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  1. #221
    Quote Originally Posted by Miffinat0r View Post
    I'm pointing out that we know an exodus happened and it's pretty apparent that it was low-skill, casual players who left.

    I never ever see anyone actually explain how doubling-down on these systems will make people want to return, or garner new players.
    How will making the game something else entirely help either?

    People from my crowd at least got driven off from shitty systems that needed an absurd amount of grinding and often had elements needing emergency nerfs of 50% or more and were still op.

    I'm not convinced trying to make the game appeal to cow clicker gamers is the way to do things.

  2. #222
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    I often think of current WoW as that 50 years old dude who insists on dressing up as if he was a teenager.
    My version is basically Ion dressing like it's straight 2008 again listening to party like a rockstar and saying we don't need scrubs!

    Meanwhile more and more players choose not to play World of Warcraft because of these archaic and brutal gearing systems.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Celement View Post
    How will making the game something else entirely help either?

    People from my crowd at least got driven off from shitty systems that needed an absurd amount of grinding and often had elements needing emergency nerfs of 50% or more and were still op.

    I'm not convinced trying to make the game appeal to cow clicker gamers is the way to do things.
    Because clearly doing things the way you want has led to more players right? Even though SL was a cataclysmic failure.

  3. #223
    Quote Originally Posted by Miffinat0r View Post
    My version is basically Ion dressing like it's straight 2008 again listening to party like a rockstar and saying we don't need scrubs!

    Meanwhile more and more players choose not to play World of Warcraft because of these archaic and brutal gearing systems.
    Or, get this: WoW is no longer designed for 100% of its players to be subscribed 100% of the time and they're perfectly fine with tourist players who come in for a month or two at the beginning of patches and expansions then unsubscribe and think nothing of it. Times change, my guy. You guys insisting that WoW be a video game that has the kind of appeal that keeps people subscribed for 18 years straight are the ones stuck in the Stone Ages.

  4. #224
    Quote Originally Posted by Miffinat0r View Post
    I'm pointing out that we know an exodus happened and it's pretty apparent that it was low-skill, casual players who left.

    I never ever see anyone actually explain how doubling-down on these systems will make people want to return, or garner new players.
    the social players left. wow has solo and multiplayer elements but attacks social players at this point.
    TO FIX WOW:1. smaller server sizes & server-only LFG awarding satchels, so elite players help others. 2. "helper builds" with loom powers - talent trees so elite players cast buffs on low level players XP gain, HP/mana, regen, damage, etc. 3. "helper ilvl" scoring how much you help others. 4. observer games like in SC to watch/chat (like twitch but with MORE DETAILS & inside the wow UI) 5. guild leagues to compete with rival guilds for progression (with observer mode).6. jackpot world mobs.

  5. #225
    Quote Originally Posted by Miffinat0r View Post
    My version is basically Ion dressing like it's straight 2008 again listening to party like a rockstar and saying we don't need scrubs!

    Meanwhile more and more players choose not to play World of Warcraft because of these archaic and brutal gearing systems.

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    Because clearly doing things the way you want has led to more players right? Even though SL was a cataclysmic failure.
    I don't think making the game take a wild and unexpected direction will do anything but bleed people.

    People kind of have to accept it's a game nearing two decades...

    The more you desperately try to whore out for new players the quicker you burn through those you have.

  6. #226
    Quote Originally Posted by Celement View Post
    Because I understand cause and effect and basic human behavior. People will funnel into what is easiest first then move on later. If its group play they will do group play and single player content will mostly be ignored. If it's the reverse they will be lacking needed skills for multiplayer content and it will cause a lot of group friction.

    Any time someone only talks about how things work in a bubble is a clear warning sign they don't grasp what they are proposing.

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    Pretty much...
    Group play will always have the upper hand because it will be way faster. Again, take D3 for example. You can play totally SSF but in a group you’ll be far more fast and efficient.

    The main issue in WoW group play is that it doesn’t work if you don’t have a fixed group of people to play with in fixed times. I would have no problem in doing M+ if they would all be “boom I’m in”, no problem if I then fail the timer. Difficulty is manageable, time isn’t.

    Many of you are assuming that people are bad players and do want loot piñatas by fishing in the capital cities. Surely there are also those players, but there are also players that DO LIKE difficult content, only they don’t have time to manage it if they have to form proper groups.

