In Defense of Difficulty

[Efcharisto]

Where? When? Are you confusing me with someone else?


So you're saying "give them something, but make sure it's ugly"? Why, though? Why NOT reward higher effort with a better reward? That seems to be a core mechanic not just of this game


The rest of the world DOES disagree with you, at least in the sense that they expect rewards to be at least somewhat proportional to the effort invested; this is clearly borne out by the available data (like participation rates etc.): if you put rewards on something, participation goes up, and if you don't it does not.

You're saying let's forget about that and just put some token reward on there with the expressed intent of making it WORSE than a reward for something requiring less effort. Which seems to go entirely counter to what the data says people respond to.

I'm not sure there's a need to usurp that - ESPECIALLY for rewards that have no value other than aesthetics or prestige.

By saying there's no need to usurp something you think is important over something that has no value other than xyz you are outright saying xyz is not important enough.

Once again, being exceptional in this context is often not about effort. Not deserving of such a highly sought after reward. And when it is, that's even more often because you had a privilege others did not. Not always, but quite often.

Not necessarily ugly. Just not better looking than what others can get if they try just as hard but come up short.

No. You say the rest of the world disagrees based on your interpretation of the data you've looked at. Obviously participation is going to go up if there is a prize people want. But whether that participation actually yields what is sought after is another story. And so is whether the people that participate and do get what they are after would care much less if they hadn't had to put in more effort. You asked if I have anything to back up my point and I ask the same of you. Do you? Because the supposed data you assert doesn't prove your point. It doesn't prove that only the best players should get the best looking cosmetics. Because getting more participation in the highest tiers isn't everything.

[Glordif]

I broadly agree with the OPs post, I disagree with the current remaining WoW pundits the game is not absolutely not designed for the RFW or the top 1%. I don't even think Blizzard design to thwart those players. A lot of people don't realise but for every guild that clear cutting edge before halfway through the tier they're 3x more guilds who progress and either get it just before the tier ends or not at all. Blizzard caters to these players.

It makes logical sense, how many here only raid normal or heroic and after killing the final boss stop until the new patch. Towards the end of the tier you don't see guilds advertising for heroic or normal raids spots. Blizzard have identified that these players still pushing mythic tend to remain active much further through the patch and over time have shifted their design to focus on these players. We're not talking the top 10% here. I'd argue this number is closer to 40% of the current player base.

Blizzard need to realise these players are sticking around for the challenge so they don't need as much curation and stop trying to hold back their progress with week 8 creation catalyst nonsense. In my view Blizzard need to take a look at that heroic and normal group. They need to clearly define what difficulty these modes are for and who they expect to clear them.

Finally they need to give those players something to keep them engaged after they clear the heroic content. These players don't care about the competition or being the best so mythic + and pvp are something their not interested in. Player housing is an obvious example, but better crafting or other non progression systems are great ways to keep these players logging in. In the end I'm not a game designer so I don't know what's best. What I think Blizzard need to worry about is that I don't think they're good enough game designers to cater to these players

[cparle87]

User feedback which generally doesn't end well. It's how a lot of games go awry when developers abandon their own vision for a game to placate the whims of their customers. You can't have missed how many people over the years think they're better designers than Blizzard or want to vote on every feature as to whether it goes in or not. Letting your customers design the game is usually the end.

It sometimes happens with long-running games where the same people have run it for a long while. At some point inspiration runs out and new content becomes a game of moving deck chairs around. Sound familiar?

EDIT: One more thing. If it sounds like I'm implying that successful game developers should ignore a lot of customer feedback I clearly am. I do think that one of the significant issues with the current game is that collectively they've let their customers guide them into decisions where they abandoned their original design altogether. Cataclysm and their reaction to the first six months of people leaving is probably the clearest example of that. Sometimes it's required as a business thing. But once it starts, it usually spreads until the cart is driving the horse. There's an argument to be made that WoW is deep in the throes of this despite the constant bickering that they don't listen. They do and often results don't show up until the next expansion a year or so down the line.

