10.0 should remove the timer from Mythic+ dungeons...

[Ezyah]

those suggestion to lower the challenge of the game to the lowest possible level to make the worst players feel good about thesmelves need to stop.

[Jester Joe]

I dont think anyone considers the mission table a success. I've nevr met a soul who does. Do you actually think its a success?

Okay, since it wasn't clear enough for you.

Your argument isn't worth anything. It's a ridiculous reach that should just be dismissed. It has nothing to do with M+, and you have literally nothing to stand on about it.

[ketsui]

...and add Challenge Modes back to the game with cosmetic rewards for people who enjoy that speedrunning gameplay.

We can have both M+ and CMs in the game at the same time! M+ can be a more relaxed experience where tanks don't need to plan routes and people don't have to chainpull like its WOTLK. You can still do that if you want but I think many people would prefer if that wasn't the default setting.

For people who want that additional challenge you can have an entirely separate opt-in game mode with cool cosmetic rewards. You can even rotate which dungeons are available every season to spice things up, and add seasonal rewards.

Timed dungeons were never the core of the WOW experience, and it shouldn't be the primary way that people engage with group content. They are incredibly complex and inaccessible to casual players, and drive people to quit the game because there is no alternative.

I completely disagree, dumbing the game down further removes any goals for casuals, this is a good goal for casuals and if you don't know how to use google and watch videos on how to run mythic dungeons, you should be herbing/mining and buying carries

Also, i'm a casual and I can do M +15 pretty easily

[arkanon]

no, thats a terrible idea.

M+ has been more popular than challenge dungeons by a fucking mile. Why would you want it to be reverted back to something where folks do them once, and then never again.

Fucking dumb

You don't think maybe, JUST MAYBE, that has everything to do with the reward structure? Just maybe.

[Jastall]

You don't think maybe, JUST MAYBE, that has everything to do with the reward structure? Just maybe.

You can say that about anything. Remove gear from raids or rated PvP and watch participation crater instantly. It's hardly a secret that gear keeps people motivated and playing like nothing else.

[cuafpr]

yep, timers should not be a thing in any part of the game unless the reward is simply where you place on a list. In my opinion, timers are lazy game design to make things harder and encourages some of the worst parts of the community to come out. If people want to form a rush group the reward is getting more content fast, if others take their time waiting for cooldowns awesome for them.

[ArmatisUlv]

...and add Challenge Modes back to the game with cosmetic rewards for people who enjoy that speedrunning gameplay.

We can have both M+ and CMs in the game at the same time! M+ can be a more relaxed experience where tanks don't need to plan routes and people don't have to chainpull like its WOTLK. You can still do that if you want but I think many people would prefer if that wasn't the default setting.

For people who want that additional challenge you can have an entirely separate opt-in game mode with cool cosmetic rewards. You can even rotate which dungeons are available every season to spice things up, and add seasonal rewards.

Timed dungeons were never the core of the WOW experience, and it shouldn't be the primary way that people engage with group content. They are incredibly complex and inaccessible to casual players, and drive people to quit the game because there is no alternative.

Or instead keep M+ and put in CMs. Literally no reason to take away good systems.

[arkanon]

You can say that about anything. Remove gear from raids or rated PvP and watch participation crater instantly. It's hardly a secret that gear keeps people motivated and playing like nothing else.

That's my point.

[fearcazic]

Mythic+ is pretty easy up to M16. I took my lowest geared Tank this season to KSM by buying all the greens in ZM then did all M0s befoe doing four M8s for 2 weeks, then a mix of four M10/12. Last week, I did a mix of 10 M15/16. This week a did a couple of 17s and got KSM. In between, I killed world bosses and did ZM quests. Never did any raids or LFR. Got double 291 leggo before pushing M15s.

I have 3 KSM tanks now and working on my 4th. All without any tier pieces. You can time M15s with 255 ilvl with ease. People make it harder than it seem because they watched some YouTube videos of M20 and want to copy it. M15 is literally like a M0 when the expansion was out when we were all 185 ilvl doing it. Just go at a steady pace and pull 1 pack at a time. Don't die.

[rhorle]

I dont think anyone considers the mission table a success. I've nevr met a soul who does. Do you actually think its a success?

The current iteration? No. But the mission table overall is a succesful design. It has been around for four expansions now and offers small drips of content. They should take it back to more the WoD garrison method though as the Shadowlands version is to annoying to do without an addon. It is great to allow small "nearly passive" rewards as well. The herbs and enchanting maps were a great source of gold.

It really does seem like you are confusing "I don't like it" with "it isn't succesful" going off of you claiming M+ is the worst system ever.

[wushootaki]

Theres a simple reason why they wont do this though: Not all dungeons in the game were designed with m+ in mind..
Unless they choose to go back and rework all Classic/cata/ TBC and Wrath dungeons, we wont ever get to see those as m+ dungeons. as they simply arent designed with that system in mind.

Right, but if they put in the work ONCE, then then those dungeons can bring them benefit for the rest of the game's lifespan.

[MoanaLisa]

I dont think anyone considers the mission table a success. I've nevr met a soul who does. Do you actually think its a success?

Honestly no way to know. 1) I would never judge a feature as a success or failure based on anything I read here or on reddit. 2) We don't have any clue at all how many players do anything with it. 3) We don't know Blizzard's criteria for success which in the end is the only criteria that matters.

