Horde Evil/Honorable Balance?

[wushootaki]

The developers just need to go back to putting in the actual time and effort to design unique quest chains for the factions. Vanilla, TBC, WotLK, MoP are all very memorable because neither faction is specifically evil, and both are focusing on their own questing paths...the appeal is in HOW the factions tackle those problems.

The Horde should be unapologetic, and about taking action, consequences be damned. Deal with them when they come --- But this shouldn't be written to make them evil.

Alliance should be more strategic in their choices, trying to find the best solution.

The approach to the Pandaren Starting zone with the difference between the two schools of thought is a perfect example of this. So is the Original Onyxia quest chains.

Alliance Onyxia Chain: Internal political drama dating back to the Defias that culminates in uncovering a Black dragon posing as a noble

Horde Onyxia Chain: Dude, we are the horde. Let's kill dragons to show how badass we are. Oh snap, there is another Horde aligned with evil black dragons. Let's take them out.

- - - Updated - - -

Finally, if the Horde leaders did not want to be complicit with the actions of Sylvanas, they needed to both voice their dissent and refuse to involve themselves in needless conflicts. In this instance, they did neither and simply went along with the campaign. There's a reason why most political and military alliances come with caveats, such as ensuring mutual defense while allowing member states to opt out of committing resources to bolster another member states acts aggression. While the Horde political system is primitive and the Warchief does technically have the power to try and compel member states to provide resources, the fact is that refusing to do so would likely not result in any form of civil war, as this would simply weaken the Horde and push the outcast factions towards the Alliance. That said, even if civil war was the result, that doesn't actually change anything. You do not get to have your cake and eat it too: you cannot simultaneously commit yourself to a military campaign and then also say you're not responsible for the outcome of that campaign.

Not trying to absolve fault, but Sylvannas made a good argument to convince the Horde to go ahead with the War of Thorns. How long before the Alliance got to choose the Horde's fate? Especially if they got their hands on Azerite and the Horde didn't? Varian was gone, Jaina was out for Blood from Theramore, Genn was out for blood from his son, etc. Lor'themar also saw first-hand what happened under that type of leadership with Garithos. Again, not absolving them...just pointing out that there is a rationale that makes sense here for why they agree and join her.


That said, the worst part about all of it is how Alliance players act like Horde players have a choice in the matter. We don't. We are either forced into doing these quests, or we don't get to play the game. It sucks just as much if you aren't about that WC2 life, which most aren't.

[Ogren]

Get the people that write the factions from the Star Wars TOR MMO, they seem to have a better grasp at giving both factions a level of hidden depth and nuance despite it being a clear good vs. evil power struggle.

[Magical Mudcrab]

Not trying to absolve fault, but Sylvannas made a good argument to convince the Horde to go ahead with the War of Thorns. How long before the Alliance got to choose the Horde's fate? Especially if they got their hands on Azerite and the Horde didn't? Varian was gone, Jaina was out for Blood from Theramore, Genn was out for blood from his son, etc. Lor'themar also saw first-hand what happened under that type of leadership with Garithos. Again, not absolving them...just pointing out that there is a rationale that makes sense here for why they agree and join her.

That said, the worst part about all of it is how Alliance players act like Horde players have a choice in the matter. We don't. We are either forced into doing these quests, or we don't get to play the game. It sucks just as much if you aren't about that WC2 life, which most aren't.

The problem is that none of this is really applicable here. What the Horde had experienced so far was that the Alliance was more than willing to forgive transgressions, with the most recent instance of this being Varian choosing to allow the Horde to continue to exist as equals after Siege of Orgrimmar. The Horde had no reason to believe the Alliance would suddenly become an aggressor. The only leader within the Alliance that really bore any ill will towards the Horde at this time was Genn, and all other leaders had either forgiven the Horde or moved past the trauma (Jaina had accepted the events of Theramore as Garrosh's doing, and Anduin was still actively engaging with the Horde in diplomacy).

It should also be noted that characters like Garithos were members of the original Grand Alliance - the Alliance of Lordaeron. Frankly, if Lor'themar still had any reservations about people like Garithos, it should have been with the Forsaken alone. The Forsaken are almost exclusively citizens of Lordaeron, with many of the Deathguard likely even coming from their military.

[exochaft]

One of the problems I see with the character/faction writing in WoW is that I feel like it's portraying the beliefs and understanding of the writing team itself. Basically, the writing team's concepts of good/evil (and I'd say morality in general) is probably way out of whack, and it can't comprehend/rationalize anything outside of their own beliefs.

