10.0 should remove the timer from Mythic+ dungeons...

[El Gucaragua]

...and add Challenge Modes back to the game with cosmetic rewards for people who enjoy that speedrunning gameplay.

We can have both M+ and CMs in the game at the same time! M+ can be a more relaxed experience where tanks don't need to plan routes and people don't have to chainpull like its WOTLK. You can still do that if you want but I think many people would prefer if that wasn't the default setting.

For people who want that additional challenge you can have an entirely separate opt-in game mode with cool cosmetic rewards. You can even rotate which dungeons are available every season to spice things up, and add seasonal rewards.

Timed dungeons were never the core of the WOW experience, and it shouldn't be the primary way that people engage with group content. They are incredibly complex and inaccessible to casual players, and drive people to quit the game because there is no alternative.

Yea I'd love to have both but small indie company won't do it. To be fair... M+ is already too ingrained of a system. CM should be the dungeon with every single affix in the game active and players are at an equalized level. As chaotic as you can make it but with no time. Something like that might be better.

[Spiroz]

A lot has been said about bringing longer dungeons that you can plan etc...I imagine most people asking for this didn't do tazavesh on hard mode.

There has been an alternative for the last three expansions during the patch cycles by introducing a mega dungeon with a hard mode for higher rewards yet people on mass were still doing keys.

This to me means the majority enjoy keys and thankfully the developers are catering to the majority here.

You will still most likely get your mega dungeon next expansion as well just maybe this time...do it?

[erifwodahs]

Why would they invite a lower score when they want a fast and efficient run? People won't choose to subject themselves to a longer experience just because they are no longer bound by the timer. It isn't gate keeping to point out that a person that can't beat a timer is choosing to waste their time a key level they can't complete. Hence why it depletes so you don't waste your time on something you aren't skilled enough to do. Lol.

If you want a fast run you are already not depleting = no change from now.
What kind of backwards logic do you have here? You already timed a +23, game gives you +24, you die because some pulls don't work anymore which are ok on +23, how does depleting and PREVENTING you from practice is a good thing?

I don't understand players who advocate getting fucked in the ass. Are you also advocating timegating on tier crafting and covenant swaps prior to 9.1.5? Depleting a key makes game frustrating, not fun. I would love to see your rio, because I bet it's not much.

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10h per week is not very casual by any measure.

People watch netflix for longer lol

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They are least more relevant than mythic raiders. A few thousand mythic raiders and a few hundred thousand ultra casuals. The WoW devs would not design the world content for them if they were completely irrelevant.

Few thousand? Are you aware that like 2k guilds clear mythic every tier? Which means at least 50k CE raiders and probably 2 times as many who never get that far in mythic.

[rhorle]

What kind of backwards logic do you have here? You already timed a +23, game gives you +24, you die because some pulls don't work anymore which are ok on +23, how does depleting and PREVENTING you from practice is a good thing?

You can practice on +23, right? Otherwise how did you get good enough to get a +24 key in the first place? If you die because some pulls don't work it shows you need to practice which can be done on a lower key. There isn't that big of a change between +23 and +24. The only time you would need a higher key to practice is when you are at a break point for additional affixes.

[erifwodahs]

You can practice on +23, right? Otherwise how did you get good enough to get a +24 key in the first place? If you die because some pulls don't work it shows you need to practice which can be done on a lower key. There isn't that big of a change between +23 and +24. The only time you would need a higher key to practice is when you are at a break point for additional affixes.

Tell me that you don't even have KSM without telling me. Or you probably have it, maybe doing +17s and think that you are the shit. lol

[rhorle]

Tell me that you don't even have KSM without telling me. Or you probably have it, maybe doing +17s and think that you are the shit. lol

So you can't counter the argument and instead move to insults. What prevents you from practicing at +23 for a +24? Why do you need to waste your time on +24 when you can't actually do a +24?

[erifwodahs]

So you can't counter the argument and instead move to insults. What prevents you from practicing at +23 for a +24? Why do you need to waste your time on +24 when you can't actually do a +24?

