Horde Evil/Honorable Balance?

[LordVargK]

I'd actually argue that focusing on the faction leaders rather than the 'world' and more ground-level characters is the bigger mistake.

I agree that faction leaders should stop being the villains, but that doesn't mean we should forget about the factions (And blizz isn't likely to given they put so much into branding and marketing and merchandising around them) But Blizz needs to take steps to make the factions LIKEABLE again.

Not forgetting about factions, no. But not making them the main focus of expansions. Develop them in new zones or by revamping old zones one by one, like cata but slower. Not everything has to be a full high end area. What's stopping Blizzard from implementing a questline, where Loch Modan dam is being rebuild? Could be a max level quest, giving some minor form of currency, could also be a quest you get after completing the major questlines in that zone. You don't have to invent much, you don't need to make this a zone like Korthia or ZM. A simple questline, much like the Nightwarrior one, just without any relevance to the current main plot.
BElves get one next patch, DI Dwarfs, too. Do that for every race, bit for bit. Bigger events involving multiple races/factions can still have more screentime.

But to be a realistic world, every race must have their own, independant agency. Currently the Stormwind humans decide all diplomacy for Dwarfs, Night- and Voidelves, gnomes, Gilneans, Kultiran and Draenai. And Trolls, Tauren, Goblins, Vulpera, Nightborne and Bloodelves were represented by either Orcs or Sylvanas.

And as long as player factions exist the story can't be told in a reasonable way. Players are the only reason the Horde is still united. And the Alliance leaders must be written like fools to keep it that way.

[Skytotem]

I think Thrall's Horde in WC3 was fine. If they really wanted to add some internal conflicts they could kept the the underground demon worshipping storyline going. They can also make use of the Old Horde that still exists today too.

The issue is those need to update a bit over the time, there's no reason for Thrall to be ineffectual in dealing with the Burning Blade and Old Horde, he can solve those problems... but then we need to see the fallout and the benefits from that (Ex: Horde warlocks that are not legion worshippers being addressed, Blackrocks joining the Horde) and negative effects (Reckless, albeit well meaning magic use causing problems, and conflict between the blackrocks and the other members of the Horde, questions of territory in the EK, etc...)

[Clone]

The issue is those need to update a bit over the time, there's no reason for Thrall to be ineffectual in dealing with the Burning Blade and Old Horde, he can solve those problems... but then we need to see the fallout and the benefits from that (Ex: Horde warlocks that are not legion worshippers being addressed, Blackrocks joining the Horde) and negative effects (Reckless, albeit well meaning magic use causing problems, and conflict between the blackrocks and the other members of the Horde, questions of territory in the EK, etc...)

It doesn't have to be something one man can solve, and it can be a deeper problem than he realizes. It's really up to the writers how deep rooted and long term they want to write this.

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The Horde should be brutal. But not evil

They shouldn't go around looking for trouble or raiding villages. But when they feel threatened or they are being attacked, they should go fucking medieval on stuff.

Like Theramore in warcraft 3. The Horde didn't go to Theramore because they felt like pillaging for fun.
They went there because they were being attacked despite trying to just make a new home in Durotar.
They fucked up Theramore, but once their objective was done, they left. They didn't keep going to kill civilians. They just stopped.

This is the Horde I signed up to play.

[Skytotem]

It doesn't have to be something one man can solve, and it can be a deeper problem than he realizes. It's really up to the writers how deep rooted and long term they want to write this.



This is the Horde I signed up to play.

1. I suppose, but the idea of it going on perpetually would eventually run the risk of it getting played out, it'd have to change up SOMEHOW over time or it'd get boring.


2. Agreed.

[Cwimge]

The horde was honorable until the second Thrall left. For as long as not they've been pure, willfully Evil.

Players and NPCs alike revel in being evil and getting pandered to as the "badass" faction. The annoying part is how they persist in pushing a transparent victim narrative whenever they face paltry narrative consequences for crimes that beggar belief.

[Shadowferal]

I'd want a rewrite on the whole factions... three, possibly four factions. The one big problem child in the horde will always be forsaken. A 300lb gorilla in the room that the others in the horde try to ignore for the sake of fitting them in...but when have the forsaken been interested in fitting in?

