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  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by Woggmer View Post
    So, I'm not entirely sure of this since this is one of the plot points in BfA that won't get much exploration until the future...

    Though a lot of people seem to forget about this event that happened in Dazar'alor. We were pre-occupied with Azshara and N'zoth that we overlooked the moment in Battle for Dazar'alor where the Alliance has killed King Rastakhan as one of the major boss fights of that raid.

    Wouldn't Talanji have some sort of vengeance against the Alliance for killing her father?

    Is that a possible plot point they might explore or just no?
    technically he killed himself with bomsandis power so no one killed him
    I.O BFA Season 3


  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Naw he has become the armcandy of Thalyssra, so he is semi safe. They might warm up the Rommath coup idea though, forcing bob to flee at one point , can't have a human hater around.
    True on the first one, but that'd require them to remember Rommath exists and what his personality is.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

    Tinkers will be the next Class confirmed.

  3. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    True on the first one, but that'd require them to remember Rommath exists and what his personality is.
    They just used him recently in scourge invasion event, so who knows.

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    They just used him recently in scourge invasion event, so who knows.
    As I read that Salandria'd be in it, I was sure she was being built up to be a baddie in Explosion of Dragons in light of the comments in the Orphan's Week questline, but her valley girl VA makes me doubt it. Still a chance she just screws up royally and that's why those drakonids want to kill her.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

    Tinkers will be the next Class confirmed.

  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    As I read that Salandria'd be in it, I was sure she was being built up to be a baddie in Explosion of Dragons in light of the comments in the Orphan's Week questline, but her valley girl VA makes me doubt it. Still a chance she just screws up royally and that's why those drakonids want to kill her.
    Yeah, she is a goody paladin, trying to prove herself. So overreaching and as such screwing up is a very likely scenario, wouldn't surprise me if it happens in the pre event and she is pretty much trying to atone for it for a decent chunk of the next xpack

  6. #86
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Accendor View Post
    What's in the books is not relevant to the game, it usually gets completely ignored afterwards.
    Completely and utterly wrong.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Depends on the book, really. Some of the novels are interstitial stories that directly relate to upcoming expansions, and as such as very relevant to associated stories. Examples include The Shattering, where Garrosh becomes Warchief and Cairne is murdered, and War Crimes where Garrosh escapes his trial and sets up the plot of WoD. Without those novels, there would be zero context for major plot points that happen in Cata and WoD.
    Rule of thumb generally is key broad strokes of the stories are relevant, while the rest is the book fluff more often than not.

  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Depends on the book, really. Some of the novels are interstitial stories that directly relate to upcoming expansions, and as such as very relevant to associated stories. Examples include The Shattering, where Garrosh becomes Warchief and Cairne is murdered, and War Crimes where Garrosh escapes his trial and sets up the plot of WoD. Without those novels, there would be zero context for major plot points that happen in Cata and WoD.
    Ah, yes, I remember war crimes. It was hilarious because almost nobody read that book and when WoD hit everyone was like ????
    I mean there was this short Questline in Nagrand that showed a very small path of what happened but still, most people had no clue wtf was going on.

    You are right that of course, but I would not count on it as being actually what happened, the past is very flexible to be rewritten in the last years.

  9. #89
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sighy View Post
    Rule of thumb generally is key broad strokes of the stories are relevant, while the rest is the book fluff more often than not.
    The books provide a lot of background and characterization, but I agree that in terms of the overarching plot a lot of that is fluff or irrelevant.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Accendor View Post
    Ah, yes, I remember war crimes. It was hilarious because almost nobody read that book and when WoD hit everyone was like ????
    I mean there was this short Questline in Nagrand that showed a very small path of what happened but still, most people had no clue wtf was going on.

