I suspect SL's hiatus will have the lowest subs in history and it will trigger events

[ClassicPeon]

Those were just some things i disliked and wanted to know if he'd consider those gameplay elements.

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It is when those top 5 games make up probably 90%+ of the total playerbase. Also i didn't realize that gta, cod and fifa are f2p. Also we haven't even included mobile games yet.

If 99,99% of all games are niche games the word looses all meaning and becomes useless. Back to the fact that comparatively to by far most other games, wow is a popular game still.

[Jester Joe]

Those were just some things i disliked and wanted to know if he'd consider those gameplay elements.

Most of which have irrelevant or non-existent anymore.

It is when those top 5 games make up probably 90%+ of the total playerbase. Also i didn't realize that gta, cod and fifa are f2p. Also we haven't even included mobile games yet.

Also it's just dishonest to try to even mention GTA when its been released across 3 generations of consoles now. It's easily the most milked title of all existence. And then multiplatiform titles? This isn't really an argument.

[Sugani]

Your daily reminder that Everquest just had it's 28th expansion. WoW will be fine for decades to come.

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It's hard selling a game created in 2004 to people born after 2004. It's hard seeing WoWs graphics (people's first impressions btw) be comparable to xbox-360 graphics. People were spoiled by great graphic RPGs like Skyrim over a decade ago, WoW hasn't gotten more popular since then.

The change in WoWs art direction over the years has led to a direction that is mostly timeless. Where Skyrim looks dated and old, WoW still looks fantastic. If people think WoW looks like a game from almost two decades ago, those people are clueless.



Like, this is artistically beautiful.

[ToxicFlame]

Well, you can't count "FREE to play" games because those games don't have box price tags. And you can't count console game sales when we're talking about PC sales.

the initial argument i was arguing about was saying that wow is not a niche game because PC sales. To which my counter argument was that pc sales is not a valid metric for how niche it is.

Y'know, just basic logic? That's like saying "the United States is the most populated country in America" but then you go "um, acshually, China and India have a much bigger population than the US!"

No actually, what you are saying is canada is the biggest country in the world because it's the biggest country in north america. And i am saying its not even close to the biggest because you are ignoring russia.

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Most of which have irrelevant or non-existent anymore.

whether they are relevant or not was irelevant to my question.

Also it's just dishonest to try to even mention GTA when its been released across 3 generations of consoles now. It's easily the most milked title of all existence. And then multiplatiform titles? This isn't really an argument.

its dishonest to say that wow isn't a niche game while ignoring all the games that are literally 10x + in size

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If 99,99% of all games are niche games the word looses all meaning and becomes useless. Back to the fact that comparatively to by far most other games, wow is a popular game still.

if 90% of gamers are playing 5 games then yes, the remaining X games that are played by the remaining 10% are by definition a niche

[ResentfulUK]

People like to dramatise the fall of WoW moreso than it deserves. Not doubting the direction they've taken the game has impacted it somewhat but the hard-core MMORPG just isn't as alluring as it was years ago.

They needed to make it even more casual over the years to make it easier for the "hop in and out" mentality that gamers often have these days.

WoW was never going to maintain millions of subscribers forever, it was always going to have a slow decline with peaks around expansions.

If anything I'd argue they stopped the hemorrhage by opening up the game to more types of players than if they stuck to their guns with the TBC / Wrath model.

[ClassicPeon]

if 90% of gamers are playing 5 games then yes, the remaining X games that are played by the remaining 10% are by definition a niche

Making the word niche useless in the context.

That being said your numbers are completely made up AND playing 1 game doesnt mean you cant play others.

[Mamut]

that's essentially commiting suicide. You're never going to retain 100% so not gaining any new players means at some point you're not going to be able to cover costs.

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In what world is 3.7 million a lot?

On the planet Earth in the solar system.

[Mavven]

Your first paragraph nails it. WoW can't compete with today's games and is only really popular among addicts and sunk costees.

So it's become more a niche hobby some people are clinging to for almost 2 decades. I think WoW can survive among niche hobbyist, but Blizzard should scrap any ideas of a revival, even an absolutely slapping expansion will not create more first time players, just bring old players back who don't play but still check up on forums and stuff like me.

It's hard selling a game created in 2004 to people born after 2004. It's hard seeing WoWs graphics (people's first impressions btw) be comparable to xbox-360 graphics. People were spoiled by great graphic RPGs like Skyrim over a decade ago, WoW hasn't gotten more popular since then.

Or hear me out. Different people like different things...

