Does anyone else feel embarrassed that the Dracthyr lore creates a huge plot hole?

[Irian]

Considering Dracthyr are only as strong as mortal heroes, I get the feeling Neltharion was trying to make something a lot grander than little dragon humanoids capable of harnessing dragonflight powers. I kind of figured Dracthyr were the prototypes and chromatic dragons were the (admittedly kind of fucked up) final product of his research.

[Aucald]

I don't think that Dracthyr can be compared to mortals, they obviously should be better. I mean, your average druid can command the power of Dream. Your average Evoker can call upon the power of the Dream and amplify it with time magic. Same thing with DH. Your AVERAGE DH will always be better than your AVERAGE hunter. Maybe the difference isn't that big when it comes to the heroes of Azeroth, but still. I mean, they're called the hero class for a reason.

"Should be better" neither implies nor requires that they are, and gameplay, as well as lore conventions as concerns playable races/classes, disagrees with your assertions. The dracthyr also aren't shown to be able to combine multiple aspects of draconic power, either; they can wield multiple potential powers, but can only use one at a time for a given effect. "Hero class" in Wow doesn't mean that a given class is objectively better than any other, either - it simply means that an individual in said class is going to be a seasoned veteran (or a "hero") and not some level 1 neophyte just starting out their career of adventuring. There are no amateur playable Death Knights or Demon Hunters in lore, for instance, they're all experienced in their respective roles, represented by their higher starting levels.

[darkoms]

"Should be better" neither implies nor requires that they are, and gameplay, as well as lore conventions as concerns playable races/classes, disagrees with your assertions. The dracthyr also aren't shown to be able to combine multiple aspects of draconic power, either; they can wield multiple potential powers, but can only use one at a time for a given effect. "Hero class" in Wow doesn't mean that a given class is objectively better than any other, either - it simply means that an individual in said class is going to be a seasoned veteran (or a "hero") and not some level 1 neophyte just starting out their career of adventuring. There are no amateur playable Death Knights or Demon Hunters in lore, for instance, they're all experienced in their respective roles, represented by their higher starting levels.

Gameplay doesn't mean much in this regard, it's just for the sake of balance.


So? Does this somehow contradict what I said? Even Chromatus couldn't use all 5 powers at once, each head was responsible for its own magic. Being able to use all 5 powers is a huge achievement in itself. Ysera and Nozdormu once joined forces and put the vrykuls into eternal sleep. You don't need to combine them into superfood magic for this to be powerful. Only the Aspects are capable of this, and when they do, it looks like a stream of purest white flame (maybe it's pure arcane, considering they got their power from the Titans).


Literally what I said. Your average DH is stronger than your average hunter, but when it comes to the heroes of Azeroth, the difference may be less significant.

[Hctaz]

And does this mean that the dragons are NOT going to become extinct, and are getting new Aspects?

I think they've been trying to find ways to write themselves out of this mess since the ending of Cataclysm. Ysera is still a wild god for example.

I think they wanted to have an impactful ending to Cataclysm, but the ending literally never made sense.

The Aspects were created and given power in order to stop the Hour of Twilight by magically foreseeing Titan gods, yet the Titan gods who created the Aspects to stop the Hour of Twilight didn't see that literally one of the aspects would become the herald of said Hour of Twilight? Also N'zoth was still around at this point, so it's not even like their mission was over.

I suspect the original story was going to conclude with N'zoth coming out of the Maelstrom, and they decided to reskin him and adjust it so that Deathwing himself popped back up for some reason. It would have made a lot more sense if the Aspects lost their powers after N'zoth was defeated.

[Aleksej89]

afaik chromatic was literally pieced from the other flights, pieces and some magical dna manipulation.

also chromatic were real dragons/dragonkin while drac are a humanoid hybrid with far more limitations than a dragon.

[Aucald]

Gameplay doesn't mean much in this regard, it's just for the sake of balance.

So? Does this somehow contradict what I said? Even Chromatus couldn't use all 5 powers at once, each head was responsible for its own magic. Being able to use all 5 powers is a huge achievement in itself. Ysera and Nozdormu once joined forces and put the vrykuls into eternal sleep. You don't need to combine them into superfood magic for this to be powerful. Only the Aspects are capable of this, and when they do, it looks like a stream of purest white flame (maybe it's pure arcane, considering they got their power from the Titans).

Literally what I said. Your average DH is stronger than your average hunter, but when it comes to the heroes of Azeroth, the difference may be less significant.

Lore in WoW has been and likely will always be the hostage of gameplay concerns and systems. They are inextricably bound.

Chromatus was a single entity - it doesn't matter if the powers used were the product of one of its 5 heads, it was still able to mix and match those powers to devastating effect such that it alone was the equal of 4 Dragon Aspects, at least until they got their own mojo in order with Thrall's help.

