenge - have plenty of it in various endgame game modes, even player agency aside.

I literally said in the post that I personally disagree with the emphasis they place on RWF and similar stuff. I think the game is too difficult.

Like, what atrocious reading comprehension.

I mean I specifically saluted posters like Kryiani who give earnest takes on what they want in a game (easy) compared to the endless nonsense of posters like Ninespine who dress up their own desires in rationalizations about shoulds and oughts.

[Gaidax]

It is a perfect example. It's a game without quest markers lmao.

Like, it is clearly the developer's vision for what a game should be, which is the whole point. That doesn't mean making a game for 100 people.

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I literally said in the post that I personally disagree with the emphasis they place on RWF and similar stuff. I think the game is too difficult.

Like, what atrocious reading comprehension.

And WoW has no vision?

You compare some game that's barely out what 1 month and might not be there in 1 year to a game that rocks the world for 17 years and counting?

Whom are you even fucking kidding with your nonsense?

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I literally said in the post that I personally disagree with the emphasis they place on RWF and similar stuff. I think the game is too difficult.

Like, what atrocious reading comprehension.

See here's your problem - you see only polar opposites, you just forget that there is PLENTY game modes in between of varying difficulty.

Guess what WoW is not either "Goldshire" -OR- straight to "Mythic Halondrus". There is plenty of fix for everyone in-between, which is what this game is about 17 years and counting.

This is why it is so massive and not Dark Souls.

[Tyris Flare]

And WoW has no vision?

You compare some game that's barely out what 1 month and might not be there in 1 year to a game that rocks the world for 17 years and counting?

Whom are you even fucking kidding with your nonsense?

Maybe read the post? I am defending the current WoW developers vision for the game, even if it is not my vision. They clearly want to make a game like it is now - a game where the RWF is important and there is a lot of very difficult content. A game where it takes the biggest nerds in the world a month to clear the Jailer. A game that does not make as much money as it conceivably could because it is not trying to be everything for everyone.

This is a rebuttal to the endless nonsense we get on these forums from people who apparently want Activision executives to take a more active role in game development and water down the game to where the highest difficulty is normal mode.

[Clash the DK]

Elden Ring has sold well over 10 million copies in a few months.

MMO's and single player games are two very different beasts. You cannot compare them whatsoever.

[Gaidax]

Maybe read the post? I am defending the current WoW developers vision for the game, even if it is not my vision. They clearly want to make a game like it is now - a game where the RWF is important and there is a lot of very difficult content. A game where it takes the biggest nerds in the world a month to clear the Jailer. A game that does not make as much money as it conceivably could because it is not trying to be everything for everyone.

This is a rebuttal to the endless nonsense we get on these forums from people who apparently want Activision executives to take a more active role in game development and water down the game to where the highest difficulty is normal mode.

But you have no fucking clue what that developer vision is???

You just assume you know. Heck, which developer, pray tell? What do you think, it's some hive mind there?

You're basically doing what every stock MMO-C troll does every other thread - takes their biggest personal subjective pet peeve, wraps it into "fans want"/"developer vision" bullshit foil and tries to serve it as some sort of a dish.

And if it all becomes too apparent, then worry not - can always invoke the magic word "investors" and "suits" to get some circlejerk going.


Sorry matey, been there done that. I'm enough in this forum to see this BS for what it is.

[LordVargK]

What exactly is your point? The game should be difficult because shareholders are evil? The game IS the most difficult it ever was.

The problem is that this difficulty is not rewarded. At +15 mythic instance is less difficult than a normal raid. And it offers loot on a heroic raid level for completion and of mythic raid level once a week.

Raiding at this point in the game is basically an end in itself, which I have no problem with on mythic raid level. But on normal and heroic it's not a good feeling to get stuck until you outgear the encounter because you spammed m+. Yes, I know that my raidgroup is not the best. But in the past we've always cleared heroic before the next patch (even in Nathria, although only once). And I can't see us do it this time. Anduin alone is much too difficult, even on normal.

[Celement]

There are certainly innumerable games whose challenge level never rises above the challenge level of leveling and world quests in wow, which are activities that you constantly decry of being void of challenge.

Yes they also are f2p and facebook games. Games with a entry fee according to steam charts at least are not nearly successful

[LordVargK]

WoW is doing this right now. Look at the RWF.

Elden Ring has sold well over 10 million copies in a few months. Divinity OS 2 is widely considered the greatest CRPG of all time and made bank.

Elden Ring will not be played by over a million people monthly in 10 years.

[shoc]

Greater challenge = wider appeal is a failed hypothesis, hard mode-try hard gaming is very niche. Why do you think Activision-Blizzard bought King (Candy Crush) for nearly $6 billion dollars? They alone boasted 500 million active users. The global mobile game market makes the PC/MMO market look like an insignificant ant.

A simplified version of WoW on mobile that plays like Genshin Impact would be a much better way to achieve wider appeal.

[Jessicka]

Greater challenge = wider appeal is a failed hypothesis, hard mode-try hard gaming is very niche. Why do you think Activision-Blizzard bought King (Candy Crush) for nearly $6 billion dollars? They alone boasted 500 million active users. The global mobile game market makes the PC/MMO market look like an insignificant ant.