Because +23 is not a +24? You are literally guessing your CD timers without knowing if the pull is viable on +24. You clearly haven't pushed any keys. You literally gatekeep for the sake of it By your logic, a +10 is valid practice for a +24 because there are no new affixes after that.
Ok so what if my key gets depleted to +22 while I have all 24s done, do I need to practice a +22? Go defend conduit energy, clown

[rhorle]

Because +23 is not a +24? You are literally guessing your CD timers without knowing if the pull is viable on +24.

Then sounds like that person needs to practice on a +23 more to get a better feel for things, right? And that they are wasting their time in a +24 without being able to do it. I'm not gate keeping at all here. Stop moving the goal posts just because you have nothing to counter with. If your key gets depleted then you clearly need practice because you can't do what you were attempting. Duh.

Your argument only indicates that going to a +22 from a +24 is flawed and not that depletion is.

[Toybox]

I would say again, remove depletion if not on time, keep timer for upgrading keys. No-one loses. Actually it's better for pushers, because you don't progress negatively.

I don't see anything wrong with this idea. Also stops the (seemingly massive) problem of people leaving group finder keys after a bad pull or two.

[Segus1992]

People watch netflix for longer lol

Ok. Still isn't very casual. Not sure what you want me to say here.

[erifwodahs]

Then sounds like that person needs to practice on a +23 more to get a better feel for things, right? And that they are wasting their time in a +24 without being able to do it. I'm not gate keeping at all here. Stop moving the goal posts just because you have nothing to counter with. If your key gets depleted then you clearly need practice because you can't do what you were attempting. Duh.

Your argument only indicates that going to a +22 from a +24 is flawed and not that depletion is.

Dude, why are you arguing about something you have no clue about? You are standing here, talking from your "it's supposed to be like this" ground while having literal fuck all to do with the system. It's very clear that you have no competence in anything relatively challenging.

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I don't see anything wrong with this idea. Also stops the (seemingly massive) problem of people leaving group finder keys after a bad pull or two.

You know what happens now? You have a bad couple of pulls and people leave regardless and key holder now has to work his key back up. Also people are waiting for 30mins in the que rather than inviting someone who has done 19s but no 20s into a +20.

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Ok. Still isn't very casual. Not sure what you want me to say here.

Pretty casual, it's less than 1.5hrs a day on a hobby. Very easy amount of time to spare, well at least in Europe, we have 40hr weeks here for the most part.

[relaxok]

Blizzard should not care about people who play a few hours a month and also suck. Absurd to pay for the sub even at that point.

[Frolk]

Why dont u just complete keys ur able to do?

If u cant beat the timer, it means ur not geared and/or good enough.

There is always M0, LFR and WQs if ur after easy content

[bullseyed]

...and add Challenge Modes back to the game with cosmetic rewards for people who enjoy that speedrunning gameplay.

We can have both M+ and CMs in the game at the same time! M+ can be a more relaxed experience where tanks don't need to plan routes and people don't have to chainpull like its WOTLK. You can still do that if you want but I think many people would prefer if that wasn't the default setting.

For people who want that additional challenge you can have an entirely separate opt-in game mode with cool cosmetic rewards. You can even rotate which dungeons are available every season to spice things up, and add seasonal rewards.

Timed dungeons were never the core of the WOW experience, and it shouldn't be the primary way that people engage with group content. They are incredibly complex and inaccessible to casual players, and drive people to quit the game because there is no alternative.

Or you could just ignore the timer, if you're not good enough to hit it. Has no impact on you.

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So ultra casuals have world content. Why do they need M+ content as well?

Keys below 15 exist. There is already ultra-casual M+ content.

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I don't see anything wrong with this idea. Also stops the (seemingly massive) problem of people leaving group finder keys after a bad pull or two.

Spoiler: it doesn't. People aren't going to spend 50 mins in a 30 min dungeon to carry a boosted character, regardless of whether the keystone depletes or not.


For example, if triple-pulling the first hallway in Spires with a WW monk... if that monk doesn't peak at at least 50k dps, they don't know how to play their class. It won't fix itself halfway thru the run.

I'm not the guy who leaves over that, but the people who do are justified in doing so. Carries should be paid, not free.