I think the art style is unique and holds up in it's own way. The direction allows for a timeless feel unless you go to older zones.

As for addicts and sunk costees, that is just your opinion. Most online gamers are addicts in one form or another, just different games for their drug of choice. It is silly to think most people play a game they hate because of sunk cost.

Truth be told, there is still nothing quite like WoW on the market - and it will continue to hold it's place there. Just because it isn't the MMO powerhouse it once was during Wrath, doesn't mean it still can't be a fun experience for a lot of people. Times have changed. However, ~2 million active subscribers is still upwards of $30 million a month just in sub revenue (tokens aren't that impactful), not to mention all the store purchases and account transfers/class changes, etc.

WoW is by far Blizzard's #1 revenue generator and that isn't changing anytime soon. By the time Dragonflight comes out, Shadowlands alone will have netted them almost $1 billion in revenue, which doesn't even include store revenue. That is just base game and sub sales alone.

So yeah, your take is definitely a hot one for sure.

[Jester Joe]

whether they are relevant or not was irelevant to my question.

Ah yes, so let me just start dragging out my gripes from WoD as an example of why WoW is currently bland.

It makes no sense to drag up things that aren't relevant as examples of "gameplay" to try to argue someone else.

The Maw hasn't been relevant for a while outside of the assaults which were pretty irrelevant anyway, for example.

its dishonest to say that wow isn't a niche game while ignoring all the games that are literally 10x + in size

So all movies are niche because they don't sell as well as the Avengers or Avatar?

That's dishonest.

[Xerberous]

what an unusual sight, business that have goal of making money...
it ALWAYS have been the intention of blizzard and EVERY other gaming (or any different tbh) company... like did you just now realise blizzard is not charity?

There's a difference between making good money while maintaining satisfied customers and making the worst just saleable product. Blizz 2008 was the first, Blizz 2022 is the second.

[Ielenia]

the initial argument i was arguing about was saying that wow is not a niche game because PC sales. To which my counter argument was that pc sales is not a valid metric for how niche it is.

But it isn't niche. Niche games do not break sales records.

No actually, what you are saying is canada is the biggest country in the world because it's the biggest country in north america. And i am saying its not even close to the biggest because you are ignoring russia.

Except the claim is that WoW's expansion broke sales records for PC games.

[kamuimac]

Your daily reminder that Everquest just had it's 28th expansion. WoW will be fine for decades to come.

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The change in WoWs art direction over the years has led to a direction that is mostly timeless. Where Skyrim looks dated and old, WoW still looks fantastic. If people think WoW looks like a game from almost two decades ago, those people are clueless.



Like, this is artistically beautiful.

true - but then those are moments. what has to be good in game is its core mmorpg elements . not some thrilling art moments.

[uuuhname]

I mean, if you want to ignore the major changes they are making to the parts of the game you actually spend time doing... uh, no, I'm way more excited for those things than literally anything having to do with WoW's lore.

[Iain]

Like, this is artistically beautiful.

Even Vanilla looks jaw-dropping at times, and I mean actual Vanilla, without Classic polish (which made everything so much better).

The environment design has always carried the game. Expansion after Expansion. Solid core aesthetics that havent' been compromised on, at least not by a whole lot.

And Blizzard is missing a trick here. They're letting all these beautiful zones rot away as levelling content alts are being rushed through rather than reintroduce them as fresh world quest zones.

[Laerrus]

I suspect people will still bitch no matter what the dev team does.

They could wait till Q4 2023 to release it and people will still return to play.

That might even be a good idea to delay it for ample time to deliver a AAA product and community morale. Absence makes the heart grow fonder.

[Sugani]

true - but then those are moments. what has to be good in game is its core mmorpg elements . not some thrilling art moments.

Just to remind you what I was responding to.

It's hard selling a game created in 2004 to people born after 2004. It's hard seeing WoWs graphics (people's first impressions btw) be comparable to xbox-360 graphics. People were spoiled by great graphic RPGs like Skyrim over a decade ago, WoW hasn't gotten more popular since then.

Literally no discussion about gameplay.

[Dioporco]

You say people like it ,but lost ark has already lost over half it's player base in short TWO months since it released in NA so it doesn't seem to be the 'alternative' to wow for millions of players

and wow lost like 80% of its own if I check the day 1 sales vs the normal kills 1 boss sepulc + m+ data

So we have to take into consideration people playing KR from NA and EU for various reason, one which is amazon sucking

[Stickiler]

and wow lost like 80% of its own if I check the day 1 sales vs the normal kills 1 boss sepulc + m+ data

So we have to take into consideration people playing KR from NA and EU for various reason, one which is amazon sucking

This comparison falls over because by Blizzards own admission, the majority of players don't raid or M+.