Another example I think is that Blizzard used to pride itself on iterating on systems until they had them right. Now they simply abandon them because people hate the initial roll-outs. Throw-away systems, throw-away content, expansions that, in fact, act more like standalone sequels than a coherent whole.

Exactly this. I've been thinking this for years. And the problem with this is, as you said, it happens years down the road. People hated dungeons being the be-all end-all for everything (valor, gear, etrc) so MoP had worthless dungeons. MoP had tons of dailies including 2 reps locked behind a third one. WoD had no dailies everything option so the raid or die mindset came in along with "lol no content." So Legion we had infinite progression from artifacts but people burned out on that. So BFA made the infinite progression less powerful but added alternate progression from azerite gear and essences. And now we have covenants. I wonder how Blizz will react to the feedback this time.

[Shinrael]

I disagree. For a game like WoW, you want as broad of a userbase as possible that enjoys a variety of different activities. World Quests, Old Raids, Mount Farming, LFR, etc. while also providing more difficult content that players opt into. I'd further argue that old content is an extremely lucrative market that WoW doesn't exploit enough. The development costs have already been paid. Expanding the time people explore the content only makes fiscal sense.

The player base that WoW should cater to the most are the casual players by giving them:
1. Easy alternate progression that doesn't require group content but is limited by weekly distribution limits
2. Easy access to engage in alternate game play (old raids, pet battles, old dungeons). This includes more portals and teleports to old raids, etc.

That's more of FFXIV's design paradigm and it pays off in spades because it doesn't make the game a die hard grind fest and makes it easier for players with limited time to hop on for an hour or two and find something enjoyable to do.

Suggestions I'd make for WoW specifically are:
1. Account wide teleportation unlocks (with a cooldown) to old dungeons or raids. The account wide cooldowns would be reset when the end boss of the raid or dungeon is killed.
2. Bad luck protection for rare drops. For example, the first time you kill X boss the rare mount or item has a 1% drop rate, next time it's a 1.1% drop rate, etc. Additionally, transmog items that you don't have are more likely to drop than items you do have. This would need a toggle, though, in case you were intentionally farming for a duplicate item.

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Yeah, but my point is that a game with a broader base makes more money and games that make more money generally have more resources available when it comes to development, etc, benefiting both the casual and hardcore player.

Maybe it's because I've played MMOs for so long but the more difficult a game is, the more likely I'm going to seek out the meta, and the less likely I'm going to engage in explorative game play. Especially with the internet, since there's always a guide that explains generally the best and most efficient ways to do things.

You are not disagreeing with anything because you have not addressed anything in my post. Perhaps you quoted me by mistake?
But what you say saddens me deeply, so I will reply anyway.

I disagree.

1) ALL games should cater to the vision of the developers making them. Stop making things you do not enjoy making. Make things you enjoy and like-minded people will come. Majority of WoW players are casuals.... BECAUSE THE GAME IS CATERING TO THEM. Make a game for non-casuals, and non-casuals will come to you. Again, Elden Ring and DOS2 are perfect examples. Blizzard has insane amounts of profit from WoW and other games. Yet they continue making games that waste your time rather than being challenging and fun for casuals (non-casuals get their challenge/fun from Raids/PvP). Having more money does not mean the game will be better. Because developers will pour the money they got into more of the same thing that generated that money. So if "casual" content generates money, they will make more "casual" content rather than make something interesting and challenging and fun.

2) I am what people call a casual. And as a casual, none of your suggestions make the game more enjoyable for me. A portal to old raids will not make old raids more enjoyable. You can give me a portal to my IRL workplace and I will still not want to spend 9 hours there (this is just an example, I actually enjoy my work, but most people don't).