  7. #227
    Quote Originally Posted by chiddie View Post
    Group play will always have the upper hand because it will be way faster. Again, take D3 for example. You can play totally SSF but in a group you’ll be far more fast and efficient.

    The main issue in WoW group play is that it doesn’t work if you don’t have a fixed group of people to play with in fixed times. I would have no problem in doing M+ if they would all be “boom I’m in”, no problem if I then fail the timer. Difficulty is manageable, time isn’t.

    Many of you are assuming that people are bad players and do want loot piñatas by fishing in the capital cities. Surely there are also those players, but there are also players that DO LIKE difficult content, only they don’t have time to manage it if they have to form proper groups.
    You keep mentioning in multiple threads that you dislike having to form groups. I swear if you'd put like 1/10th as much effort into actually creating groups as you do complaining about having to make them you'd probably find that what you're asking for already exists.

  8. #228
    Quote Originally Posted by Celement View Post
    I don't think making the game take a wild and unexpected direction will do anything but bleed people.

    People kind of have to accept it's a game nearing two decades...

    The more you desperately try to whore out for new players the quicker you burn through those you have.
    I yet have to understand why people that only care about let’s say M+ would be burned if they ADD something else RETAINING also M+. Nothing will prevent them to continue doing M+ ignoring the addition.

    I don’t care if my favorite restaurant adds something else besides pizzas in its menu as long as I can still order pizzas.

    Fact is that if we take for example 10 players that do only M+, probably only 2-3 of them do M+ because they find them genuinely fun, the other 7-8 see them as a necessary evil to gear up and they will be totally pissed off if a viable alternative pops out. The goal has been totally transformed from having fun to get the gear.

    You know why D3 is still working even with its obvious flaws? Because the gear is only a meaning to have fun, it’s not the fun itself.

  9. #229
    Quote Originally Posted by chiddie View Post
    Group play will always have the upper hand because it will be way faster. Again, take D3 for example. You can play totally SSF but in a group you’ll be far more fast and efficient.

    The main issue in WoW group play is that it doesn’t work if you don’t have a fixed group of people to play with in fixed times. I would have no problem in doing M+ if they would all be “boom I’m in”, no problem if I then fail the timer. Difficulty is manageable, time isn’t.

    Many of you are assuming that people are bad players and do want loot piñatas by fishing in the capital cities. Surely there are also those players, but there are also players that DO LIKE difficult content, only they don’t have time to manage it if they have to form proper groups.
    I mean are there? I purely pugged past 3k io.

    I'm going to be blunt I don't believe these people exist. We have mythic plus a way to progress playing an hour at a time. You can't keep cutting it down more and more. At some point people have to come to terms with wow not being for them.

  10. #230
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    You keep mentioning in multiple threads that you dislike having to form groups. I swear if you'd put like 1/10th as much effort into actually creating groups as you do complaining about having to make them you'd probably find that what you're asking for already exists.
    As a healer I had indeed not that much trouble in joining groups until I reached the point in which “you have to have completed a 15 to be invited in a 15, no matter if you have all 14 on time” (will not add any comments to this retardness because it’s self explanatory).

    But as dps it’s totally different story. Also, it’s not that I dislike forming groups, I don’t have time to form groups. As a healer I often waited for a tank for ages and I saw countless groups without a healer and a tank waiting in the lobby forever, by the time I did 2 dungeons they were still there.

  11. #231
    Quote Originally Posted by chiddie View Post
    I yet have to understand why people that only care about let’s say M+ would be burned if they ADD something else RETAINING also M+. Nothing will prevent them to continue doing M+ ignoring the addition.

    I don’t care if my favorite restaurant adds something else besides pizzas in its menu as long as I can still order pizzas.

    Fact is that if we take for example 10 players that do only M+, probably only 2-3 of them do M+ because they find them genuinely fun, the other 7-8 see them as a necessary evil to gear up and they will be totally pissed off if a viable alternative pops out. The goal has been totally transformed from having fun to get the gear.

    You know why D3 is still working even with its obvious flaws? Because the gear is only a meaning to have fun, it’s not the fun itself.
    The problem Is that nothing is a closed system. If you overgear players they will turn low to mid keys into a nightmare...