Maybe it's becoming a generational thing, but the foundation of my morality comes from fundamental/core truths, and everything is built upon that. If someone proposes a scenario, I can easily go back to my core truths and build my way up to the proposed scenario to keep my morality and actions consistent. Now... if you've been following the actions/motivations/morality of the story in WoW, it's all over the place, and that's probably due to there being no fundamental core to the Horde/Alliance/races/characters/etc. (or it's extremely vague, or not referenced to check actions).Again, I feel this is a reflection of the writing team and how they approach morality and actions, as anyone who comes from my school of thought would applying this to their writing to keep it consistent.

Now, I'll say you don't have to approach morality in my way to get consistently written characters, but it helps immensely when trying to write something that may not align with your beliefs or something different than yourself. If you have no litmus test for morality that you can use, you'll end up making your stories and characters based upon morality that doesn't align to you just caricatures on a good day, stereotypes on a bad day. Also, this is how you get some self-insert characters, as one can only copy themselves instead of constructing a moral basis for a character. Again, if you look at the WoW writing, you'll often see that the actions of certain individuals or collectives end up being caricatures or stereotypes with no nuance or reasoning in some cases.

I guess my answer would be just hire a better writing team, and the result (regardless of where you want the Horde to be) will probably be better.

[Super Dickmann]

The problem is that none of this is really applicable here. What the Horde had experienced so far was that the Alliance was more than willing to forgive transgressions, with the most recent instance of this being Varian choosing to allow the Horde to continue to exist as equals after Siege of Orgrimmar. The Horde had no reason to believe the Alliance would suddenly become an aggressor. The only leader within the Alliance that really bore any ill will towards the Horde at this time was Genn, and all other leaders had either forgiven the Horde or moved past the trauma (Jaina had accepted the events of Theramore as Garrosh's doing, and Anduin was still actively engaging with the Horde in diplomacy).

Entirely agreed with you that the sum of the Horde supported Sylvanas and that her opposition were a minority up until she threw in the towel, disagreed on the implications of it. Wrath to Mists was less Varian magnanimously letting the Horde go to function as a peer competitor as a result of a war he declared in the first place and more an inability to dismantle the Horde even if he wanted to. That or him being so exhausted by laughing from watching the rebel trolls into the chainsaws of the giant robot scorpion that he was unable to make reasonable choices, take your pick. Even in BFA the Horde doesn't need any additional reason to figure the Alliance would suddenly become the aggressor, because they already were. They'd tried to off the head of state and attacked the military convoy with said head of state while a war with Satan was ongoing, and that's before fantasy plutonium was widely available. They don't need to consider some hypothetical capacity for belligerence, the belligerence already took place.

Of course we as the audience know that Anduin is a beacon of all that's right who would never hurt another creature of god's kingdom and if those dumbasses just submit and became part of the Unifaction all would be well, but the Horde themselves don't and at the time of Legion it wasn't even the case. Likewise they had no means to come to their conclusion that Sylvanas was actually working for the Devil and when she described a pertinent geopolitical situation she was actually using it as a trojan horse to send people to hell, since that's even more out of any kind of available context than being able to psychoanalyze Anduin and know he was the best thing sliced bread while having no proof towards that.

[Aresk]

Personally? I don't think the issue truly falls with the Horde. The dynamic that the Horde had in Vanilla and early TBC when the BE's were still sorta sinister would work just fine if just one thing changed. The Alliance.

The Alliance needs to stop being the relative good guy compared to the Horde. They need to become just as much of a mixed bag as the Horde was in those earlier days of WoW, if not more so.

I feel like the Alliance has been that, though. Especially back in the pre-Cata days, since Magni basically let the dwarves run amok in Horde territory and hired adventurers to abduct his daughter. In WotLK, the gnomes despoiled ancestral taunka ground with their work while Varian let gryphon riders wage assault on Forsaken holdings and dwarves mucked around in ancient titan facilities, causing issues. Until Garrosh took power and started taking more drastic military actions, they generally went toe-to-toe without one faction coming out on top, with even Cata being relatively even. MoP is really when the narrative shifted with Alliance becoming "the good guys" when Anduin got involved.

[wushootaki]

The problem is that none of this is really applicable here. What the Horde had experienced so far was that the Alliance was more than willing to forgive transgressions, with the most recent instance of this being Varian choosing to allow the Horde to continue to exist as equals after Siege of Orgrimmar. The Horde had no reason to believe the Alliance would suddenly become an aggressor. The only leader within the Alliance that really bore any ill will towards the Horde at this time was Genn, and all other leaders had either forgiven the Horde or moved past the trauma (Jaina had accepted the events of Theramore as Garrosh's doing, and Anduin was still actively engaging with the Horde in diplomacy).