[Skytotem]

The horde was honorable until the second Thrall left. For as long as not they've been pure, willfully Evil.

Players and NPCs alike revel in being evil and getting pandered to as the "badass" faction. The annoying part is how they persist in pushing a transparent victim narrative whenever they face paltry narrative consequences for crimes that beggar belief.

Plenty of players have been upset by the Horde being evil, it's why this thread exists, do you plan to contribute or just complain about perceived Horde 'pandering'?

[Super Dickmann]

Thrall's Horde is by nature a sleep deprivation cure unable to engage in any plot points, with the two Kalimdor races being less developed WC3 orcs and the Forsaken needing to be stapled on so the faction has any conflict or function to speak of. The Sylvanas-style Horde lacks any verisimilitude because it doesn't bother with the internal dynamic of any of the races in favour of having a singular Horde populace of schizophrenics that go from war enthusiasists to unexplained cults of personality to caring individuals and an equally singular Horde leadership of boring interchangable eunuchs. The current Horde isn't the Horde on any institutional or cultural level and is too heterogenuous to have any identity to speak of anyway. The WC2/Tides of Darkness and Iron Horde capture the perfect balance regarding the orcs but are non-viable due to the gameplay abundance of races in Red.

The Cataclysm Horde, both by virtue of its own traits and the process of elimination, plus TBC Blood Elves is ergo the faction's peak in terms of having an internal balance. It is the aim to strive for but also non-viable due to the overabundance of races in the Horde that make pinning down any identity a bother, ergo, the best route is an in-story faction collapse that frees up the races and their component parts to join more organic coalitions.

[Jshadowhunter]

If you view it that way, then it is funny that the "good" faction of WoW is an absolute monarchy

Well, apparently not anymore, cuz Anduin just went "I can't deal with this, let somebody else do it".

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oh, the horror. because we really need to repeat the same storyline over and over again, that sure hasn't turned anyone off.

and no; the horde in WoW was always meant to be a loose coalition of desperate groups, it's only when we decided to fully commit to the faction conflicts where that changed.

I'm not sure what you're talking about in the 1st part? You think that I was the repeat of Garrosh, Vol'jin, and Sylvannas being put on and removed from the throne? Hell no. I just want it all to return back to the pre-Cata, where the Warchief was in command and that was that.
I hate constantly being bombarded with the hack writers going "one ruler holding absolute power is bad, mkay?"
Horde was a coalition, yes, but they ALWAYS swore their fealty to the Warchief, because he's the main body of the Horde around which everybody gathers.

[Myradin]

Early Garrosh Horde is about the balance I want (or well the closest I can think of, subtract the racism towards other Horde members.

A horde that isn't evil to the point of parody but will not apologize for it's existence.

This. Alliance v Horde conflict is fine, but since MoP the horde keeps having to go completely genocidal and teaming up with big bads. Thats where the story becomes black and white and the Horde ends up having to blame it all on a leader to justify being allowed to exist.

Individuals are good or evil. And the Horde doesn't need to be evil to defend itself.

Turalyon & Alleria are about to go hardcore evil soon after literally torturing people in the last novel, so it's not something we have to worry about.

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Alliance provides colonizer fantasy realness & you don't think that's evil?

How are Alliance colonizers? Every race is more or less just holding onto land they've had for millenia. With the exception of the draenei and the only natives they fight are those who were unfortunately corrupted, they even ally peacefully with the uncorrupted.

Durotar and the Barrens meanwhile is about kicking Quilboars and such out of their land because the horde wants it.

[Shadowferal]

MoP kinda messed with the whole faction shtick.

Pandaria offered an outside impression of the faction war
Instead of glorifying the faction war that breaks out on that newly-discovered continent, Blizzard chose to show us the war’s awful costs. Both sides are invaders so focused on winning that they fail to fully consider the consequences of their actions on the local population and their land. We turn a peaceful country into a war-torn wasteland. The natural splendor of the Krasarang Wilds shores becomes a despoiled, bombed-out no man’s land. The gorgeous and historic Vale of Eternal Blossoms is all but annihilated.

