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  1. #461
    Quote Originally Posted by Azharok View Post
    I think you're overestimating how many players actually play above Normal raid difficulty. Which then begs the question of why would players require the gear if they aren't going to run content that requires the ilvl.

    Everyone wants more player power, but at some point, you're going to have to put the effort to get the gear. Which translates pretty well.

    Also as far as ilvl goes, you realise raid drops better items than M+, fury warriors are still running OWS from SoD because it's so good. Good luck getting one then, and even more luck getting one now ...
    Ya I was just listing the advantages raiding has over m+. I only m+ and im content with what I get. I think raiding requires more and Im happy they get some slight bonuses over me.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    The 5% that make it this far into Mythic. And that is a lot of work and trouble for those extra 7 ilvls. Not a Mythic Raider myself, but I doubt they feel justly rewarded for the skill, time and work they have to invest to kill Mythic bosses, especially the likes of Anduin and Halondrus, that take hundreds of wipes.



    Tell that to my Pala friend that had not a single set piece until the crafting was avaiable, despite raiding every week since the raid opened.




    Again, only if you are doing Mythic (which does not only include being skilled enough for it, but also finding 19 other people who are). I was talking about Heroic.

    I am doing M+20s pretty regularly, since three seasons, but the difficulty is nowhere as high as just in Heroic raids (mainly Halondrus, Anduin and the next), while rewarding better loot. That is just an imbalance.




    That is something I am wondering why it doesn't exist. Valour would be the perfect way to reward raiders as well as M+ runners.
    I think the bonuses mythic raiders get is appropriate. I think if u are a heroic raider, doing a 15 each week isn't too much work. 45 minutes once a week is easy

  2. #462
    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    Ya I was just listing the advantages raiding has over m+. I only m+ and im content with what I get. I think raiding requires more and Im happy they get some slight bonuses over me.

    - - - Updated - - -



    I think the bonuses mythic raiders get is appropriate. I think if u are a heroic raider, doing a 15 each week isn't too much work. 45 minutes once a week is easy
    With HC gear you can clean a 15 in like 15-20 minutes if you're good

    We cleared SD15 in 23minutes without a Venthyr in the group. Tier set > ilvl this season.
    Quote Originally Posted by Smoopie
    this change is to help players like you..... you know..night elf with tyrannical beheader...

    Azharok - Dalaran EU

  3. #463
    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    I think the bonuses mythic raiders get is appropriate. I think if u are a heroic raider, doing a 15 each week isn't too much work. 45 minutes once a week is easy
    Oh you got me wrong. I am fine with Mythic Raiders getting 278 directly, they are spending more then enough time in the raid to earn it. I also don't think it is unfair to expect people to run one m+15 a week for extra stuff (been running 10 to 8 pretty much every week).

    I just dislike the Raid rewards for Heroic/Normal in relation to M+, considering that Heroic is already far harder then an M+20. In the past the Sets were a reason to run the raids, but even that is now not a thing anymore. Removing pretty much any reason to do the much harder raid compared to doing the one M+ a week.

    It doesn't feel like there is balance. Heroic could give 278 I think and then ALL Mythic raid loot is 285 and Mythic raiding is the only place where you go that high, to reflect the commitment.

  4. #464
    Quote Originally Posted by Azharok View Post
    It kinda flew over my head
    The sad part is my sarcastic argument is definitely something that people would say

  5. #465
    Quote Originally Posted by Azharok View Post
    But it's not a solo game, and you don't need 285 mythic gear to clear solo content. EVER. I've killed plenty of ZM rares solo, so I don't know what to tell you about that.
    You don’t need it to clear it, you need it to clear it faster. I didn’t need 226 to kill stuff in the Maw one year ago, but today with 226 is just faster and less tedious since the combat system is exactly the same shiet whatever ilvl you are.

    I don’t know which ZM rares you soloed but it’s HEAVILY dependent on class/spec/ilvl, pet classes can solo almost everything if they manage to keep pets alive.

  6. #466
    Titan Sorrior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ClassicPeon View Post
    You can "gear up" by doing dailies today aswell.

    You are conflating end level gear with catch up gear mate.
    Not really given the sgeer desparity in ilv these days.

    Back then you chose what you got also literally everything rewarded points to get gear that by todays standards would likely be heroic ilv even for just doing dailies
    Last edited by Sorrior; 2022-04-23 at 04:48 AM.

  7. #467
    Quote Originally Posted by Video Games View Post
    Sub numbers = quality? I don't agree
    That's the argument they use about how allegedly terrible modern WoW is cause the numbers MUST be bad if they're not sharing them anymore, amirite?
    The most difficult thing to do is accept that there is nothing wrong with things you don't like and accept that people can like things you don't.

  8. #468
    Titan Sorrior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    This is always so wrong.

    Emblem of frost would let you buy 251 versions of t10. Thats 5 pieces. Emblem of frost wld also let u buy 264 ilvl versions of relic/thrown, cloak, belt, and then chest and gloves which shares slots with the tier. So assuming u want ur 4 pc, we are talking abt 4 264s, 4 251s.

    For comparison sake, 278 ilvl (mythic items now) is equivalent to 277 heroic 25 man back then.

    If you were a casual, and didn't raid, you'd get 2 emblems a day. Or 14 a week. Taking the average price of the 264 gear, it is 59 emblems. It would take you logging on ebery single day for 30 days to get 1 piece of 264 gear.

    Average price of tier at 251 ilvl is 81 emblems. Thats 41 days of doing the daily to get a 251 piece.