It should also be noted that characters like Garithos were members of the original Grand Alliance - the Alliance of Lordaeron. Frankly, if Lor'themar still had any reservations about people like Garithos, it should have been with the Forsaken alone. The Forsaken are almost exclusively citizens of Lordaeron, with many of the Deathguard likely even coming from their military.

Again, it boils down to the Horde being pro-active. WoW has done a good job over the years of showing border disputes with Kul Tirans encroaching on Trolls and Orcs, Dwarves disrupting Tauren burial sites, etc. It's not hard to to believe Sylvannas could twist words enough to get more tribal cultures to rally behind her in light of all past aggressions. The orcs still struggle for lumber, and weren't there also rumors about Si:7 murdering goblins in Silithus? As for blood elves joining the Horde, its mental gymnastics at the expense of an actual Horde ally (Zul'jin) but there's really no point arguing that after 15 years. Garithos was still a human, and with Varian gone you had people like Genn and the chick who attacked in Stormheim to worry about.

[Magical Mudcrab]

Again, it boils down to the Horde being pro-active. WoW has done a good job over the years of showing border disputes with Kul Tirans encroaching on Trolls and Orcs, Dwarves disrupting Tauren burial sites, etc. It's not hard to to believe Sylvannas could twist words enough to get more tribal cultures to rally behind her in light of all past aggressions. The orcs still struggle for lumber, and weren't there also rumors about Si:7 murdering goblins in Silithus? As for blood elves joining the Horde, its mental gymnastics at the expense of an actual Horde ally (Zul'jin) but there's really no point arguing that after 15 years. Garithos was still a human, and with Varian gone you had people like Genn and the chick who attacked in Stormheim to worry about.

But she did none of this. She simply went to Saurfang, said they had an opportunity to end the conflict before it could begin again, and that was enough. There was no deep discussion, no reflection on the Alliance's actions (which were typically in reaction to a larger conflict initiated by the Horde), or anything else. It could be argued, albeit weakly, that the Horde had justification for beginning the war as an attempt to hit a military target, but during the campaign they opted to roll into Night Elven territory, seize cities and outposts which had civilian populations and kill them, and then moved to take Teldrassil. The problem isn't the moving to take a military target, it's everything they did in their campaign, which they knew was wrong and did nothing to try and mitigate and speak against. If you go to war and commit war crimes, which you don't even try and stop from occurring, you can't then turn around and try to act as though you're blameless. Horde leadership is almost as guilty as Sylvanas is for the war crimes which occurred.

Again, saying Garithos was a human and therefore it applies to all humans is a non sequitur; there's no justification for this inference. He wasn't just a human, he was a knight of Lordaeron and a member of the same kingdom that would become the Forsaken population. Therefore, trying to imply that this could be a justification doesn't land. Moreover, Genn and Admiral Rogers are, again, fringe in their dislike of the Horde, and every faction leader knows this. The faction war was, at this point, at a standstill and no one was taking large-scale offensive action.

[Yarathir]

1.) Durotar is unambiguously a refugee situation, not a colonizer situation: The Orcs were fleeing the Eastern Kingdoms & were invited to stay by the Tauren & Trolls who already lived there before the human race even existed.
2.) The Horde has resisted Centuar & Quilboar expansion: But have never attempted to move them from their ancestral land, the Razorfen thickets which erupted where Agamaggan died. Explicitly in those dungeons they're trying to stop a Scourge Lich & rescue some captives.
3.) Look up any history of the Alliance that aren't from the mouths of Alliance characters themselves: The Alliance was only initially formed to push trolls off their ancestral lands.

That combined with the cultural aspect of the Alliance, unlike the Horde, have a rigid sense of what cultural norms they consider acceptable. It paints a stark contrast of a historically anglo-saxon aesthetic versus non-western cultures, with both the good & bad connotations.

lmao orcs are literally extraterrestrial invaders

get out of here

[wushootaki]

But she did none of this. She simply went to Saurfang, said they had an opportunity to end the conflict before it could begin again, and that was enough. There was no deep discussion, no reflection on the Alliance's actions (which were typically in reaction to a larger conflict initiated by the Horde), or anything else. It could be argued, albeit weakly, that the Horde had justification for beginning the war as an attempt to hit a military target, but during the campaign they opted to roll into Night Elven territory, seize cities and outposts which had civilian populations and kill them, and then moved to take Teldrassil. The problem isn't the moving to take a military target, it's everything they did in their campaign, which they knew was wrong and did nothing to try and mitigate and speak against. If you go to war and commit war crimes, which you don't even try and stop from occurring, you can't then turn around and try to act as though you're blameless. Horde leadership is almost as guilty as Sylvanas is for the war crimes which occurred.