3) What makes the gameplay of games fun (story and other elements of games are not included here) are the challenge and the tools to overcome that challenge. Games provide constant challenge. Once they stop being challenging, they are just wasting your time. Challenge does not mean Mythic difficulty. Lucid Nightmare puzzle was challenging. Traversing Suramar and Withered Training Scenario in 7.0 with WQ gear was challenging. Figuring out Rolo's Riddle in Timeless Isle was challenging. These are all activities that do not require you to be skilled at your class. Yet they were challenging. Why? They required you to think, to use your brain, to figure things out, to watch out for mobs/landmarks/things, to pay attention. All 3 were content designed for "casuals" (a.k.a non-raiders/PvPers). All 3 were amazingly good and fun. We rarely ever get that kind of content in WoW. Why? Why is leveling not like that? Why do quests just tell you where to go? Why do mobs just auto attack you? These are problems WoW needs to address. Fun gameplay should not be a miracle, it should be the standard. Gathering cool transmogs is fun, I agree. But as it is right now, there is 0 challenge/fun in running old raids. Mind you, feeling nostalgic or appreciating the aesthetic of a said old raid does not equal fun. I can appreciate something's beauty whilst being challenged. People are only running old raids because the rewards are so lucrative (shiny armor that they couldn't get when it was current). Take that away and who will be doing old raids? I might still visit Sunwell every now and then because I love the aesthetic of that place but... how many people would do it? And how often? Would it justify paying a sub?

4) I too advocate for more account wide progression and bad luck protection. But those will not make the game more fun. They will make the game more tolerable. Making things tolerable should not be a goal to strive for.

5) If you disagree with my points above, please describe to me in detail what a "fun" game is and the last time you had genuine fun playing a game.

[Osmeric]

1) ALL games should cater to the vision of the developers making them.

And the flip side of that: if the vision doesn't work commercially, the developer should be replaced with one whose vision does work. That way, the game can reach a state where the (current) developer's vision is respected, and yet the game works commercially.

This is how it works in creative fields. Sure, you can insist on the purity of your vision. But you can't insist that others have an obligation to pay you for it. You are competing with plenty of other creatives who have their own distinct visions; why is yours to be preferred over theirs?

[Diatribe]

The distinction that needs made is:

Creating challenging experiences versus making things hard, just to be hard.

[kamuimac]

Was there a time in woes history that you were happy with the gearing structure? If so, when?

cant speak for him - but the most fun in wow i had back in wolk - mop era - when game was easy fun and felt very rewarding with badges/vp system

i never even for a second felt need to have full hc raid gear back then - and neither did most players

we all were perfeckly happy with our crappy badge / dungeon gear on alts. and game was so much better back then without infinite dififculties for nolifers. but when there was clear moment of "uff im done gearing that char "

since wod it has been nothing but downhill for wow. because thats when they started to severly overtune everything in game making casuals feel unwanted

FF now is basicly wow from that era to everyone who plays it. they really learned all lessons from wow and how to not design their game.
thats why they are the mmo king supreme atm .

i cannot wait enough for wolk classic. when it releases retail is dead to me.

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The distinction that needs made is:

Creating challenging experiences versus making things hard, just to be hard.

simplest solution ? tournament realms

let all toxic elitest nolifers swam in the same puddle of toxic garbage and s.... separated from casuals.

asian mmorpgs figured that out years ago .

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Exactly this. I've been thinking this for years. And the problem with this is, as you said, it happens years down the road. People hated dungeons being the be-all end-all for everything (valor, gear, etrc) so MoP had worthless dungeons. MoP had tons of dailies including 2 reps locked behind a third one. WoD had no dailies everything option so the raid or die mindset came in along with "lol no content." So Legion we had infinite progression from artifacts but people burned out on that. So BFA made the infinite progression less powerful but added alternate progression from azerite gear and essences. And now we have covenants. I wonder how Blizz will react to the feedback this time.

nah they failed because they listened to top 5 % and streamers and kept reinventing the wheel .

instead stick to simple working solutions of what wolk/cata had aka

a)badge gear
b)2-3 completly new dungeons each tier.
c)raids decently chalenging but not being a frikkin monster basterd child of action shooter and frogger.

there was never need for reinventing wheel - what there was need for is each tier lasting 7-8 months.

instead wasting time on convoluted systems that nobody needs they woudl rather design raids that have 7-8 bosses and put completly new 4 dungeons each tier.
maybe first tier instead releasing 8 dungeons release 4 and save next 4 for X.1 ? instead hiring woke lgbt enforcer hire more dungeon designers.

viola 90 % of wows problems solved instantly.

you can counter it that elitest nolifers would cry that they run out of content to fast ? i say f.... them - tell them to leave game and go .... themselves. they are the reason we got SL. game should be never catered totop 5% only .

then they would loose 5-10 % each tier but who would be coming back tier after tier. instead loosing 95% who now play FF14 not wow.

