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  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by cantrip View Post
    You play 2-3 times weekly. Which is reagularily. You might see yourself as a casual gamer, but compared to many other casual gamers you are far away from it.
    Even if I played 1x a week for 1hr at a time, I could still progress thru m+ and get to +15s. Nothing is preventing those ultra casuals.

    Spending 4hrs out of the 168 hours in a week is 0.25% of my time. That is not semi hardcore lol

  2. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    Even if I played 1x a week for 1hr at a time, I could still progress thru m+ and get to +15s. Nothing is preventing those ultra casuals.

    Spending 4hrs out of the 168 hours in a week is 0.25% of my time. That is not semi hardcore lol
    That guy is a clown, he spends more time here complaining instead of putting any effort into the game. He can play WoW as a single player game, it's fine, but he can't expect the game to change to cater for needs like his. Ultra-casual gamers don't play mmos because it's not worth the money for the hours they get out of it.

  3. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    sure, awesome for them
    and they can literaly do that now... shouldnt be problem finding 4 people to do that since timer is soooo unpopular, right? RIGHT?
    yes at the expense of timer rewards... Timers are for those folks that need the epeen boost and nothing more in WoW.
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  4. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by cantrip View Post
    Those "ultra casuals" play 2-3 times a month. They play mainly world content, as they have no high enough gear to play mythic+. And if they join the group finder, they will be ignored. And if they create an own group, noone will join them. That is the truth about what you call "ultra casuals".

    You actually are semi hardcore, if you play every week for 2-3 times and do high level mythic dungeon runs. Everything else is simply wrong.
    I dont think debating with u is gonna get anywhere. The 233 level 1/6 cypher gear is enough to run m0 and m+2. Even the 226 gear is high enough.

    Hell, even if u just hit 60 and like 170 ilvl gear, that enough to list a group and run m0 for a key then run the +2 with your own key. No one cares abt rating at that level and without an addon no one can see ur ilvl when posting your own key.

    Playing 2-3 times a month in world content is way more than enough to get started in m+.

  5. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by cantrip View Post
    Those "ultra casuals" play 2-3 times a month. They play mainly world content, as they have no high enough gear to play mythic+. And if they join the group finder, they will be ignored. And if they create an own group, noone will join them. That is the truth about what you call "ultra casuals".

    You actually are semi hardcore, if you play every week for 2-3 times and do high level mythic dungeon runs. Everything else is simply wrong.
    So what prevents you to do the same? Because you clearly are ultra casual and you can't expect society to spin around you. Also consider finding a better game. Playing few hours a month and paying 15 bucks for that is very bad bang for a buck

  6. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by erifwodahs View Post
    That guy is a clown, he spends more time here complaining instead of putting any effort into the game. He can play WoW as a single player game, it's fine, but he can't expect the game to change to cater for needs like his. Ultra-casual gamers don't play mmos because it's not worth the money for the hours they get out of it.
    Ya im just not seeing his argument at all. If he means casual as super unskilled players, just say that. If he's talking abt himself, just say that too. But I have a feeling he dsnt want help

  7. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by cantrip View Post
    Thing is most of those players simply do not care to gear up for mythic+ or invest any effort to play it. You actually play up to mythic+15, have a high gear level and play regularily. Nothing about you is comparable to a typical casual gamer.

    Hey, and before you get deeper into quoting erifwodahs rants and ad hominems and you trying to discover what kind of player i am, i can simply tell you i am no wow player currently. As i dislike Shadowlands. Before i stopped, i played mainly rated PVP. But all of my personal experiences do not change the factual definition of a casual gamer. All my experiences have no influence on the fact that someone who plays 2-3 times regularily every week is definately no casual gamer.

    If you want to continue personal rants from others, just go for it. In that case i end the debate with you. And hey, thanks for offering help. I just need none, as someone who does not play the game. And if i play the game i play rated arena with my wife. I just criticize nowadays PVE gameplay based on facts, and how it does neither appeal me personally or how it also does not appeal to typical casual gamers anymore.
    If the game doesn't appeal to you thats fine. I just think your problems run far deeper than m+ having a timer, and the removal of it wouldn't bring u back.