Again, saying Garithos was a human and therefore it applies to all humans is a non sequitur; there's no justification for this inference. He wasn't just a human, he was a knight of Lordaeron and a member of the same kingdom that would become the Forsaken population. Therefore, trying to imply that this could be a justification doesn't land. Moreover, Genn and Admiral Rogers are, again, fringe in their dislike of the Horde, and every faction leader knows this. The faction war was, at this point, at a standstill and no one was taking large-scale offensive action.

You clearly don't play Horde to understand the nuances. Horde player quests specifically told you not to target civilians, and you leave them alive in the War of Thorns. Alliance players who return to places like Astranaar later find deathstalker clean-up crews killing the civilians after the bulk Horde army has moved through. The Horde player has no knowledge of this unless they play alliance (which infers that the main Horde army also has no knowledge of this). The war of Thorns and BFA are riddled with this type of bullshit writing --- as Horde players don't know they are working with San'layn unless you actually play the Alliance BFA campaign. The Campaign specifically leaves out a lot of things for the Horde player.

And yes, Sylvannas does do that. It's in a book...and the developers have listed that specifically as her reasoning for how she convinces the Horde to go along with the war.

If the Forsaken had been led by someone Lordaeronian, the Blood Elves would most likely not have joined them because of Garithos. It's specifically because its Sylvannas that Lor'themar decides it will be alright...though he is wary of her in undead form.

[Powerogue]

You clearly don't play Horde to understand the nuances. Horde player quests specifically told you not to target civilians, and you leave them alive in the War of Thorns. Alliance players who return to places like Astranaar later find deathstalker clean-up crews killing the civilians after the bulk Horde army has moved through. The Horde player has no knowledge of this unless they play alliance (which infers that the main Horde army also has no knowledge of this). The war of Thorns and BFA are riddled with this type of bullshit writing --- as Horde players don't know they are working with San'layn unless you actually play the Alliance BFA campaign. The Campaign specifically leaves out a lot of things for the Horde player.

And yes, Sylvannas does do that. It's in a book...and the developers have listed that specifically as her reasoning for how she convinces the Horde to go along with the war.

If the Forsaken had been led by someone Lordaeronian, the Blood Elves would most likely not have joined them because of Garithos. It's specifically because its Sylvannas that Lor'themar decides it will be alright...though he is wary of her in undead form.

I don't see that as "bullshit writing", that's good faction writing. The zones should show you things you didn't see or notice due to being from a different perspective. I still remember the Barrens questline where it has you assassinate an Alliance captain that you only find out in the Alliance version was a good natured man who was the one who gave the order to leave a gap for civilians to escape at Taurajo and who orders you to arrest the looters who lingered in the area. (meanwhile on the Horde side, you just see looters and are told to kill those darn alliance dogs!)

[Magical Mudcrab]

You clearly don't play Horde to understand the nuances.

Except I almost exclusively play Horde nowadays and was aware of what was happening.

Horde player quests specifically told you not to target civilians, and you leave them alive in the War of Thorns. Alliance players who return to places like Astranaar later find deathstalker clean-up crews killing the civilians after the bulk Horde army has moved through.

There's not a single quest telling anyone not to target civilians, and the scouting parties that were assassinating people were an advanced squad. Horde players even participate in the killing of guards of Astranaar prior to the Horde advancing there. Moreover, we even know that these scouting parties were not just groups of Forsaken, as the novella A Good War even details several groups of rogues from various races (albeit, the main named one was Lorash). That a single Alliance quest only used Forsaken rogues is irrelevant when we know the rogues who were poisoning outposts were not just Forsaken.

The Horde player has no knowledge of this unless they play alliance (which infers that the main Horde army also has no knowledge of this).

The Horde player does not matter. What matters is that the faction leaders put resources towards a war and did nothing to mitigate the resulting war crimes. Again, the faction leaders do not get to turn around and wash their hands of this because it went off the rails.

The war of Thorns and BFA are riddled with this type of bullshit writing --- as Horde players don't know they are working with San'layn unless you actually play the Alliance BFA campaign. The Campaign specifically leaves out a lot of things for the Horde player.

The San'layn were introduced to the Horde as part of the Alliance War Campaign in a quest which was disconnected from the War of Thorns. There's not even any mention of San'layn in A Good War.

And yes, Sylvannas does do that. It's in a book...and the developers have listed that specifically as her reasoning for how she convinces the Horde to go along with the war.

This is the full, unedited, quote she uses to make Saurfang question the Alliance:

“I believe the exiles of Gilneas will never forgive the Horde for driving them away. I believe the living humans of Lordaeron think it is blasphemy that my people still hold their city. I believe the ancient divide between our allies in Silvermoon and their kin in Darnassus is not easily mended.” There was a smile on Sylvanas’s face. It was not a pleasant one.