[khazmodan]

true - but then those are moments. what has to be good in game is its core mmorpg elements . not some thrilling art moments.

This is exactly right, the only gamers that put graphics as there most important factor in buying a game are the basic bro gamer that buys an occasional game they can play with there basic friends and play very occasionally, a simple game; like a shooter. Hell, Red Dead Redemption has better graphics than those and I would be more likely to buy it now and play it than WoW because it has more promise of adventure than the current WoW experience of; get a pile of quests with boring text to read and plow through kill/collect 12 mobs/pieces of mind numbing...whatever, nobody cares.

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???????????????????


means nothing fast selling if then the product is trash like cyberpunk

This is true, the money they have made up to this point is based on momentum of trust in a company that no longer exists because the real talent has left the building. When you get to end game and it is just the same recycled, borrowed power, mind numbing endless grind, and your friends in the game can't continue playing said grind, the player base collapses and trust erodes more.

[Diaphin]

WoW actually looks pretty nice on high settings. Briefly before I quit oddly enough I got a new computer that could crank everything to max, and I was honestly surprised just how great the game looks

The main problem, imo, is the character models, and not even so much the character models themselves (though this depends on race), but the armor they wear. Its just stretched textures with some 3D shoulders. This can look nice, but it can also look pretty dated.

FF looks comparatively worse when it comes to lighting, shadows, materials, etc (without Gshade of course, since thats modding). Its character models are somewhat nicer, though its gear models are far and away superior. I think part of what holds wow back in this regard is all the races are so radically different in terms of proportions. Whereas FF's are just various heights of humans, with the potatos and hrothgar being notable exceptions.

To be fair, if Blizzard wants they can do stunning things with their armor pieces, especially for a system in which armors where made to be basically just skins put on the character model. Look at the Necrolords Plate Armor, it just doesn't look anywhere worse than a typical FF14 armor. I think where they would need to do some work would be to introduce no robes models, not fully replacing the old ones but creat variety because cloth armor is where they game kept being stuck in 2004 and start to utilize those 3d pieces in questing and dungeon gear. Which I think should become easier and easier with each passing expansion in theory, considering that the assets are there and they could just mix and match them with new skins put on them.

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Getting shat worldwide by FF and Lost Ark since 2020 but ok

To be honest, if you are in there for content and not using a MMO-rpg as a second life alternative, then FF14 is just worse than WoW in terms of long term content, especially if you are a solo player. Engagement was high with streamers, but that was because the MSQ from 1 to max level itself is a timegate that can take weeks up to months to overcome, with the content being mostly fetch quests with very little in terms of combat quests outside of dungeons and trials. After you hit max level, there is very little to do though. You can grind hunts or collect fates which barely offer any attractive rewards though and outside of that, you have your beast tribe daylies, thats all. Even with the eureka-esque zones its mostly a group which requires a group to do efficently and that offers less rewards and content than a typical wow patch zone. There is barely any competetive pvp and very little competetive pve compared to WoW, with casual pve being restricted to grinding dayly roulettes. The game can be highly fun and has its own strength, but the biggest draw is undeniably the MSQ which only offers little chunks of content every few months outside of an expansion release. WoW just has more and honestly, I don't expect many WoW refugees to stick fully to FF14, it will probably end up more with them switching back and forth between FF14 and WoW.

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Facts. FF14 and GW2 are both good at what they do, but they just don't have appeal for a lot of people. Same with all the korean p2w grindfests.

I played it and I have to say, in its attempt to be unique, GW2 is just a mess of a game. The combat system is fun enough, but there is basically no clear progression path once you reach max level after getting your first exotic set. Gearing is highly convoluded and so is the pve system, because the entire system in which you operated during leveling, dungeons, is already fully abandoned in favor of whatever fractals are. There is also nothing really leading you to the raids. WoW always set you up for the current raid through its main story, while FF14 leads you through new side story quest chains into its raids. The whole Living Story system is also fully cancer, because after already paying for the expansions, you have to pay additionally to even get the full story in between the expansions, not to forget season 1 being fully removed which just creats an empty vacuum between the end of the leveling story and the beginning of the available living story, where you are fully ripped out of the narrative. I remember how bothersome it was to buy all the living story chapters caring for the story and living story season 2 just fully ripped me out of my engagement because suddenly all the characters I learned about and cared about where sidelined for a bunch of new characters I knew nothing about.