SL is unsalvagable but there is still hope for 10.0 if we fight with them hard enough - starting with absolutely nobody preordering on 19th showing them to not mess with players.

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If you want a difficult MMO go try Wildstar. Oh wait...

wow is technicaly much harder then wildstar at this point.

[Shinrael]

And the flip side of that: if the vision doesn't work commercially, the developer should be replaced with one whose vision does work. That way, the game can reach a state where the (current) developer's vision is respected, and yet the game works commercially.

This is how it works in creative fields. Sure, you can insist on the purity of your vision. But you can't insist that others have an obligation to pay you for it. You are competing with plenty of other creatives who have their own distinct visions; why is yours to be preferred over theirs?

Not sure why this is about my vision? If Ion is Lead Game Design, then it's about his vision. If his vision of the game leads to everyone quitting, then his vision wasn't good enough. And that's fine. People won't play his game and that's it. Now, in the case of big companies like Acti-Blizzard, there are people above him and they can just fire/replace him. And they are free to do that if they deem his results unsatisfying.

If we are talking about an indie game dev, then if the dev's vision isn't good enough.... people won't play it? End of story? What's the problem? I still stand by the words that devs shouldn't cater to anyone in particular and your post hasn't opposed that statement.

But actually there's no such thing as "vision" not working. If you sit down and spend hours, days, months, years to come up with a gameplay loop that you enjoy (literally ENVISION it) and turn that into a game.... you cannot fail. It might be just you that likes that gameplay loop and you might not sell many copies... but you made a game that you enjoy? Anything else is worse. Making a game that sells but you don't enjoy is a worse way of life than making a game that you enjoy but doesn't sell. Now, if you never even stopped to think if you enjoy the game and it ended up not selling... well duuh? The vision didn't fail. It did not exist in the first place and that person should not be a game dev. Like... if you wanna make something, ANYTHING in life, pour your soul into it or go hide somewhere.

[Osmeric]

Not sure why this is about my vision? If Ion is Lead Game Design, then it's about his vision.

I don't think I was implying it was your vision.

[Freighter]

"the average wow player" never does m + in first place

the "Average player that does m+ " most likely stops around 7-8.

people who clear m+15 are tiny minority .

this is why wow is such bad game - because there are people who genuinly belive that average wow players are people who do +15.
the

without oubt Ion and devs design this game around people who do +15 - and that why SL lost 90 % of players

Doing a +15 is the bare minimum if you're remotely interested in m+ as a game mode. You could do a +15 in gear from the previous season without any problems on the first week of the new season.

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cant speak for him - but the most fun in wow i had back in wolk - mop era - when game was easy fun and felt very rewarding with badges/vp system

The only positive about mop was that the class design was excellent for most classes. The reward system was shit.

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Dude, just give up, they don’t understand.

Maybe if Blizzard forces everyone to pug only for an entire season they will understand how shitty the game actually is for people that cannot benefit a proper guild.

The problem with pugging is that most people in pugs are clueless about the game. Stop pugging and get friends to play with if you don't like dealing with that.

[Gaidax]

Majority of WoW players are casuals.... BECAUSE THE GAME IS CATERING TO THEM. Make a game for non-casuals, and non-casuals will come to you.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but majority of MMO players are casuals, period.

That's why Wildstar so epically failed. They also were slurping that "HARDCOARRR" kool-aid and successfully chased off all those filthy casuals that keep the lights on for such MMOs.

This is the reality - for every non-casual, there are 20 casuals and you need them if you want to keep afloat.