“I believe the Darkspear tribe hasn’t forgotten who drove them from their islands,” she continued. “I believe every orc your age remembers being imprisoned for years in filthy camps, wallowing in despair and surviving on human scraps. I believe every human remembers the tales of the terrible Horde that caused so much destruction in its first invasion, and I believe they blame every orc for that, no matter what your people have done to redeem yourselves. And I remember very well that I and my first Forsaken were once loyal Alliance citizens. We died for that banner, and our reward was to be hunted as vermin. I believe that there will be no permanent peace with the Alliance—not unless we win it on the battlefield on our terms. And believing that, answer this, Saurfang: what use is delaying the inevitable?”

- Genn is known to have acted against Anduin's orders.
- The remnants of Lordaeron living within Alliance territory are so minor a faction that they do not even get mention most of the time, and even then were fully willing to reunite with their Forsaken family and friends in Arathi.
- Darnassus and Silvermoon have never had tensions such that a war would break out (the opposite is even shown in Tyrande and Kael'thas interactions in Warcraft 3), with the only major cause of tension between them being due to the faction conflict of Alliance and Horde.
- The Darkspear tribe was driven out by Kul'tirans, who were unassociated with the current Alliance.
- The internment camps were run by Lordaeron and Alterac, who were both unassociated with the current Alliance.

The parts that are relevant are known to be fringe, radical elements that do not represent the Alliance as a whole, and the rest is literally lying the blame of everything humans have ever done at the feet of Stormwind. It's literally the equivalent of saying "The Gurubashi have attacked Alliance forces in the past, the Darkspear should be dealt with."

If the Forsaken had been led by someone Lordaeronian, the Blood Elves would most likely not have joined them because of Garithos. It's specifically because its Sylvannas that Lor'themar decides it will be alright...though he is wary of her in undead form.

You can't say "Garithos is human, therefore human bad" when Lordaeron, Dalaran, Arathi, Alterac, Stormwind, and Gil'neas are all different nations with different cultures and prejudices. Garithos was a human from Lordaeron and represented what a portion of the people from Lordaeron believed. This cannot then be taken and applied to the other human kingdoms. If Lor'themar had realistic reservations that Stormwind was racist, he would have ongoing reservations about Blood Elves working with members of the Forsaken that weren't Sylvanas, which he didn't.

[sighy]

I don't see that as "bullshit writing", that's good faction writing. The zones should show you things you didn't see or notice due to being from a different perspective. I still remember the Barrens questline where it has you assassinate an Alliance captain that you only find out in the Alliance version was a good natured man who was the one who gave the order to leave a gap for civilians to escape at Taurajo and who orders you to arrest the looters who lingered in the area. (meanwhile on the Horde side, you just see looters and are told to kill those darn alliance dogs!)

There comes a point, when the two perspectives diverge so hard the story barely makes sense. The Cata Barrens story about the Horde pushing back the Northwatch is one of the best examples of this, where they pick key things and then explore the different perspectives of the same thing. Using your Taurajo example both sides of it address the same thing, from opposing perspectives, while many of the BfA beats were borderline irreconcilable. That's when it becomes bad.

[Joyreym]

The Horde has been evil ever since Thrall stepped down as Warchief. Since then it's just been attempts at some heinous crime that is never redeemed and then they're like ''Hu dur mu honor'' ''uh dur I wasn't part of it'' ''uh dur let's blame Warchief'' And their attitudes are without consequences. Same thing with Sylvanas' ending.
And this becomes poor because it is a catharsis denied to the community. So on balance it looks like the horde is really evil.

[vilememory]

lmao orcs are literally extraterrestrial invaders

get out of here

I kind of doubt any race is even the native races to Azeroth, everything seems to be the mutated remnants of Titan creations. Titans who showed up and started making new races, subjugating the races already there. Even if they were Old Gods and Elementals, the Elementals were subjugated by the Old Gods. I'm not sure but I think the trolls are like the major native race, and the trolls who evolved into elves from the Well of Eternity. But Hell, the way things are going all sentient life is probably the failed science project of the Titans with Blizz's writing.

[wushootaki]

Except I almost exclusively play Horde nowadays and was aware of what was happening.

There's not a single quest telling anyone not to target civilians, and the scouting parties that were assassinating people were an advanced squad. Horde players even participate in the killing of guards of Astranaar prior to the Horde advancing there. Moreover, we even know that these scouting parties were not just groups of Forsaken, as the novella A Good War even details several groups of rogues from various races (albeit, the main named one was Lorash). That a single Alliance quest only used Forsaken rogues is irrelevant when we know the rogues who were poisoning outposts were not just Forsaken.