Your class vs. class assertion is also neither here nor there since we know the dracthyr don't wield power anywhere close to dragon level, much less Aspect power. Even if your general dracthyr is slightly more powerful than your general Mage (which I maintain is a big "if"), it's still not a retcon or material change to existing lore. They're just another race of proto-draconic grunts made by Neltharion, and their power is even less that of the Chromatic drakes.

[RoKPaNda]

My understanding is that these are the rejects lol.

I'm not really sure what people expect from Blizzard anymore when it comes to story/writing/lore. It's awful. It's been awful for years and it's not going to suddenly get better. Look at how they ended their grand "20 year arc" with Shadowlands. It's bad. Every expansion in recent years they have retconned both major and minor events just because they thin x looks cool or y would sound better. It's sad to say but if you're playing the game for the story anymore, you're just in it for disappointment.

It's so much worse than that. It's not some sudden massive decline, Blizzard stories have been pretty bad since the 90s at least. If you go back and play through WarCraft 3's story for example it was nonsensical and pretty terrible.

[Funkyjunky]

I wonder on which part of the globe will be the isles located, since on the other side there is still ocean and it’s unoccupied.

Seems to be the same place we know from 20+ year old concept art. No big surprises there.

[darkoms]

Lore in WoW has been and likely will always be the hostage of gameplay concerns and systems. They are inextricably bound.

Chromatus was a single entity - it doesn't matter if the powers used were the product of one of its 5 heads, it was still able to mix and match those powers to devastating effect such that it alone was the equal of 4 Dragon Aspects, at least until they got their own mojo in order with Thrall's help.

Your class vs. class assertion is also neither here nor there since we know the dracthyr don't wield power anywhere close to dragon level, much less Aspect power. Even if your general dracthyr is slightly more powerful than your general Mage (which I maintain is a big "if"), it's still not a retcon or material change to existing lore. They're just another race of proto-draconic grunts made by Neltharion, and their power is even less that of the Chromatic drakes.

And yet you will hardly argue with the fact that in lore a powerful warlock is clearly more dangerous, more powerful and more useful than a powerful warrior.


When did he mix them? I mean just mixing and not using different types of magic in turn, because the Dracthyrs do the same thing? By the way, it always seemed to me that he is so extremely powerful, not only because he is a chromatic dragon, but also because an unreal amount of arcane magic was poured into him.


And we know this because... Seriously, even in BC there was a quest where you had to kill the black dragon. You did not kill him in a raid or dungeon, just in the open world on a quest. Some dragons are stronger than others, but I really don't think the POWERFUL HEROES OF AZEROTH would have a problem killing an adult dragon (even before they lost their powers) in the current expansion, given that heroes have already killed pit lords and eredars 1x1 (although I I think that the dragons are stronger, but the heroes are also stronger now).

God, I never said they had the power of the Aspect, why do people keep saying that? Nobody in the world has Aspect level power, they were the most powerful beings on Azeroth apart from the Old Gods. We don't really know where Dracthyrs are in terms of power level. As I said, Chromatus was strong not only because he was chromatic, but also because he was infused with a huge amount of arcane magic to revive him.

[Nemah]

Oh I waited, and what I got is "conclusion to the 20 year old story arc".

but wait...for whaaaaaaaat issss tooo commmeee.

[LuxTheGamer]

Who cares, why are retcons so bad to y'all? It's small right?

[Aresk]

There's a bigger plot hole here. If these Dracthyr were created before the Sundering, before Neltharion went mad with Old God corruption, why are they choosing to turn into humans and blood elves? Shouldn't they be turning into a race that existed back then, like night elves and trolls? Maybe Mogu and Pandaren? Seriously, it's a weird choice lore-wise.

They aren't? They are quite clearly physically distinct from humans and blood elves. It's unclear where the visage form stems from (and I'm curious if we'll find out more about that), but it could as easily just be trying to look like the watcher attendants that protected the island.

I think they've been trying to find ways to write themselves out of this mess since the ending of Cataclysm. Ysera is still a wild god for example.

Ysera is not a wild god. Wild gods are reborn into their worlds. Ysera is stuck in Ardenweald, never to return per the Winter Queen.

[Eosia]

If it contradicts the original lore it is automatically a retcon regardless of the "reasons" (read: excuses) given.

Additional history does NOT equate to a "retcon". This is just additional backstory. There's no continuity problem since we really only know Neltharians past through major events like the stuff with Galakrond and his fall to madness shortly before/during the War of the Ancients and the First Cataclysm. We're talking about a section of Ancient Kalimdor that has been inviolate since the First Cataclysm. Even the Dragon Aspects, whose ancestral home this region, didn't know what was going on there until "StoneBro" ascended that tower and activated the Titan beacon that called them there.

Even the potential re-empowering of the Aspects would not be a "retcon" of the Cataclysm ending since they Titan stuff littered about the place could do it probably, although not as perfect as the Titans themselves.