Besides, Blizzard already tried that and failed hard.

[Argorwal]

For all the people saying they are casual.

Real casuals don’t read, let alone post, on mmo-champion.

[Kokolums]

Does this mean the game could be more popular and make more money? Sure! But why do we, as gamers, care about that again? As long as the game makes enough revenue to sustain itself and keep up a decent production schedule, then what is the problem, exactly?

Because companies often have profit thresholds. If profit margins dip below a certain percent, they sometimes shutter the business, regardless if it is still profitable or not.

[HansOlo]

WoW is doing this right now. Look at the RWF.

Elden Ring has sold well over 10 million copies in a few months. Divinity OS 2 is widely considered the greatest CRPG of all time and made bank.

Elden Ring and other games aren't quality games.

The biggest marketing today is the streamers.

Asmongold could pick up solitaire and even more people from the most active server on WoW would play solitaire. It still doesn't say anything about WoW or solitaire.

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Elden Ring is the equivalent of someone picking up WoW with Shadowlands and playing for 1-2 months or WoW without Shadowlands for 4 months so it's not really comparable.

I'd also argue that Elden Ring could've sold even more copies if it was more accessible (easy difficulty, etc.), not less.

Personally, a lot of Elden Ring's design I don't agree with because it intentionally involves hindering the player and bringing the player out of the game to look up things on a Wiki or the Internet.

I'm not saying it should have quest tracking, etc. on as a default option but there should be an option to reduce the difficulty and turn on tracking.

That said, as a mostly single player game, accessibility matters a lot less than a MMO.

It's a bugged trash game having the spot light - because of the leftovers from the FF wagon or the streamer generation decided so.

[Shinrael]

Sorry to burst your bubble, but majority of MMO players are casuals, period.

That's why Wildstar so epically failed. They also were slurping that "HARDCOARRR" kool-aid and successfully chased off all those filthy casuals that keep the lights on for such MMOs.

This is the reality - for every non-casual, there are 20 casuals and you need them if you want to keep afloat.

Besides, Blizzard already tried that and failed hard.

Calm down, you're not bursting any bubbles. All MMO players, rather than just WoW's, being casual is news to no one. And I will repeat what I already said "BECAUSE THE GAMES ARE CATERING TO THEM".

But here is where you're missing the point: Blizzard and other MMO developers don't know what a casual is. If you too think casual is a player who wants to be spoonfed, then you need to be spoonfed some sense. A casual is a player who does not follow the FOMO trends and just does whatever they want. A player who doesn't invest themselves. Casual is not an opposite of "hardcooaaar". The fact that you even brought that up shows up how messed up the situation is. What does "also" mean? Where did you see me use the word harcore?

If anything, WoW has been catering to hardcore players. WoW caters to both hardcore and casual players. And that's not 2 different audiences. It is ONE audience. Majority of M+ players. It's an audience that wants to progress the game and get challenge and a good reward for it. Non-casual hardcore players do Mythic raiding and high-end rated PvP. But since the casuals do not want to invest as much time and effort (which is not a bad thing), they choose to invest their time and effort into dungeons, as that is a lot more accessible. Of course, some non-casual hardcore players run dungeons too and they are the ones who push keys beyond +15.

So for the love of the Titans, stop mixing up casuals and hardcore players. They are not two separate entitites. They do not contradict each other. Wildstar did not fail because of catering to hardcore gamers. It simply wasn't appealing in any way. It wasn't visually appealing, the setting was inferior to WoW's - too much on the sci-fi side (this is my own opinion, but considering the failure of the game, it's not hard to assume it must have been so for many people). I gave it a try and was just so "meh".

Elden Ring is a good example of what I am saying above - it's a game that suits hardcore players. All DS games do. BUT. It also suits casual players. Or should I say it CASUAL HARDCORE players (unlike the other DS games). That's why it is so succesful. The developer had a vision and followed it through and this game was born. And since it provides both challenge and enough ways to overcome that challenge, people absolutely loved it. And so do I.