The Horde player does not matter. What matters is that the faction leaders put resources towards a war and did nothing to mitigate the resulting war crimes. Again, the faction leaders do not get to turn around and wash their hands of this because it went off the rails.



The San'layn were introduced to the Horde as part of the Alliance War Campaign in a quest which was disconnected from the War of Thorns. There's not even any mention of San'layn in A Good War.



This is the full, unedited, quote she uses to make Saurfang question the Alliance:

- Genn is known to have acted against Anduin's orders.

Not by anyone on the Horde

- The remnants of Lordaeron living within Alliance territory are so minor a faction that they do not even get mention most of the time, and even then were fully willing to reunite with their Forsaken family and friends in Arathi.

As were the forsaken, this is a Sylvannas issue --- which again is untied to any players, and again not shown in game anywhere

- Darnassus and Silvermoon have never had tensions such that a war would break out (the opposite is even shown in Tyrande and Kael'thas interactions in Warcraft 3), with the only major cause of tension between them being due to the faction conflict of Alliance and Horde.

Sentinels legit spying on Blood Elves in the Ghostlands - an additional reason pushing them to the Horde

- The Darkspear tribe was driven out by Kul'tirans, who were unassociated with the current Alliance.

Guilt by association, same as every Horde player who sided with Vol'jin against Garrosh. You fly the Kul'Tiran flag, you are alliance. Yes, even before getting actual Kul Tiras, because they are still alliance in WC3.

- The internment camps were run by Lordaeron and Alterac, who were both unassociated with the current Alliance.

They were imposed by the Alliance of Lordaeron, which included the 7 human nations, dwarfs, and elves. The Elves, Gilneas, and Stromgarde left. The rest stayed and according to all resources I can find, helped fund them.

The parts that are relevant are known to be fringe, radical elements that do not represent the Alliance as a whole, and the rest is literally lying the blame of everything humans have ever done at the feet of Stormwind. It's literally the equivalent of saying "The Gurubashi have attacked Alliance forces in the past, the Darkspear should be dealt with."

But this is exactly how the original game was set up. The alliance questing in vanilla is blatantly racist in its focus on monstrous races, not bothering to distinguish what was Horde and what wasn't. You don't actually fight an orc/troll/tauren that is associated with the Horde until Arathi Highlands (level 30s). But you do fight random trolls and orc tribes, that are unaffiliated with the horde. Most players don't bother to notice. Meanwhile, the Horde has invaders from alliance factions in every starting zone (Forsaken withstanding as this argument can only be made for Orcs, Trolls, Tauren).

You can't say "Garithos is human, therefore human bad" when Lordaeron, Dalaran, Arathi, Alterac, Stormwind, and Gil'neas are all different nations with different cultures and prejudices. Garithos was a human from Lordaeron and represented what a portion of the people from Lordaeron believed. This cannot then be taken and applied to the other human kingdoms. If Lor'themar had realistic reservations that Stormwind was racist, he would have ongoing reservations about Blood Elves working with members of the Forsaken that weren't Sylvanas, which he didn't.

You can say this though, because they were all part of the Alliance of Lordaeron. Doesn't make it true, but you can definitely generalize like this from the Horde perspetcive. Also, Lor'themar was second in command just under Sylvannas. Any reservations he would have would be set aside, because he was joining up with his former leader and trusted her judgement regardless of any personal concerns.

[Magical Mudcrab]

Not by anyone on the Horde

Yes, they do know. Read A Good War, Saurfang even explicitly states that Genn was not following Anduin's orders.

As were the forsaken, this is a Sylvannas issue --- which again is untied to any players, and again not shown in game anywhere

It doesn't matter when the Forsaken then proceed to march on Teldrassil and massacre Alliance civilians. That's the difference.

Sentinels legit spying on Blood Elves in the Ghostlands - an additional reason pushing them to the Horde

There's a difference between observation of a member of a hostile power and full-blown aggression. Even then, this doesn't speak to some deep-seated racial hatred which Sylvanas was implying, especially given that Kael'thas and Tyrande are cordial and polite during their meeting in Warcraft 3, and there really hasn't been any large-scale aggression between each other since.

Guilt by association, same as every Horde player who sided with Vol'jin against Garrosh. You fly the Kul'Tiran flag, you are alliance. Yes, even before getting actual Kul Tiras, because they are still alliance in WC3.

There's a difference between the Alliance being cautious with the Horde when it was directly sponsoring Garrosh's actions until he began an internal purge, and Kul'tiras who was not associated with the current Alliance at that time. The Alliance of Lordaeron and the Grand Alliance are not the same thing, and comparing them is equivalent to saying the Thrall's Horde is the same as the Orcish Horde from Warcraft 2.