    And I was saying m+ is not sonething they have to specifically gear up for in order to get started. If they would start it, and happened to like it, the gearing would take care of itself.

    We will just have to disagree on whether 4 hrs a week constitutes a casual.

  8. #128
    Hell no. Timers are the only thing that makes M+ playable. Imagine waiting for cooldowns and heroism between every pack on a high key because there is no reason not to. Gameplay would get insanely degenerate with no timer.
    Your persistence of vision does not come without great sacrifice. Let go of the tangible mass of your mind, it is only an illusion. There is no escape.. For the soul burns on everlasting encapsulated within infinite time. A thousand year journey at the blink of an eye... Humanity is dust..

  9. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by cantrip View Post
    Before i stopped, i played mainly rated PVP
    So what does m+ timer has to do with you then? "I mainly mainly eat carrots, can we please stop putting cheese on pizza"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakna View Post
    Hell no. Timers are the only thing that makes M+ playable. Imagine waiting for cooldowns and heroism between every pack on a high key because there is no reason not to. Gameplay would get insanely degenerate with no timer.
    I would say again, remove depletion if not on time, keep timer for upgrading keys. No-one loses. Actually it's better for pushers, because you don't progress negatively.

  10. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by erifwodahs View Post
    I would say again, remove depletion if not on time, keep timer for upgrading keys. No-one loses. Actually it's better for pushers, because you don't progress negatively.
    I can agree with remove downgrading of key upon failure, everything else should stay tho.

    I would also argue on a different area for the removal of negative affixes though actually, if anything there should be no affixes, or only positive ones. We can make our own difficulty by progressing key levels, we don't need some arbitrary affix limiting what we can pull.
    Your persistence of vision does not come without great sacrifice. Let go of the tangible mass of your mind, it is only an illusion. There is no escape.. For the soul burns on everlasting encapsulated within infinite time. A thousand year journey at the blink of an eye... Humanity is dust..

  11. #131
    Herald of the Titans Alroxas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erifwodahs View Post
    I would say again, remove depletion if not on time, keep timer for upgrading keys. No-one loses. Actually it's better for pushers, because you don't progress negatively.
    No, the player loses. Think about it... if key depletion didn't happen then you are actually rewarding restarting the key for every kind of non-perfect play. From the "oh we only have 2 mins left to time and we haven't gotten to the last boss" to "we had a non-party wipe death which is penalizing us by 5s per death" to "aw man we didn't do that first pull correctly as to the MDI levels of gameplay"

    Without key depletion, it would ALWAYS be worth restarting because there aren't any negatives except for time spent up to that point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakna View Post
    I would also argue on a different area for the removal of negative affixes though actually, if anything there should be no affixes, or only positive ones. We can make our own difficulty by progressing key levels, we don't need some arbitrary affix limiting what we can pull.
    Uh we saw this already back in MDI for Legion... where the tactic for every dungeon is pull as much as you can then AoE Burst them down. If your class can't do AoE burst, might as well not play M+ because you can't contribute to that tactic.

    The whole point of these affixes, dungeon design, and class changes is to limit that very limited MDI kind of strategy.


    Realistically what should have happened to M+ from BFA onwards is that you split the M+ design philosophy into two camps: 1 for everybody who isn't doing MDI and another set especially tuned for MDI (or more specifically MDI viewership).

    This way anti-pull everything and nuke down can be adjusted at the MDI level and the strategies for MDI aren't as impactful to the rest of the player base.
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  12. #132
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cantrip View Post
    Those "ultra casuals" play 2-3 times a month. They play mainly world content, as they have no high enough gear to play mythic+. And if they join the group finder, they will be ignored. And if they create an own group, noone will join them. That is the truth about what you call "ultra casuals".
    So they aren't relevant and shouldn't be designed around. Because no system can be good for a game while catering to people that only play 2 to 3 times a month. It also ignores that they can get Mythic+ 8/9 end of dungeon loot from doing the Cypher research in the latest zone. Not a full set but enough to be competitive and not get ignored if they are doing appropriate key levels.
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  13. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by Alroxas View Post
    No, the player loses. Think about it... if key depletion didn't happen then you are actually rewarding restarting the key for every kind of non-perfect play. From the "oh we only have 2 mins left to time and we haven't gotten to the last boss" to "we had a non-party wipe death which is penalizing us by 5s per death" to "aw man we didn't do that first pull correctly as to the MDI levels of gameplay"