The problem with WoW is that Blizzard does not understand what a casual is either. The whole game comes down to Raids, Dungeons and PvP. And those 3 activities come down to being good at target swapping, playing the piano and keeping track of addon messages that tell you when to move, use an ability, etc. All these things require only two skills: fast reflexes and good coordination. What about the people with slower reflexes, poorer coordination but superior strategy skills? Why does nothing require you to use your brain and come up with a plan? Raid comes out and there is a guide. If you don't read it, you don't get invited. You can start your own group but why would anyone join you and try to learn the fight on their own, when it's easier to just read the guide and join a group that does the same? The game is designed to be read about in a guide. Because guides and addons exist, Blizzard has to make the raids so complex that good luck figuring things out on the fly and obviously Mythic raiders manage to do that, but they started somewhere too. People need a proper learning curve if they are to do something so difficult. I thought I couldn't do it and then I played Elden Ring and after getting wrecked by some bosses I decided to figure out a strategy on my own before using guides and I actually managed to. And it was an amazing feeling. And now when I fight a harder boss, which I could not have figured out when I started, I am already forming a strategy in my mind on the go. There are a only a few examples where Blizzard made content that requires you to problem-solve: Lucid Nightmare puzzle, Rolo's Riddle, Withered Training Scenario and a few more. Why isn't there more of this stuff? WHY?

For all the people saying they are casual.

Real casuals don’t read, let alone post, on mmo-champion.

Please, be my guest and describe what a casual is.

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Elden Ring and other games aren't quality games.

Care to elaborate?

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The distinction that needs made is:

Creating challenging experiences versus making things hard, just to be hard.

This. So much this. Like I can't wrap my mind around the fact people cannot comprehend this.

[LedZeppelin]

For all the people saying they are casual.

Real casuals don’t read, let alone post, on mmo-champion.

Finally, a king amongst men

[MoanaLisa]

But here is where you're missing the point: Blizzard and other MMO developers don't know what a casual is.

Arguably they think they do and have good reason for thinking so even if it misses the mark. The main lesson they learned in Warlords was that casual players do not want to run out of things to do. They're not wrong even if that's not the full story.

We can argue forever about the quality of the things they have created to solve that problem but starting with world quests and going on from there the non-instanced non-PVP piece of the game has had stuff to do. Think back to Ion's presentation in Legion and one of the early things he emphasized was that players would be busy and have things to do.

A lot of what they do now isn't that much to my personal liking but some of the social groups I read (especially on Facebook) are busy with requests about how to do this and that. For the most part they are not complaining. We really don't understand how many players are weekend or only-play-occasionally people but as one of those—I play at most twice a week—keeping caught up, being on the never-ending "treadmill of gear", and anything that is thought of as grindy are things of the past. The game is basically OK for us. There are regular and heroic dungeons, there's LFR and there is whatever there is to do in a zone. This patch apparently is about collecting pets and mounts.

Again, I'd like to see something a bit more interesting that long lists of things to collect but a lot of people enjoy that and they're not wrong to do so. So for me the question of whether or not WoW's developers understand what a casual player is, I think they do although it's an incomplete understanding and even those of us who don't play much recognize when systems are used over and over with minimal amounts of moving deck chairs around.

@Argorwal: I'm casual as fuck and I've been here for over 10 years now. There are others although forums no longer offer much if any useful help (see class forums here). That can be found on Facebook and other social media if one knows where to look. Icy Veins does a decent job of getting people started on playing their class as well. So in one sense you're correct. Casuals mostly don't post here because really, who needs the abuse and there's nothing much here that's helpful anyway.

[Shinrael]

Arguably they think they do and have good reason for thinking so even if it misses the mark. The main lesson they learned in Warlords was that casual players do not want to run out of things to do. They're not wrong even if that's not the full story.

We can argue forever about the quality of the things they have created to solve that problem but starting with world quests and going on from there the non-instanced non-PVP piece of the game has had stuff to do. Think back to Ion's presentation in Legion and one of the early things he emphasized was that players would be busy and have things to do.