We had hints of this early on: when the serpent statue crashes to the ground at the climax of the Jade Forest questline, we see that this is not a typical Blizzard story. This is about the very real aftermath of conflict.

Even the psychological effects of war are given their due in Mists, embodied literally in the ferocious sha. Garrosh himself gave in to the sha’s influence, spawned from the Old God Y’shaarj. His transformation from arrogant warchief to mass-murdering maniac is a tragedy for both his enemies and his own people.

However, no one suffers more than the Pandaren, who see their villages and cultural sites destroyed, loved ones killed, and entire landscapes devastated.

Early in the story, Taran Zhu berates us for participating in a “race war.” This is exactly what the war is, and Blizzard acknowledges that in no uncertain terms.

In the story’s finale, the two factions — and by extension all of Azeroth’s main races — come together to defeat Garrosh. Bit this conclusion could have been even more powerful: it could have been the end of race-based factions. There have been plenty of moments in WoW’s history where the races of each faction worked together to overcome a great evil. This was one of the most poignant, bringing the world together to fight side by side in the heart of the Horde’s territory.

Blizzard instead opted for the status quo to remain, the lessons learned from Pandaria’s despoiling swiftly forgotten.

More recently Blizzard had another opportunity to change things at the end of Battle for Azeroth‘s war campaign, when Saurfang confronts Sylvanas. Supported by both Horde and Alliance armies, Saurfang manages to free the Horde from Sylvanas’s genocidal influence. At the same time, the Azeroth is confronted with the monumental threat of N’zoth’s reemergence.

Once again, Blizzard could have chosen to end the race war, to dissolve the factions entirely, to unite the races in order to fight the last remaining Old God and cleanse Azeroth of their corruption. Blizzard was so close to doing this. Watching Thrall and Anduin carry Saurfang’s body through the gates of Orgrimmar, it honestly seemed inevitable. When they didn’t follow through, I was surprised.

Instead, Blizzard opted to keep the world’s races locked in neverending conflict with one another. When asked about it, they doubled down on the factions as integral to the game world. I can see where they’re coming from in a certain sense. But I also think it’s a mistake, if they’re going to keep those factions, to maintain the premise that these are first and foremost racially motivated constructs.

[LordVargK]

Well, apparently not anymore, cuz Anduin just went "I can't deal with this, let somebody else do it".

As is the right of an absolute monarch, who can basically do what he wants. Well, until a rebellion occurs, but for some strange reason every attempt of a rebellion againt the Stormwind oppression has failed so far. A king does not have to reign. A good king should, but it's entirely possible for a king to let other handle their business.

[TrueHorde]

The Noble Alliance and The Mighty Horde

[Ersula]

How are Alliance colonizers? Every race is more or less just holding onto land they've had for millenia. With the exception of the draenei and the only natives they fight are those who were unfortunately corrupted, they even ally peacefully with the uncorrupted.

Durotar and the Barrens meanwhile is about kicking Quilboars and such out of their land because the horde wants it.

1.) Durotar is unambiguously a refugee situation, not a colonizer situation: The Orcs were fleeing the Eastern Kingdoms & were invited to stay by the Tauren & Trolls who already lived there before the human race even existed.
2.) The Horde has resisted Centuar & Quilboar expansion: But have never attempted to move them from their ancestral land, the Razorfen thickets which erupted where Agamaggan died. Explicitly in those dungeons they're trying to stop a Scourge Lich & rescue some captives.
3.) Look up any history of the Alliance that aren't from the mouths of Alliance characters themselves: The Alliance was only initially formed to push trolls off their ancestral lands.

That combined with the cultural aspect of the Alliance, unlike the Horde, have a rigid sense of what cultural norms they consider acceptable. It paints a stark contrast of a historically anglo-saxon aesthetic versus non-western cultures, with both the good & bad connotations.

[Woggmer]

The Horde was pretty evil in WC1 and WC2, but then took a hard swerve into Honorable-Good in WC3, but since then Blizz has struggled to write the Horde in a satisfying way, often pairing well meaning but either impotent or oblivious honorable characters with evil characters who run rampant, and often don't make sense.