They were imposed by the Alliance of Lordaeron, which included the 7 human nations, dwarfs, and elves. The Elves, Gilneas, and Stromgarde left. The rest stayed and according to all resources I can find, helped fund them.

So what you're saying is that it's reasonable to hold the humans, dwarves, and gnomes accountable for the actions of an alliance which no longer exists, when the few leaders who accepted the action are no longer in power (typically dead), are not associated with the internment camps whatsoever, and have a history of acting in a manner contrary to what would lead down a similar path (Varian allowing the Horde to persist after they dropped multiple WMDs and constantly increased aggression), just because they happen to be called the Alliance and have Stormwind, Dalaran, Ironforge, and Gnomeregan as member states. I can't be the only one who sees how flawed this is.

But this is exactly how the original game was set up. The alliance questing in vanilla is blatantly racist in its focus on monstrous races, not bothering to distinguish what was Horde and what wasn't. You don't actually fight an orc/troll/tauren that is associated with the Horde until Arathi Highlands (level 30s). But you do fight random trolls and orc tribes, that are unaffiliated with the horde. Most players don't bother to notice. Meanwhile, the Horde has invaders from alliance factions in every starting zone (Forsaken withstanding as this argument can only be made for Orcs, Trolls, Tauren).

What are you talking about?
- Durotar has Kul'tiran marines which aren't associated with the Alliance, they're an independent faction until Battle for Azeroth.
- Tristfal Glades has humans, but they are Scarlet Crusade and are formerly citizens of Lordaeron.
- Mulgore has no Alliance in it whatsoever.

The only actual instances of Alliance majorly intruding on Horde land in Classic are Bael Modan and Alterac, which are contrasted against the Horde invasion of Ashenvale and Arathi. Moreover, no one sees the Blackrock orcs in Redridge and things "Goddamn Horde invading our lands," instead they're more concerned with the fact that there are Blackrock orcs there; there's no line drawn between these separate factions to the Horde. This whole "the Alliance is racist during Vanilla" falls apart a bit, especially considering the condescending attitudes between the Alliance and Horde throughout is typically mutual.

You can say this though, because they were all part of the Alliance of Lordaeron. Doesn't make it true, but you can definitely generalize like this from the Horde perspetcive. Also, Lor'themar was second in command just under Sylvannas. Any reservations he would have would be set aside, because he was joining up with his former leader and trusted her judgement regardless of any personal concerns.

No, you can't. You cannot say "a human is a human" anymore than "a troll is a troll" or "an orc is an orc". This line of logic you are following would be like the Alliance killing Darkspear and saying "that's what you get, Gurubashi" or killing an orc and saying "that's what you get, Blackrock". The generalization does not work, and it especially does not work for someone like Lor'themar who is likely hundreds of years old and should be competent enough to know better.

[wushootaki]

What are you talking about?
- Durotar has Kul'tiran marines which aren't associated with the Alliance, they're an independent faction until Battle for Azeroth.
- Tristfal Glades has humans, but they are Scarlet Crusade and are formerly citizens of Lordaeron.
- Mulgore has no Alliance in it whatsoever.

The only actual instances of Alliance majorly intruding on Horde land in Classic are Bael Modan and Alterac, which are contrasted against the Horde invasion of Ashenvale and Arathi. Moreover, no one sees the Blackrock orcs in Redridge and things "Goddamn Horde invading our lands," instead they're more concerned with the fact that there are Blackrock orcs there; there's no line drawn between these separate factions to the Horde. This whole "the Alliance is racist during Vanilla" falls apart a bit, especially considering the condescending attitudes between the Alliance and Horde throughout is typically mutual.

Dwarves aredisturbing the earth elementals in Mulgore, digging up burial grounds to find artifacts (https://classic.wowhead.com/quest=746/dwarven-digging). The Kul Tiran Marines located in Durotar in classic are green and friendly to the Alliance Players, indicating that despite Kul Tiras not being in game, they are part of Jaina's Kul Tiran Theramore contigent as quest text mentions and thus are part of the Alliance (https://classic.wowhead.com/quest=78...-the-betrayers). Contrast this with the Dragonmaw Clan, who is hostile to both alliance and horde players in Wetlands. There are also the Theramore Soldiers in the Barrens at Northwatch Hold (https://classic-wow-archive.fandom.c...orthwatch_Hold).

No, you can't. You cannot say "a human is a human" anymore than "a troll is a troll" or "an orc is an orc". This line of logic you are following would be like the Alliance killing Darkspear and saying "that's what you get, Gurubashi" or killing an orc and saying "that's what you get, Blackrock". The generalization does not work, and it especially does not work for someone like Lor'themar who is likely hundreds of years old and should be competent enough to know better.