A lot of what they do now isn't that much to my personal liking but some of the social groups I read (especially on Facebook) are busy with requests about how to do this and that. For the most part they are not complaining. We really don't understand how many players are weekend or only-play-occasionally people but as one of those—I play at most twice a week—keeping caught up, being on the never-ending "treadmill of gear", and anything that is thought of as grindy are things of the past. The game is basically OK for us. There are regular and heroic dungeons, there's LFR and there is whatever there is to do in a zone. This patch apparently is about collecting pets and mounts.

Again, I'd like to see something a bit more interesting that long lists of things to collect but a lot of people enjoy that and they're not wrong to do so. So for me the question of whether or not WoW's developers understand what a casual player is, I think they do although it's an incomplete understanding and even those of us who don't play much recognize when systems are used over and over with minimal amounts of moving deck chairs around.

@Argorwal: I'm casual as fuck and I've been here for over 10 years now. There are others although forums no longer offer much if any useful help (see class forums here). That can be found on Facebook and other social media if one knows where to look. Icy Veins does a decent job of getting people started on playing their class as well. So in one sense you're correct. Casuals mostly don't post here because really, who needs the abuse and there's nothing much here that's helpful anyway.

True. They think they do, but they don't. Being busy and having fun are two so very different concepts.... World Quests give you things to do in outdoor world. They are not fun however. They could have been fun if they didn't appear on the map at all. Imagine that out there in Val'sharah there is a WQ but it does not appear anywhere. So you're going about your business gathering herbs and you encounter an NPC in front of a cave entrance that wasn't there before. They do not have a marker. But if you interact with them, they will have the following text dialogue "I hear whispers from this cave.... I am afraid to go inside but... I need to know...." and you decide to go inside and see if there's something. You reach the bottom and you see a Beast of the Nightmare miniboss. It has some mechanics (imagine a dungeon boss scaled down to 2 man size). If you're a good or geared ("hardcore") player, you can probably handle it after 3-4 tries (just need to figure out the mechanics). OR you can just write in the zone general chat "Found a hidden miniboss, anyone care to join?" and get 2-3 people and steamroll through it (it won't scale up with party size). When you defeat it, it drops two pieces of Normal Raid level loot and a bunch of currency tokens. So if you killed it solo, you get all the gear and currencies. If you 2 manned it, you split the loot (the currencies too). And if you cheesed it with more people, you gotta roll for the stuff. These kind of hidden events could appear all over the game world. They would not be marked or revealed in any way. Only way to stumble upon them would be by chance while exploring the game. Obviously, there is a limit to how many of these can be created and people will eventually write a list of them all and Hardcore players might decide to just check every location every day.... but then why would Hardcore players go through so much effort for a Normal Raid level item... when they can just do HC/Mythic? Casuals too could check a list and collect all the items, basically "cheesing" the game. And that is fine. It's okay to cheese a game. If you want to cheese things and you find that fun, by all means do so. And then the even more casual players who do not check things online will only reap the benefits because they won't know there's a hidden challenge and epic loot waiting for them there. It will be a genuine and epic surprise. And they can have fun exploring the world. Things being hidden in this manner is the exact thing that will make the world alive. As it is right now, the game tells you exactly where you need to go and exactly what you need to do "Travel to X, kill Y" and then you just ignore everything else. Whereas, if these things remain hidden, then you either stumble at them by chance or you put great effort finding them (or you cheese it). And all of these options are okay. Nobody is going to compete about Normal Raid gear. The sky won't fall down.

[MoanaLisa]

True. They think they do, but they don't. Being busy and having fun are two so very different concepts.... World Quests give you things to do in outdoor world. They are not fun however. They could have been fun if they didn't appear on the map at all.

Yeah, all of that post. They have largely abandoned the greater idea of exploration.

[User517849]

You are not disagreeing with anything because you have not addressed anything in my post. Perhaps you quoted me by mistake?
But what you say saddens me deeply, so I will reply anyway.

I disagree.