    Without key depletion, it would ALWAYS be worth restarting because there aren't any negatives except for time spent up to that point.
    That's a non-argument, downside of depletion is literally negative progress, so not only you don't upgrade your key, you have to waste time to get to the same level you are already. If you are not pushing and doing if for gear - no one will care if you die or wipe, they will continue, if you are pushing, you are still wasting your time by resetting, just not double-wasting it.

    Edit: it's actually triple, because you do it initially, then you have to get it to the same level and you have to re-do initial level again. It's just dumb

  14. #134
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cantrip View Post
    Nothing to do with mythic plus, but you shouldn’t use mmo population as a source for any thing it’s just made up numbers based off of Reddit there is literally nothing backing it up they are just farming you for add money.
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  15. #135
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erifwodahs View Post
    That's a non-argument, downside of depletion is literally negative progress, so not only you don't upgrade your key, you have to waste time to get to the same level you are already. If you are not pushing and doing if for gear - no one will care if you die or wipe, they will continue, if you are pushing, you are still wasting your time by resetting, just not double-wasting it.
    But isn't that the point? If you can't beat the timer you need to practice on lower difficulty first then work your way up. It isn't wasting your time if you wouldn't be reaching above your skill level to begin with. The only time it sucks is when the group falls a part prior to getting to the pass/fail timer check. The only thing that needs to change is bringing in people to finish a depleted/failed run.

    If a key doesn't deplete then people will just get a +15 once and farm it for the end of run loot. With no depletion they get the same item level each time. It would drastically change how people do M+ runs and get rewards.
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  16. #136
    Quote Originally Posted by Alroxas View Post
    Uh we saw this already back in MDI for Legion... where the tactic for every dungeon is pull as much as you can then AoE Burst them down. If your class can't do AoE burst, might as well not play M+ because you can't contribute to that tactic.

    The whole point of these affixes, dungeon design, and class changes is to limit that very limited MDI kind of strategy.


    Realistically what should have happened to M+ from BFA onwards is that you split the M+ design philosophy into two camps: 1 for everybody who isn't doing MDI and another set especially tuned for MDI (or more specifically MDI viewership).

    This way anti-pull everything and nuke down can be adjusted at the MDI level and the strategies for MDI aren't as impactful to the rest of the player base.
    We already see this happening on easy affix weeks, whereas hard affix weeks are totally different. So going by the logic of your argument, only certain specs can play on certain weeks because the entire pull meta changes on a rotating basis. As a tank main, playing with affixes like Necrotic, Sanguine and Storming is so aids it can't be described as fun gameplay, and if something can't be described as fun, should it be in a video game?

    Also, just so we're clear, I don't agree with your comment that removal of affixes would change up the pull meta to just pull everything and aoe it down. Dungeon design now compared to Legion makes the trash a LOT more dangerous, if you try to mongo pull half a dungeon and you're not one of the best teams in the world, you are just going to get nuked when all the casts you aren't prepared for inevitably go through. Only a few teams in the world are able to pull out the gameplay and coordination required to do what you are imagining. Removal of affixes will change absolutely nothing in the pull meta for average weekly runner teams. I just don't like being artificially limited by affixes such as bolstering, necrotic, inspiring etc on what you can do week to week. Plus, changing it to having only positive affixes (kinda like the ones from the tormentors in Season 2) would just make the game more fun overall. Less negative, more positive, we can always increase the difficulty by just increasing the key level.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    But isn't that the point? If you can't beat the timer you need to practice on lower difficulty first then work your way up. It isn't wasting your time if you wouldn't be reaching above your skill level to begin with. The only time it sucks is when the group falls a part prior to getting to the pass/fail timer check. The only thing that needs to change is bringing in people to finish a depleted/failed run.