    We see that now already with world quests giving normal raid gear. Nothing in wow is a vacuum.

  12. #232
    Quote Originally Posted by Celement View Post
    I mean are there? I purely pugged past 3k io.

    I'm going to be blunt I don't believe these people exist. We have mythic plus a way to progress playing an hour at a time. You can't keep cutting it down more and more. At some point people have to come to terms with wow not being for them.
    I can complete Dark Souls at SL1 with a broken sword as weapon but this does not mean everyone can and the game should be adjusted to be way harder than it is.

    I also have a tank friend that pugged all the way to KSM in S1. But besides him being a tank, he played in two days the amount of hours I can play in one week. When you have about one hour per day and not even all days, doing group content can be troublesome.

    Casuals in MMORPGS are often casuals because they don’t have enough time to be something more.

  13. #233
    Spam Assassin! MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mahcake View Post
    Why do they still keep around this guy? It’s baffling after several years of failures.
    It's likely that his primary job is to manage the various teams, keep up with what's going on, keep everyone on schedule, work with the producers when problems arise, hold meetings, get consensus on what they're designing, and generally do what managers everywhere do. He's probably very good at that. Once in a while on Twitter you'll see someone mention about how supportive he is. As well, of the "name" higher end managers that have been there for a while, he's of the few that came out of the recent stuff clean.

    That's a decent reason to keep him around from Blizzard's perspective. If you imagine that he manages every little detail of the expansion or spends a lot of time doing design that's likely not the case. Mostly I would think he's in meetings.

    They kept Chilton around for years after Cataclysm so failure in an expansion is not likely a criteria. Game directors are a lot more than that.

    Fun fact: When GC was pretty much the face of WoW, Chilton was game director and stayed out of the conversation. We all know how that turned out. GC was a terrible human being; Chilton was rarely if ever mentioned. WoW's so-called community is all about shooting the messenger.
    Last edited by MoanaLisa; 2022-04-20 at 05:26 PM.
    "...money's most powerful ability is to allow bad people to continue doing bad things at the expense of those who don't have it."

  14. #234
    Quote Originally Posted by chiddie View Post
    I can complete Dark Souls at SL1 with a broken sword as weapon but this does not mean everyone can and the game should be adjusted to be way harder than it is.

    I also have a tank friend that pugged all the way to KSM in S1. But besides him being a tank, he played in two days the amount of hours I can play in one week. When you have about one hour per day and not even all days, doing group content can be troublesome.

    Casuals in MMORPGS are often casuals because they don’t have enough time to be something more.
    Then do KSM over a patch. I can't even begin to comprehend your counter point... you want to play casually but you want to complete things as quickly as a hatdcore..?

    What are you trying to say?

  15. #235
    Quote Originally Posted by Celement View Post
    The problem Is that nothing is a closed system. If you overgear players they will turn low to mid keys into a nightmare...

    We see that now already with world quests giving normal raid gear. Nothing in wow is a vacuum.
    But you have rio for that, haven’t you? A 270 ilvl dps with 100 rio won’t be invited in a +7 for obvious reasons.

    Also, people not interested in M+ are not interested in M+ regardless their ilevel. They won’t try joining them even if they overgear them because, again, they just don’t care. And if they join they will just be an additional pick that you wouldn’t have else. Maybe a bad pick, maybe not, who knows, but an addition for sure.

  16. #236
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    It's likely that his primary job is to manage the various teams, keep up with what's going on, keep everyone on schedule, work with the producers when problems arise, hold meetings, get consensus on what they're designing, and generally do what managers everywhere do. He's probably very good at that. Once in a while on Twitter you'll see someone mention about how supportive he is. As well, of the "name" higher end managers that have been there for a while, he's of the few that came out of the recent stuff clean.

    That's a decent reason to keep him around from Blizzard's perspective. If you imagine that he manages every little detail of the expansion or spends a lot of time doing design that's likely not the case. Mostly I would think he's in meetings.

    They kept Chilton around for years after Cataclysm so failure in an expansion is not likely a criteria. Game directors are a lot more than that.

    Fun fact: When GC was pretty much the face of WoW, Chilton was game director and stayed out of the conversation. We all know how that turned out. GC was a terrible human being; Chilton was rarely if ever mentioned. WoW's so-called community is all about shooting the messenger.
    True though if we are talking about ion I do get the Peter principle vibe from him. He was an amazing raid designer but systems seem beyond him.