I'd have to half-disagree... The Horde was evil in WC1 and such WC2.. but only because Blackhand was a puppet warchief while Gul'dan was the "true" leader of the Horde. Orgrim took control after beating Blackhand in Mak'gora and killing him. From there, Orgrim Doomhammer lead the Horde from a less evil path away from Gul'dans ideals to a more honorbound path. Orgrim expected to win by killing off Lothar but as a result the Alliance didn't crumble at the fall of their commander and he along many other orcs were detained.

The rest of the Horde fractured themselves with ones in running back through the Dark Portal, while others like Rend Blackhand took what they had left and hid out in Blackrock Mountain to restart to the Old Horde.

Then.. Warcraft 3 comes around and Thrall was hoping to take Grommash Hellscream and Orgrim Doomhammer in a grand escape, but Orgrim dies and passes his legacy to Thrall to take up the torch and lead the people to survive.

The Horde isn't about conquering, nor is it just about being honorable in the face of their enemy, the main point of the Horde's existence is "SURVIVAL" Thrall and the Orcs survived being prisoners in concentration camps. Cairne and his Tauren trying to survive to reclaim their land from Centaurs.. The Darkspear Trolls trying to survive against the Murlocs and the Naga Sirens.. A lot of the Horde races all contain themes of them trying to survive heavy ordeals.. even the Vulpera show these themes in their culture as scavengers in a giant desert filled with dangerous creatures and snake people who try to turn them into slaves.

Garrosh was a reflection of Blackhand where they both wanted to conquer territory, this is where they think it is the true meaning the Horde while Sylvanas became more of a reflection of Gul'dan.

But that's just my viewpoint of the Horde, Survival and Honor. Not something that can be viewed and gauged in the scope of morality.

[Auburst]

Garrosh's Horde was perfect.

[Skytotem]

Garrosh's Horde was perfect.

No one can agree what Garrosh Horde WAS

[bloodmoth13]

Horde is plain evil. Honor was just propaganda to frame their evil as good.
After the horde sided with garrosh, then opposed him and 'redeemed' themselves, only to jump right on board with a genocidal war and global conquest with sylvanas (to which the horde with full precedence to rebel or refuse orders just goes along with it because deep down we all know horde are evil/ugly aligned)

Horde have been the villians for the entirety of the warcraft franchise, thralls horde can claim to not be evil when they saved tauren and built orgrimmar and fought the burning legion, but thrall was just looking for a chance to build his power base and began recruiting evil characters like the former scourge leader sylvanas. Trolls are cannibals, orcs are brutes, tauren are dumb savages that can get roped into doing whatever genocidal nonsense the orcs want them to do.

Im a horde loyalist and this truth is plain evident. We are the bad guys. Im tired of trying to frame an unprovoked genocide as 'but there is probably a reason'.

Their top political position is 'WAR CHIEF'

goblins are greed incarnate, undead are psychopathic sadists, blood elves are mana addicts, all orcs are bloodthirsty brutes, tauren are useful idiots, trolls are cannibal savages.. We are the bad guys and that is why people pick the horde in the first place. alliance are clearly the good guys and even if blizzard made them the bad guys for an expansion and they started committing genocide against the entire horde they would be perfectly just in doing so as the horde is a scourge on azeroth.

Who wants to play as alliance? you get to pick one of several humanoid punching bags (or purple elves or space aliens) that do nothing but whine about the horde kicking their asses? imagine wanting to play a purple elf who gets genocided and does nothing about it?

Remember when garrosh took over it was because the horde WANTED a warrior as warchief, the horde members didnt WANT the peaceful thrall. Voljin was voted in after garrosh, he did nothing between pandaria and legion and dies like a bitch, then passes leadership to the most obviously evil candidate because some death spirit told him to. He could have stopped it, other horde members could have intervened and held a council and just outright disregarded the delusional dying warchief but they wanted sylvanas.

[Aeula]

Just fold them into the Alliance.

Morally they’re the same, the council is pretty much made up of near-100% Alliance sympathisers. There’s 0 purpose in the faction existing other than to sell faction related merchandise.

[Shadowferal]

I have ideas for 3-4 factions, one of which would be for the player that enjoys being the bad guy. (Some people seem to like Warhammer's "chaos gods" so this gives them an option to be so...dark and edgy in WoW)