[Itisamuh]

If you can't time a key, isn't it enough of a challenge? You still get credit after the time expires.

People seem to forget that things can be difficult without having to be mindlessly fast. All a timer does is make it more challenging than it needs to be because you have to play more careless than you probably would otherwise. Brainless rushing is not something that should be encouraged.

[rhorle]

People seem to forget that things can be difficult without having to be mindlessly fast. All a timer does is make it more challenging than it needs to be because you have to play more careless than you probably would otherwise. Brainless rushing is not something that should be encouraged.

How will it be a challenge without a timer? What would stop players from waiting for cooldowns to be up every pull just to push higher DPS/Heals? People will still try to find the fastest route because the concept of rushing has nothing to do with M+. People just don't want to wait around for hours for things anymore. The highest 9 groups have done a +28 key so simply removing the timer would easily lower the challenge.

[deenman]

...and add Challenge Modes back to the game with cosmetic rewards for people who enjoy that speedrunning gameplay.

We can have both M+ and CMs in the game at the same time! M+ can be a more relaxed experience where tanks don't need to plan routes and people don't have to chainpull like its WOTLK. You can still do that if you want but I think many people would prefer if that wasn't the default setting.

For people who want that additional challenge you can have an entirely separate opt-in game mode with cool cosmetic rewards. You can even rotate which dungeons are available every season to spice things up, and add seasonal rewards.

Timed dungeons were never the core of the WOW experience, and it shouldn't be the primary way that people engage with group content. They are incredibly complex and inaccessible to casual players, and drive people to quit the game because there is no alternative.

you do realise you can spend a week in a m+ dungeon if thats what gets your rocks off AND still get loot right???right?

- - - Updated - - -

The real question is: Has M+ made WoW a better and more played game compared to when we didn't have this system? M+ is definitely more popular than Challenge Modes (which is logical, considering it gives gear), but it has quickly become a very niche game mode and it isn't a huge success at what it was designed for in the first place: eSports.

it 100% keeps many people subbed,many people play only m+ and dont even raid,in my guild that did raid boosts we had friends that didnt join our easier raid boosts and instead did m+ boosts

[Aresk]

Blizzard could always assign some rating system to M+ similar to Torgahst. Kill all the mobs for extra points. Complete the dungeon quickly for extra points. Penalize score based on deaths. Scale the score based on the key level. Give bonuses for certain amounts of percentage of the total time in combat or having the group stay above 50% health for a certain amount of time in combat or for interrupting a certain percentage of casts, for taking less than X avoidable damage, etc. There are plenty of metrics that could be applied beyond just "Finished this dungeon this quickly."

Theres a simple reason why they wont do this though: Not all dungeons in the game were designed with m+ in mind..
Unless they choose to go back and rework all Classic/cata/ TBC and Wrath dungeons, we wont ever get to see those as m+ dungeons. as they simply arent designed with that system in mind.

I would love to see what a M+ Shadow Labs would look like. What timer would you even assign to something like that?

Not only is that the most ridiculous reach I've ever seen, there's no way to actually track who engages with the mission table nor is it even something that you can say safely most people engage with. Hell, I forgot about it for nearly half the expansion.

What do you mean that there's no way to track who engages with the mission table? There are literally achievements for that. Wowhead's achievement tracking shows 64% of profiles have run 100 missions. Additionally, 16% of profiles have three adventurers at level 60. Meanwhile, 5% of profiles have Shadowlands Keystone Master Season Three, and 19% earned Keystone Master in Season Two. Keystone Master for Season Two was only slightly more successful than leveling adventurers, by these metrics.

[Zantos]

Timed dungeons were never the core of the WOW experience, and it shouldn't be the primary way that people engage with group content. They are incredibly complex and inaccessible to casual players, and drive people to quit the game because there is no alternative.

Look, I've done both. Here is the issue with CM's: one and done. That's it. You get a neat mount, cool transmog (I liked the outfits better), and a portal right to the instance. The portal was useless unless thanks to LFG. The need to be highly skilled in one class is the limiter there as well. I would have enjoyed getting them on more then 1 character, but getting groups to run them to gold even the first time was a challenge.

M+ is an alternative to raiding. Doing better gets you better gear that is closely in line with raids. It IS an alternative. The alternative to the higher end rewards being Mythic raids, which arguable, see far fewer people participating in. Without a key that increases the challenge, there wouldn't be a real way to get good gear if you don't raid. Even as someone who just logged in for a few hours, M+ was great. I could easily find a group at any time since the constant addition of better gear and a weekly reward help keep it alive.

The timer is fine. If people cant manage it or turn away from WoW because of a timer, then they don't want to really play any kind of challenging game. Timers have been a part of dungeons, even since BC. They had dungeons that if you beat the timer, you got extra loot. So this isn't even a new concept. Just one they expanded upon.

[Sugani]

And since there is no other reason to get better gear, there is no problem.

I hate this argument so much. Getting gear is fun. The game should prioritize fun.

[Lolites]

if others take their time waiting for cooldowns awesome for them.

sure, awesome for them
and they can literaly do that now... shouldnt be problem finding 4 people to do that since timer is soooo unpopular, right? RIGHT?

[Caprias]

Hey I know everyone is aging/balding and some of you might not be as good as before due to that or don't have the time anymore yada yada.

But don't ruin it for the people still interested, will ya?