    You are right that of course, but I would not count on it as being actually what happened, the past is very flexible to be rewritten in the last years.
    I wouldn't say the overarching plot has been "rewritten," as it were - I know that most people who follow the lore are hyper-focused on retcons, but most of WoW's retcons have to do with character motivations and overall minor details, which when mapped to the overarching plot also happen to be relatively minor. Two of WoW's most massive retcons, the Eredar/Draenei retcon and the Med'an retcon, have proved to be relatively minor in terms of the actual story as well as, at least in my view, a net positive for the story. The Eredar/Draenei retcon made both the Eredar and the Draenei more interesting in giving them a richer story, and the Med'an retcon effectively removed Med'an from future stories, and since Med'an is the worst character ever to be added to WoW that's just good on its face.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  10. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by Wonderment2 View Post
    Theramore was one of the most justified military targets in all of wows history. The fact Blizzard treated it like some unimaginable line had been crossed was nonsensical.

    It was a military port being used to supply a warzone in horde lands. It had tanks and a road straight into the heart of Horde lands. The Horde and Allaince were at war when it was destroyed.

    If Jaina wanted to sit out the war she probably shouldn't of allowed her city to become the Humans main entry point into kalmidor or allowed it's marines invaded durotar.
    Even Sylvanas Windrunner was surprised the Horde didn't kick Garrosh after "turning the population of a city into purple dust". That is the canon we have. It has now been confirmed in TWO books that it was a war crime. Get used to it.

  11. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    Even Sylvanas Windrunner was surprised the Horde didn't kick Garrosh after "turning the population of a city into purple dust". That is the canon we have. It has now been confirmed in TWO books that it was a war crime. Get used to it.
    Yes, a kangaroo court of a system neither the Horde nor the Alliance were party to with no definitions of what constitutes a violation, who's outcome was rigged confirmed it was a war crime when the actual judges knew Garrosh would get away and were just using it to test everyone else. The Sylvanas book makes even more clear that the main reasons Sylvanas was assmad about Garrosh are because he was an orc and because he didn't take her shit.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

    Tinkers will be the next Class confirmed.

  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Yes, a kangaroo court of a system neither the Horde nor the Alliance were party to with no definitions of what constitutes a violation, who's outcome was rigged confirmed it was a war crime when the actual judges knew Garrosh would get away and were just using it to test everyone else. The Sylvanas book makes even more clear that the main reasons Sylvanas was assmad about Garrosh are because he was an orc and because he didn't take her shit.
    The ultimate Kangaroo court in the afterlife decides anyway and that court decided someone like Lady Vashj was good to go, a well known slaver and butcher of innocents, with over 10.000 years worth of crimes under her belt

  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Yes, a kangaroo court of a system neither the Horde nor the Alliance were party to with no definitions of what constitutes a violation, who's outcome was rigged confirmed it was a war crime when the actual judges knew Garrosh would get away and were just using it to test everyone else. The Sylvanas book makes even more clear that the main reasons Sylvanas was assmad about Garrosh are because he was an orc and because he didn't take her shit.
    I know the Celestials were just playing a game, but: Even if those idiots did not take the court serious, the other participants DID and that shows that THEY have a clear idea of what constitutes a CRIME. They might not have the same idea all the time but in this case most of the things Garrosh has done was agreed by people to be not okay.

    Now we have the clear words of Sylvanas that the population of the city was nuked, which does remove the argument that Hordies have been bringing up about the city being basically empty. And even she, the Banshee Queen, recognizes that it was atrocity and is amazed that it doesn't make the Horde turn on Garrosh.

    You are of course correct that this has nothing to do with why Sylvanas hates him, but that is exactly why her words are likely the truth. She didn't care then, she doesn't care now. She has no reason to lie about it. She was basically an uninvolved observer that just noted how strange it is that the Horde with all it's talk about honor doesn't really mind nuking this city.

  14. #94
    Magatha and Talanji team up and give those alliance dogs what they deserve.

  15. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    While I totally agree that Blizzard bent a lot of story and lore over the barrel with the Zandalari and not in a good way, I'm also no friend of fixed patterns like the ones you allude to. To think a "race" can have unified goals or positions seems dangerously simplistic to me, and pretty poor writing - reducing every member of one race to a set of common traits that never change is pretty boring and bland in and of itself.