[Aresk]

Wouldn't it just end up as "Lets do fastest/easiest stuff and skip the rest"? Kind of like with Torghast and how you don't even try for certain point activities because it isn't worth the effort.

I think that depends on the group. When I was doing Torghast as a slower tank, I knew I couldn't beat the timer, so I prioritized things like "Get 5 obleron armaments of the same type," "get a full set of obleron armaments," and "Don't take any legendary powers" to make up for it. It gives different ways to play the dungeon, and while there might be a speed run meta, it would also give people who don't enjoy speed running an alternative.

[ellieg]

For example, if triple-pulling the first hallway in Spires with a WW monk... if that monk doesn't peak at at least 50k dps, they don't know how to play their class. It won't fix itself halfway thru the run.

I'm not the guy who leaves over that, but the people who do are justified in doing so. Carries should be paid, not free.

Are you in a +8, +15, or +23? If either of the first 2, I wouldn't call not hitting 50k dps a carry. If you contribute enough dps to time the dungeon, you're fine. You're not great, but thats far from getting carried.

[Jester Joe]

What do you mean that there's no way to track who engages with the mission table? There are literally achievements for that. Wowhead's achievement tracking shows 64% of profiles have run 100 missions. Additionally, 16% of profiles have three adventurers at level 60. Meanwhile, 5% of profiles have Shadowlands Keystone Master Season Three, and 19% earned Keystone Master in Season Two. Keystone Master for Season Two was only slightly more successful than leveling adventurers, by these metrics.

Seeing how many people use the mission table at some point isn't the same as being able to see how many people do M+ weekly.

Also you get free exp boosts from increasing your renown so that doesn't mean much.

[bullseyed]

No, the player loses. Think about it... if key depletion didn't happen then you are actually rewarding restarting the key for every kind of non-perfect play. From the "oh we only have 2 mins left to time and we haven't gotten to the last boss" to "we had a non-party wipe death which is penalizing us by 5s per death" to "aw man we didn't do that first pull correctly as to the MDI levels of gameplay"

Without key depletion, it would ALWAYS be worth restarting because there aren't any negatives except for time spent up to that point.

This is a very good point as well as correct reasoning for why it exists the way it does.

Uh we saw this already back in MDI for Legion... where the tactic for every dungeon is pull as much as you can then AoE Burst them down. If your class can't do AoE burst, might as well not play M+ because you can't contribute to that tactic.

The whole point of these affixes, dungeon design, and class changes is to limit that very limited MDI kind of strategy.

This is part of it. Some affixes are certainly geared toward ST, but they haven't really made that much of an impact.

It is more the variety. The dungeons already get stale over the course of a season or expansion. If they were literally exactly the same every week, no differences in pulls or route because of affix A or affix B, they would be even more stale.

They try to walk a line between "my route from last week is worthless, I have to relearn the dungeon" and "my route is exactly the same for all affixes" and hope people land on "there is small, skill based variation I make in my route week to week to deal with different affixes".


But... when you just run 8 15s every week and they're piss easy, people generally run the exact same route anyway and overgear it. And on the higher end they tend to wait out certain affix combos for "push weeks" (which seems a lot less common this season?)

[Temna]

Honestly the healthiest thing they could do for M+ is the removal of arbitrary group buffs like DH magic vuln to open up more potential variety. Same with inscription buffs and drums though I do think giving lust to 1 other existing vlass might not be a terrible idea either but that one I can take or leave.

[Aresk]

I would say again, remove depletion if not on time, keep timer for upgrading keys. No-one loses. Actually it's better for pushers, because you don't progress negatively.

I'd be fine with that if they also added a mechanism (maybe a "use" option with a confirmation box) to manually downgrade keys. In my community, we have three groups of people doing M+: those pushing 18s at this point with the goal of getting the 20s on time, those wanting 15s for their vault loot, and those running 7's during the Mythic weekly event for their heroic raid loot. Sometimes only the first group has a key to offer, so we intentionally drop the key level to make it more competitive for the lower group. I wouldn't want someone inadvertently getting stuck with a key that they simply had no hope of finishing.