A simplified version of WoW on mobile that plays like Genshin Impact would be a much better way to achieve wider appeal.

That there are Gatcha games that do daily chores better than WoW, and have mechanisms to skip them, tells you everything about Blizzard’s development.

[Celement]

Elden Ring is not a great example as its the easiest and most accessible souls game to date.

Why do people think that just because a is easier the b it means making something for paint drinking Peter will be even more profitable?

It doesn't work on a curve....

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Greater challenge = wider appeal is a failed hypothesis, hard mode-try hard gaming is very niche. Why do you think Activision-Blizzard bought King (Candy Crush) for nearly $6 billion dollars? They alone boasted 500 million active users. The global mobile game market makes the PC/MMO market look like an insignificant ant.

A simplified version of WoW on mobile that plays like Genshin Impact would be a much better way to achieve wider appeal.

Have you noticed how none of those cow clicker games are buy to play...?

The market wow is competing in isn't the same ones cow clickers survive in.

[Beefhammer]

Remove gear rewards from hardcore content like m+ and mythic raids. Have them reward cool cosmetics instead. Also remove gear rewards from brain dead difficulties like LFR.

Also bring back badge gear. Mythic raids and m+ could easily be the best source of badges.

Been a proponent of this for years now to mostly laughs everywhere. Just like How Trial of the Gladiator would have made PvP all about skill rather than being about gear, it would have made Mythic/Mythic+ be about skill.

[NineSpine]

Good thing this isn't what the post is about. Unless you are claiming that games like Elden Ring and Divinity OS 2 are massive failures. Or that what you really want to see in gaming is more meddling on behalf of executives.

Elden Ring isn't intended to keep individual players engaged for years. Plus, everything in the game can be overpowered through leaving and coming back later with more power. It's a silly comparison.

Divinity OS 2 is one of my favorite games, and is incredibly easy on the classic difficulty (and even easier below that). The first couple of hours CAN be rough, but the game basically gets easier as it goes and by Act 2 it's pretty simple.

What I want to see and what is feasible in reality aren't always the same thing, which is a lesson you need on this topic. I'd like a brand new vanilla-wow-style old school MMO, but I'm not a delusional narcissist so I understand that the budget to make a niche product like that doesn't exist and it isn't a realistic ask. You are demanding a fringe, niche product with a massive budget and AAA quality. Sorry, that's not the real world.

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Yes they also are f2p and facebook games. Games with a entry fee according to steam charts at least are not nearly successful

Most AAA games are no harder than WoW leveling and world quests, especially considering most of them have easy modes.

You are wildly overestimating the difficulty of the average game.

[Celement]

Elden Ring isn't intended to keep individual players engaged for years. Plus, everything in the game can be overpowered through leaving and coming back later with more power. It's a silly comparison.

Divinity OS 2 is one of my favorite games, and is incredibly easy on the classic difficulty (and even easier below that). The first couple of hours CAN be rough, but the game basically gets easier as it goes and by Act 2 it's pretty simple.

What I want to see and what is feasible in reality aren't always the same thing, which is a lesson you need on this topic. I'd like a brand new vanilla-wow-style old school MMO, but I'm not a delusional narcissist so I understand that the budget to make a niche product like that doesn't exist and it isn't a realistic ask. You are demanding a fringe, niche product with a massive budget and AAA quality. Sorry, that's not the real world.

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Most AAA games are no harder than WoW leveling and world quests, especially considering most of them have easy modes.

You are wildly overestimating the difficulty of the average game.

Let's have fun with this.. name 5.

[NineSpine]

Let's have fun with this.. name 5.

You want me to name 5 games that have easy modes? Seriously?

[Garymorilix]

I don't know where this argument comes from but the general mythic (or anything hard difficulty) hater crowd is only hating on the game because they can't get the best gear for free.

I don't think I've actually met a player in-game that did semi-HC content and whined about how unfair Mythic was.
They know their place.
It's not like some people are magically excluded from doing whatever difficulty content they want to. Everyone can do whatever they want IF THEY COMMIT.

Blizzard is not promoting Mythic raiding or doing 15+ (or even 20+) content to the masses as it is something that everyone should be able to casually do.
They don't even sponsor the RTWF, it is an entirely community driven event.

Since M+ was added to the game people of all kind are free to play the difficulty they want. There you can get the gear appropriate for the difficulty you are doing and you can keep progressing until you hit the wall where only doing harder things will net you an upgrade.
It is quite healthy.

What I see most of the time is players who have trouble doing entry level content demand some sort of compensation for their inability with mythic level gear, which just doesn't make sense to me.
Not only did they no do content appropriate for such reward (like expecting raid gear back in early WoW without doing raids at all) BUT they don't actually do any type of content where they might even need that gear in the first place.
Like, doing LFR is free, doing Normal is not meant to be a fulfilling experience for people in mythic level gear.

I don't get why people are so entitled for gear.

[Celement]

You want me to name 5 games that have easy modes? Seriously?

No I want you to name 5 games as easy as wows leveling that are AAA.

Please do go on I'm waiting with baited breath.