    The Zandalari STATE on the other hand, that you can definitely imbue with certain agendas and goals - but those can easily change, because they're a result of politics and ideology, not race. As they have in the case of Talanji's ascension and the upheaval among the loa. Was it GOOD change? That's certainly debatable, and you make some good points about poor writing choices. But I disagree that having change - of whatever kind - is a bad thing in principle, or that the Zandalari Empire of old should always behave like it has in the past and never switch their stance or direction. That's not only unrealistic, it's also ignorant in the face of a changing world.
    The prime goal of the Zandalari has always been the preservation of troll kind, taking any action that undermines that is a direct contravention of their beliefs. Letting the Horde decimate the troll tribes, or even worse asking to on your behalf is incredibly out of character. There was a way to implement them, completely gutting them to be another good two shoes faction wasn't the right choice at all. There's a very broad range of what someone can consider evil, I personally wanted them to be closer to what they were potrayed as in the majority of the written than essentially just emulating beliefs that go against their own fundamental values.


    Quote Originally Posted by Woggmer View Post
    Were the Zandalari in MoP your first actual exposure to them? Because they weren't always like that in the slightest, because those Zandalari were led by the Prophet Zul. The only reason that Jakra'zet was the standard as you call it, was because he was also in on Zul's attempt to overthrow Rastakhan. Most of the Zanchuli were in on it, and even his disciples.

    Before Cata and MoP however, there were Zandalari Trolls that were settled into Yojamba Isle and were settled there to stop Hakkar the Soulflayer from returning. They were a neutral group yet both Alliance and Horde players could gain their acceptance. Some of those NPCs on the Island later became enemy mobs who followed Zul and went to aid the Mogu and Lei Shen in the Isle of Thunder, while others returned to Zandalar and even set up their own shop there.

    I often found it odd why suddenly the Zandalari who helped us when we tried to go after Hakkar suddenly turn evil without much explanation... and it turned out that they were all led by a mad prophet who wanted to create his own empire.
    The Prophet Zul sat on the Zandalari council, he was given a fleet by Rastakhan himself to secure new lands this wasn't just a random occurance or some rogue element. The other tribes banding together and working together to ensure that troll kind wouldn't be wiped out by any means necessary was actually endorsed by the crown, I'm well aware that the Zandalari were against the Hakkari's attempt to ressurect Hakkar but so were the other tribes at the time. The bosses in that dungeon are champions that were sent to fight Hakkar but were mind controlled instead.

    I don't agree with what came in Cataclysm but Zandalari Emissaries that fought in the Throne of Thunder were all champions or highly revered in some way, if they aren't a reflection of Zandalar's attitude and culture I would think that's rather ridiculous. I'm not saying the Zandalari can't change, or have a different out look but their empire shouldn't revolve around a goodie two shoes princess with a tortallan advisor.

  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    Even Sylvanas Windrunner was surprised the Horde didn't kick Garrosh after "turning the population of a city into purple dust". That is the canon we have. It has now been confirmed in TWO books that it was a war crime. Get used to it.
    As I said.... The fact Blizzard think it's a some kind of crossed line is nonsensical.

    Also I am use to it, I just think it's stupid ...

  17. #97
    The troll empire needs to rise again.

  18. #98
    Immortal FuxieDK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woggmer View Post
    So, I'm not entirely sure of this since this is one of the plot points in BfA that won't get much exploration until the future...

    Though a lot of people seem to forget about this event that happened in Dazar'alor. We were pre-occupied with Azshara and N'zoth that we overlooked the moment in Battle for Dazar'alor where the Alliance has killed King Rastakhan as one of the major boss fights of that raid.

    Wouldn't Talanji have some sort of vengeance against the Alliance for killing her father?

    Is that a possible plot point they might explore or just no?
    Horde is NEVER allowed to get revenge or justice, that should be evident by now.