To use a more modern example of this, look at Severus Snape. Look at all the information we're presented with in the first six books, especially his killing of Dumbeldore. We're seeing this basically from Harry's perspective. Blizzard borrowed this concept with Illidan who was a colossal jackhole after Tyrande released him, but in the end we learn he was actually fighting the Legion using means that made him appear villainous to us. Like we find out he and his Illidari were the ones who destroyed Nethreza and stole the Sargerite Keystone which allowed us to get to Argus and defeat the Legion.

- - - Updated - - -

There's a bigger plot hole here. If these Dracthyr were created before the Sundering, before Neltharion went mad with Old God corruption, why are they choosing to turn into humans and blood elves? Shouldn't they be turning into a race that existed back then, like night elves and trolls? Maybe Mogu and Pandaren? Seriously, it's a weird choice lore-wise.

The precedent was already set by the other aspects. Alexstraza takes the form of a High Elf as does Nozdormu. Ysera and her Daughter take the form of Night Elves. Neltharian and Kalecgos take the form of humans. None of them were around when the Keepers empowered them. And certainly Gnomes, Goblins, and Tauren were not around in the case of Chromie, Rheastraza, and Ebonhorn. Dragons can take the form of whatever.

So, in the intro area, you probably start out not having a human or high elf shape to begin with. You just have your Draconic form and then, once you choose which faction to join, you gain the other form. Kind of like the reverse of the Worgen where you start out as a human and during the course of the intro quests you get infected by the Curse that grants the Worgen form.

[Hctaz]

Ysera is not a wild god. Wild gods are reborn into their worlds. Ysera is stuck in Ardenweald, never to return per the Winter Queen.

Wildseeds are where spirits of nature, referred to as Wild Gods, rest inside of being prepared to be reborn to the world of the living from Ardenweald.

Quest text from in game.

Much of the Queen's focus has centered on the Grove of Awakening, where rejuvenated spirits emerge from their wildseeds and return to their worlds.

Perhaps it is fitting you carry a wounded spirit with you.

<Lord Herne studies Ysera's wildseed for a moment before a slow grin spreads across his face.>

This one fights with all of her being. Even now she clings to existence.

Come stranger, let us see what fate the Queen will decree for this one.


Ysera is definitely a wild god. She was forced to stay in Ardenweald for reasons not fully explained, but probably due to the fact that she was resurrected by the Winter Queen from her seed while still inside of Ardenweald instead of the normal process where they return to their worlds. She wouldn't be inside of a Wildseed if she wasn't a wild god destined to return to her world should the normal process transpire.

[Eldar45]

1. Deathwing was trying to create Chromatic Dragons. Dracthyr are not dragons, they are dragonkin.
2. Deathwing apparently used the Dragon Soul to create the Dracthyr, and he lost that after the Sundering.

[Iheartnathanos]

What Aucald said - but also, we don’t know if the Drakthyr will get their aspect powers during the starter experience.

- - - Updated - - -

What Aucald said - but also, we don’t know if the Drakthyr will get their aspect powers during the starter experience.

I’ve been just as appalled with Shadowlands but this seems like you are looking to be angry.

[Molvonos]

1. Deathwing was trying to create Chromatic Dragons. Dracthyr are not dragons, they are dragonkin.
2. Deathwing apparently used the Dragon Soul to create the Dracthyr, and he lost that after the Sundering.

There's absolutely no way that 2 is true, since he created the Dracthyr before he went insane, and the Dragon/Demon Soul happened well after his insanity, if my Warcraft lore/RTS memory is correct.

[Eldar45]

There's absolutely no way that 2 is true, since he created the Dracthyr before he went insane, and the Dragon/Demon Soul happened well after his insanity, if my Warcraft lore/RTS memory is correct.

I can't find the source anymore, so maybe I'm remembering someone else's speculation. But I am sure I saw that the Dracthyr were made using the Dragon Soul.

[Alaskandan]

There's absolutely no way that 2 is true, since he created the Dracthyr before he went insane, and the Dragon/Demon Soul happened well after his insanity, if my Warcraft lore/RTS memory is correct.

The Dragon Soul was created shortly before the War of the Ancients. It’s what he used during the War to almost instantly decimate the Blue Dragonflight. So depending on how short “shortly before” is to Blizzard, he -could- have used it to create the Dracthyr. I believe there was a scene in the Knaak books War of the Ancients detailing the creation of it, but then it disappeared for a short time.

[Molvonos]

The Dragon Soul was created shortly before the War of the Ancients. It’s what he used during the War to almost instantly decimate the Blue Dragonflight. So depending on how short “shortly before” is to Blizzard, he -could- have used it to create the Dracthyr. I believe there was a scene in the Knaak books War of the Ancients detailing the creation of it, but then it disappeared for a short time.

The only problem with this Deathwing was long corrupted before the war of the ancients, if i remember correctly, and it was the war where he first and finally betrayed the other dragonflights with his antics with the dragon/demon soul. Without knowing how much time passed between their ascension to aspects, Deathwings corruption and the war of the ancients, it's hard to say.