But you can say this because things like Varian having to teach Tyrande what an ambush is, despite Tyrande being the leader of a people who's primary military tactic is guerilla warefare exists. Blizzard will say whatever they want to to make what they want to happen. It's been stated several times that Metzen wrote his lore via rule of cool, and Danuser was a part of that prior to taking over. They come up with a cool idea they want to happen, and then readjust/rewrite the lore to fit those moments.

- - - Updated - - -

The Alliance of Lordaeron and the Grand Alliance are not the same thing, and comparing them is equivalent to saying the Thrall's Horde is the same as the Orcish Horde from Warcraft 2.

https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Alliance_of_Lordaeron

"The Alliance of Lordaeron (aka Lordaeron Alliance,[1] Great Alliance,[2] Grand Alliance,[3] Human Alliance,[4] or Alliance[5]) was the union of the seven human kingdoms, along with the dwarves of Khaz Modan (which also included the gnomes of Gnomeregan) and Aerie Peak, the high elves of Quel'Thalas, and others with major political influence including the Church of the Holy Light. This coalition formed as a response to the threat of the Orcish Horde during the Second War."

Even if you look at the WoW lore for it's Alliance it states that its an evolution, and when Lordaeron fell the alliance didn't disband...it just moved its new HQ to Stormwind. (https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/All...e_of_Lordaeron)

You can argue Dalaran and Kul Tiran weren't in it, but again there is proof that during the time of classic: Kul Tiran and Dalaran npcs (Silverpine and Hillsbrad) were friendly to Alliance players but not to Horde, indicating they were still considered Alliance by the devs at this time. The gnomes were said to have always been helping the alliance, just unable to physically be there, which checks out given gyrocopter appearances in the earlier RTS games.

[Magical Mudcrab]

Dwarves aredisturbing the earth elementals in Mulgore, digging up burial grounds to find artifacts (https://classic.wowhead.com/quest=746/dwarven-digging).

Fair enough.

The Kul Tiran Marines located in Durotar in classic are green and friendly to the Alliance Players, indicating that despite Kul Tiras not being in game, they are part of Jaina's Kul Tiran Theramore contigent as quest text mentions and thus are part of the Alliance (https://classic.wowhead.com/quest=78...-the-betrayers).

This isn't even true. We know that the Kul'tiran marines in Durotar were there at the behest of her father; they were part of the second expedition. There's even an associated item that explicitly states this. These Kul'tirans being friendly towards Alliance does not mean they're part of the Alliance, similar to how the Stonemaul ogres are friendly with the Horde but not members of it. You cannot hold the Alliance to the actions of groups that aren't members of it.

Contrast this with the Dragonmaw Clan, who is hostile to both alliance and horde players in Wetlands. There are also the Theramore Soldiers in the Barrens at Northwatch Hold (https://classic-wow-archive.fandom.c...orthwatch_Hold).

The contrast doesn't matter because showing a list of NPC aggro tables is irrelevant and doesn't represent anything meaningful in the lore. Northwatch Hold was not attacked by the Horde in Vanilla, with the only canonical attack before Cataclysm being ended by Thrall who publicly executed the Horde commander who ordered the assault as a traitor. It was built as a refuge for humans after Hyjal, and the Horde weren't actively aggressive to it because of that and its relation to Theramore, which was almost considered as being neutral because of Jaina's relation to Thrall. Theramore was even used as a neutral ground for Horde and Alliance leaders to meet in the comics. Even the Theramore Deserters, who hated Jaina and thought Daelin was right, are friendly to the Alliance, and they're neither Alliance nor citizens of Theramore.

But you can say this because things like Varian having to teach Tyrande what an ambush is, despite Tyrande being the leader of a people who's primary military tactic is guerilla warefare exists. Blizzard will say whatever they want to to make what they want to happen. It's been stated several times that Metzen wrote his lore via rule of cool, and Danuser was a part of that prior to taking over. They come up with a cool idea they want to happen, and then readjust/rewrite the lore to fit those moments.

Ok, well then why are we discussing anything? If the result is going to come down to "well, the authors can do whatever they want", there's nothing to discuss. Character motivations, logical thinking, anything and everything is out the window because it boils down to the authors being able to do what they want.

[Ardenaso]

You can say this though, because they were all part of the Alliance of Lordaeron. Doesn't make it true, but you can definitely generalize like this from the Horde perspetcive. Also, Lor'themar was second in command just under Sylvannas. Any reservations he would have would be set aside, because he was joining up with his former leader and trusted her judgement regardless of any personal concerns.

the Argent Crusade are direct descendants of Garithos' New Alliance Remnants and the Blood Elves don't have any beef with them whatsoever