    If a key doesn't deplete then people will just get a +15 once and farm it for the end of run loot. With no depletion they get the same item level each time. It would drastically change how people do M+ runs and get rewards.
    You're overthinking it, it wouldn't change a thing.
    Your persistence of vision does not come without great sacrifice. Let go of the tangible mass of your mind, it is only an illusion. There is no escape.. For the soul burns on everlasting encapsulated within infinite time. A thousand year journey at the blink of an eye... Humanity is dust..

  17. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    If a key doesn't deplete then people will just get a +15 once and farm it for the end of run loot. With no depletion they get the same item level each time. It would drastically change how people do M+ runs and get rewards.
    +15 is piss easy, how non-depleting change anything besides people being more willing to invite people who might have a bit lower score?
    If I am doing a +24 PF, that means I have already done a +23 already, so game gives me a +24 because I beat the requirements, but at the same time makes me incompetent to do it? What?
    Depleting key mechanic is the same bs as losing levels or dropping items on death. Would you advocate that?

    What kind of strange gatekeeping is this "We are supposed to have our time wasted" - you waste it if you are always resetting to get perfect pulls, why do we need to waste 40mins just to try the same shit again?
    Last edited by erifwodahs; 2022-04-14 at 02:12 PM.

  18. #138
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erifwodahs View Post
    +15 is piss easy, how non-depleting change anything besides people being more willing to invite people who might have a bit lower score?
    Why would they invite a lower score when they want a fast and efficient run? People won't choose to subject themselves to a longer experience just because they are no longer bound by the timer. It isn't gate keeping to point out that a person that can't beat a timer is choosing to waste their time a key level they can't complete. Hence why it depletes so you don't waste your time on something you aren't skilled enough to do. Lol.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by cantrip View Post
    They are least more relevant than mythic raiders. A few thousand mythic raiders and a few hundred thousand ultra casuals. The WoW devs would not design the world content for them if they were completely irrelevant.
    So ultra casuals have world content. Why do they need M+ content as well?
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  19. #139
    Herald of the Titans Alroxas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakna View Post
    We already see this happening on easy affix weeks, whereas hard affix weeks are totally different. So going by the logic of your argument, only certain specs can play on certain weeks because the entire pull meta changes on a rotating basis. As a tank main, playing with affixes like Necrotic, Sanguine and Storming is so aids it can't be described as fun gameplay, and if something can't be described as fun, should it be in a video game?
    You're missing the point. Top level play (aka MDI) filters downward to the rest of wow community especially when it revolves around PuGs. As a result, various tactics are adopted from the MDI to be the standard even when it's not necessary.

    For instance, all class and specs are viable for M+ through +15 without any issues. We've seen the data from r.io that shows that every class/spec can do +15s yet the community (especially in the world of PuGs) will prefer certain "meta" specs even when it's not necessary.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vakna View Post
    Also, just so we're clear, I don't agree with your comment that removal of affixes would change up the pull meta to just pull everything and aoe it down. Dungeon design now compared to Legion makes the trash a LOT more dangerous,
    That's part of the change... Since BFA, M+ dungeon design, affix design and class design have been heavily influenced by the MDI. Because Blizzard saw that Legion MDI revolved so much around pulling half the dungeon and bursting AoE down the adds, you see little changes now that prevent that tactic from working as well as before. Bolstering, Bursting, Sanguine, Storming, Necrotic are such affixes. The change to add a cap on AoE damage is another.

    But to be fair to Blizzard, their devs do listen the player base and made appropriate changes like the ones to Necrotic to shift the tanking balance back from constant kiting

    The point I'm making is that M+ would probably be more enjoyable if those restrictive designs (dungeon, affix, class changes) were limited to just the MDI players. Put that kind of crap at the +21 or higher keys and have a different ruleset for keys +20 and below.
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  20. #140
    Quote Originally Posted by erifwodahs View Post
    I mean that is what 1.5h/day day if you do two keys? sub 10hrs a week is pretty casual if that's the only game you play.
    10h per week is not very casual by any measure.

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