1) ALL games should cater to the vision of the developers making them. Stop making things you do not enjoy making. Make things you enjoy and like-minded people will come. Majority of WoW players are casuals.... BECAUSE THE GAME IS CATERING TO THEM. Make a game for non-casuals, and non-casuals will come to you. Again, Elden Ring and DOS2 are perfect examples. Blizzard has insane amounts of profit from WoW and other games. Yet they continue making games that waste your time rather than being challenging and fun for casuals (non-casuals get their challenge/fun from Raids/PvP). Having more money does not mean the game will be better. Because developers will pour the money they got into more of the same thing that generated that money. So if "casual" content generates money, they will make more "casual" content rather than make something interesting and challenging and fun.

2) I am what people call a casual. And as a casual, none of your suggestions make the game more enjoyable for me. A portal to old raids will not make old raids more enjoyable. You can give me a portal to my IRL workplace and I will still not want to spend 9 hours there (this is just an example, I actually enjoy my work, but most people don't).

3) What makes the gameplay of games fun (story and other elements of games are not included here) are the challenge and the tools to overcome that challenge. Games provide constant challenge. Once they stop being challenging, they are just wasting your time. Challenge does not mean Mythic difficulty. Lucid Nightmare puzzle was challenging. Traversing Suramar and Withered Training Scenario in 7.0 with WQ gear was challenging. Figuring out Rolo's Riddle in Timeless Isle was challenging. These are all activities that do not require you to be skilled at your class. Yet they were challenging. Why? They required you to think, to use your brain, to figure things out, to watch out for mobs/landmarks/things, to pay attention. All 3 were content designed for "casuals" (a.k.a non-raiders/PvPers). All 3 were amazingly good and fun. We rarely ever get that kind of content in WoW. Why? Why is leveling not like that? Why do quests just tell you where to go? Why do mobs just auto attack you? These are problems WoW needs to address. Fun gameplay should not be a miracle, it should be the standard. Gathering cool transmogs is fun, I agree. But as it is right now, there is 0 challenge/fun in running old raids. Mind you, feeling nostalgic or appreciating the aesthetic of a said old raid does not equal fun. I can appreciate something's beauty whilst being challenged. People are only running old raids because the rewards are so lucrative (shiny armor that they couldn't get when it was current). Take that away and who will be doing old raids? I might still visit Sunwell every now and then because I love the aesthetic of that place but... how many people would do it? And how often? Would it justify paying a sub?

4) I too advocate for more account wide progression and bad luck protection. But those will not make the game more fun. They will make the game more tolerable. Making things tolerable should not be a goal to strive for.

5) If you disagree with my points above, please describe to me in detail what a "fun" game is and the last time you had genuine fun playing a game.

What challenge does Elden Ring lose if they added an easier difficulty that wasn't unlocked by default? It could even be difficult to unlock, for example, by dying 10 times to the first boss in the game. All that would happen is people that were turned off by the difficulty of Elden Ring would know they had a path forward. They could intentionally or unintentionally die 10 times to the first boss and chose the easier difficulty.

There's generally four different axioms of what makes a game enjoyable:
Achievers, those are people that tend to favor making progress at something (achievements, gear, mounts, pets, etc.)
Customization (socializers), these are people that enjoy getting different transmog options and experimenting with transmog and other looks.
Competitive advantage (PvP, Raiding), these are people that enjoy raiding not because of the difficulty but because the gear gives them an advantage over other players
Content (explorers) these are people that simply enjoy exploring

Challenge doesn't necessarily fit into any of those archetypes, though it is a consequence of competitive advantage (if everything is quick and easy to get, then no one has an advantage over anyone else).

I certainly don't enjoy a game like WoW, where "challenging" is more or less tied to your gear level, as being overly challenging. For example, take the difference of Torghast's difficulty at launch (where I felt like it was a struggle and a time sink) compared to now. I found nerfed Torghast much more enjoyable because it was faster and didn't penalize me as severely for mistakes.

Often, I enjoy grouping up with a friend and simply doing World Bosses and World Quests. I haven't raided because of how much of a sunk cost raiding is.