  17. #237
    Old God Soon-TM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celement View Post
    The problem Is that nothing is a closed system. If you overgear players they will turn low to mid keys into a nightmare...

    We see that now already with world quests giving normal raid gear. Nothing in wow is a vacuum.
    Stuff like r.io already helps a lot to separate the chaff from the wheat. That's actually the entire reason it became a thing during Legion, so if bad players ever make their way into your groups it's purely and exclusively your fault.
    Quote Originally Posted by trimble View Post
    WoD was the expansion that was targeted at non raiders.

  18. #238
    Spam Assassin! MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    Or, get this: WoW is no longer designed for 100% of its players to be subscribed 100% of the time and they're perfectly fine with tourist players who come in for a month or two at the beginning of patches and expansions then unsubscribe and think nothing of it. Times change, my guy. You guys insisting that WoW be a video game that has the kind of appeal that keeps people subscribed for 18 years straight are the ones stuck in the Stone Ages.
    I believe this is a fact. That sort of churn can be measured and budgeted around (which is the important point for the business case). I have no proof of this but I imagine that most of the people that play these days do not play every day, they aren't high-end M+ or mythic raiders. Blizzard knows I'm quite sure. Players like this are 100% invisible to most everyone else.

    Being quite honest, if you're off the gear treadmill, not worried at keeping up, and don't play every day, about 80% of what people complain about—gating, grinds—never really much affect you. I have believed this for some time. My main complaint with the design is that it all is a road to M+ and Raiding and when you do manage to reach the end of that road there's nothing else for you. A good design would never allow you to reach the end of that progression path.
    Last edited by MoanaLisa; 2022-04-20 at 05:34 PM.
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  19. #239
    Quote Originally Posted by Celement View Post
    Then do KSM over a patch. I can't even begin to comprehend your counter point... you want to play casually but you want to complete things as quickly as a hatdcore..?

    What are you trying to say?
    I want to play. A thing that now is really difficult if you wanna do grouped content and don’t have enough time to waste in whatever queue. Also the aggravation of M+ queues is they are not automated thus you can’t do anything else in the game while searching for a group.

    It’s not about speed. It’s about being able to do progress content itself. In D3 if you play 10 times my hours you will complete your journey 10 times faster. But I will also complete it, taking my time. In the end I could also do higher rifts than you because I reached your gear level and I am a better player, maybe.

    In WoW I won’t ever reach you because no matter how good I am, if I can’t party I’m out.

  20. #240
    Quote Originally Posted by chiddie View Post
    But you have rio for that, haven’t you? A 270 ilvl dps with 100 rio won’t be invited in a +7 for obvious reasons.

    Also, people not interested in M+ are not interested in M+ regardless their ilevel. They won’t try joining them even if they overgear them because, again, they just don’t care. And if they join they will just be an additional pick that you wouldn’t have else. Maybe a bad pick, maybe not, who knows, but an addition for sure.
    I didn't getting it nor on an alt on another server. I wont claim to be as casual but its doable.

    There are two trouble spots in mythic plus 10-14 where people over gear it but can't mechanically play it to a drastic degree. As well as 17-19 where gear pushed a lotta people through 15s.

    Players will always sim for 15s because of the reward...you will make things more miserable with you suggestion regardless of intent.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    Stuff like r.io already helps a lot to separate the chaff from the wheat. That's actually the entire reason it became a thing during Legion, so if bad players ever make their way into your groups it's purely and exclusively your fault.
    I'm not sure fucking over new players is the preferred solution. Nor is making that worse a betterment...

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by chiddie View Post
    I want to play. A thing that now is really difficult if you wanna do grouped content and don’t have enough time to waste in whatever queue. Also the aggravation of M+ queues is they are not automated thus you can’t do anything else in the game while searching for a group.

    It’s not about speed. It’s about being able to do progress content itself. In D3 if you play 10 times my hours you will complete your journey 10 times faster. But I will also complete it, taking my time. In the end I could also do higher rifts than you because I reached your gear level and I am a better player, maybe.

    In WoW I won’t ever reach you because no matter how good I am, if I can’t party I’m out.
    You come off as a person claiming they want to write a book who never puts pen to paper tbh.

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