    The few times an Alliance NPC have been a boss, they always end up "defeated", never killed, yet Horde NPCs die left and right.
    Fact (because I say so): TBC > Cata > Legion > ShaLa > MoP > DF > BfA > WoD = WotLK

    My pet collection --> http://www.warcraftpets.com/collection/FuxieDK/

  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    The ultimate Kangaroo court in the afterlife decides anyway and that court decided someone like Lady Vashj was good to go, a well known slaver and butcher of innocents, with over 10.000 years worth of crimes under her belt
    The Bald Man was right about the death distribution system.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    You are of course correct that this has nothing to do with why Sylvanas hates him, but that is exactly why her words are likely the truth. She didn't care then, she doesn't care now. She has no reason to lie about it. She was basically an uninvolved observer that just noted how strange it is that the Horde with all it's talk about honor doesn't really mind nuking this city.
    She does care because she's perpetually assmad about orcs. To Sylvanas the fact that Theramore was the staging ground for attacks on the Barrens predating Garrosh's tenure don't matter one iota and its destruction matters chiefly in so far as Alliance reprisal would target her once human positions in Kalimdor are knocked out. To her, he's an upstart that unlike Thrall got into her personal realm of interest and had demands for the Forsaken beyond just being an influence for the Horde in the Eastern Kingdoms. His prioritizing of the orcish interest meant more negative focus on her and having her forces take the brunt of the damage for Gilneas soured her further. It's a fun dynamic, but it hardly speaks to her moral character or to her as an objective observer we should take seriously in her moral assessment.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

    Tinkers will be the next Class confirmed.

  20. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by Gnomette View Post
    The Prophet Zul sat on the Zandalari council, he was given a fleet by Rastakhan himself to secure new lands this wasn't just a random occurance or some rogue element. The other tribes banding together and working together to ensure that troll kind wouldn't be wiped out by any means necessary was actually endorsed by the crown, I'm well aware that the Zandalari were against the Hakkari's attempt to ressurect Hakkar but so were the other tribes at the time. The bosses in that dungeon are champions that were sent to fight Hakkar but were mind controlled instead.

    I don't agree with what came in Cataclysm but Zandalari Emissaries that fought in the Throne of Thunder were all champions or highly revered in some way, if they aren't a reflection of Zandalar's attitude and culture I would think that's rather ridiculous. I'm not saying the Zandalari can't change, or have a different out look but their empire shouldn't revolve around a goodie two shoes princess with a tortallan advisor.
    Zul advised the council and King Rastakhan to unite with the other troll tribes and to abandon their doomed homeland. Despite Zul's infamy, the council refused to believe in the scope of the disaster to come. Many felt that Zul was grandstanding to increase his own status and power. King Rastakhan grew tired of Zul and his troubling nightmares. To be rid of the prophet, he granted Zul the use of his largest ships, so that he and his followers could seek a new land if his visions came to pass. They scoffed as he and his followers began assembling a war fleet and reaching out to the lesser troll races.
    That last bit was from a scroll back in MoP from the Isle of Thunder patch.

    Rastakhan was basically doing it just to humor Zul's wild prophetic dreams.

    When King Rastakhan ordered me to join Zul's fleet, I thought I'd done something to offend the Council. I thought he was sacrificing me and the others just to get Zul off his back and away from Zandalar. I cursed my luck: ferrying that old prophet all around the oceans, meeting with those disgusting Sandfury trolls or crazed Drakkari.
    That was weeks ago. Before I heard what happened to the capitol.
    From the Iron Bound Zandalari Journal

    I'm not a fan of Talanji either, especially since they couldn't find a concrete age for her. (Seriously, she's listed as 18 years old during the events of Shadows Rising, though that was largely due to the author's decision). The only reason they did all this grand set up was to make Zandalari a playable race for the Horde. Rastakhan wouldn't agree to it because he wants things to remain as they are so long as he remains king, while Zul is the other extreme where he wants the troll tribes to emulate what the Drakkari did and absorb their Loas for their own power.

    But at least Talanji isn't like Anduin where she's a total pacifist, if anything she's like the Genn Greymane to the Horde.

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