    Let's compare that to the gear u get now. Full 252 in all slots for doing ZM. A 265 for completing the campaign. A random chance at a 265 every 8 weeks from the weekly mythic quest. 2x291 legos. A 262 lego from crafting.

    How are you gonna argue that you got more geared back then?
    ...among other things you literally could plan out from day 1 what you got and when as well as being able to adjust very easily based upon drops recieved.

    And everything let you work towards it casual or not. It's not about the ilv(at least for me) but about the ability to work towards being better geared no matter what task you did.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    There literally was nothing in the announcement that related to any endgame activity. Except for the promise of getting dungeons and raids and if that surprises you then you haven't been paying attention.

    As far as "no solo content". Well, congratulation. Of course there is none, because every time Blizzard tried to implement something the so-called casuals hated it. Be it Warfronts, Islands, Torghast. Everything has been hated to death, usually before even hitting the servers. No wonder they are not sinking time and money into that anymore.

    So for once, I would really like to read a thread of a person calling themselves "casual" that actually has a realistic view of the game. But this seems to be impossible. If something isn't perfectly designed to suit your demands then it is clearly only good for 5% of the playerbase.

    Maybe solo players just are so egocentric that they do not realize this, but... pssst... you are not playing the game alone.





    Technically they are too hard, but only in relation to the gear you get. Heroic is much too hard to give 265 stuff. Plus the set crafting. There is basically no reward for raiding over M+ anymore. That has to change. At least make raids give a 278 piece in the Vault every week as well.
    Pretty sure torghadt was insanely popular in alpha/beta..Then they nerfed the crazy fun outta it.

    It's not solo content it's blizzs inability to let things just be fun

  9. #469
    Quote Originally Posted by Hibiki View Post
    I'm very disappointed with whole announcement. No single world about casual and solo players.
    Imo Ion again will focus on raiders and make ppl quit fast.
    The only focus on raiders in the past 6 years has been making it more annoying to do high end progression

    SL had a lot of issues that the 5% pointed out but they got told they were wrong and the bad changes were actually good because blizzard said so and because the 5% hated it.

    Fast forward 3 months and then you agree with the 5% and blizzard announces a good change but because the 5% likes it the change is making the sky fall and the game die but in reality it doesn’t matter to your play style.

    You can as a crafter make gold via the work order profession system and you can get mythic gear

    Dragon riding and renown rep aren’t in any way negative to solo players
    Solo rated pvp is coming

  10. #470
    I want a fleshed out world that feels alive, not a lobby raid/m+/pvp simulator.

    I want meaningful vertical progression options, rather than or supported more than, an arbitrary gear treadmill that resets every 6 months.

    I want a variety of content rather than contrived funneling into just doing what the current patches quest hub and raid is.

    I want actual pvp content and pvp to be skill > gear always.

    I want a different business model than an overpriced subscription or there to be substantially more value from it.

    I want devs that communicate well, are transparent, and work with their player base.

    I want a coherent and evolving story, rather than something that feels like it was written with a crayon and made for a Saturday morning cartoon.
    Last edited by Mojo03; 2022-04-23 at 05:21 AM.

  11. #471
    Titan Sorrior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mojo03 View Post
    I want a fleshed out world that feels alive, not a lobby raid/m+/pvp simulator.

    I want meaningful vertical progression options, rather than or supported more than, an arbitrary gear treadmill that resets every 6 months.

    I want a variety of content rather than contrived funneling into just doing what the current patches quest hub and raid is.

    I want actual pvp content and pvp to be skill > gear always.

    I want a different business model than an overpriced subscription or there to be substantially more value from it.

    I want devs that communicate well, are transparent, and work with their player base.

    I want a coherent and evolving story, rather than something that feels like it was written with a crayon and made for a Saturday morning cartoon.
    This right here and wow USED to have all of this bar maybe the last one and even then it still had a damn good story told in game.

    Though i'd add also to just be a sellsword/adventurer again

  12. #472
    Quote Originally Posted by Sorrior View Post
    Not really given the sgeer desparity in ilv these days.

    Back then you chose what you got also literally everything rewarded points to get gear that by todays standards would likely be heroic ilv even for just doing dailies
    Yes really - you gear up much faster from doing Zereth mortis then you ever did back then.

    The ilvl difference doesnt mean anything in this context. You can get 230+ ilvl literally the moment you step into zereth mortis which is an insane catchup

  13. #473
    Quote Originally Posted by Mojo03 View Post
    I want a fleshed out world that feels alive, not a lobby raid/m+/pvp simulator.

    I want meaningful vertical progression options, rather than or supported more than, an arbitrary gear treadmill that resets every 6 months.

    I want a variety of content rather than contrived funneling into just doing what the current patches quest hub and raid is.

    I want actual pvp content and pvp to be skill > gear always.

    I want a different business model than an overpriced subscription or there to be substantially more value from it.

    I want devs that communicate well, are transparent, and work with their player base.

    I want a coherent and evolving story, rather than something that feels like it was written with a crayon and made for a Saturday morning cartoon.
    no one cares what you want, you sound like you do wq/lfr all day and want to gamer to cater to your specific stupid fantasy needs

  14. #474
    Titan Sorrior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ClassicPeon View Post
    Yes really - you gear up much faster from doing Zereth mortis then you ever did back then.

    The ilvl difference doesnt mean anything in this context. You can get 230+ ilvl literally the moment you step into zereth mortis which is an insane catchup
    Heh i think you miss the point. It's not about the ilv per se to some. It's about having things to work towards sans any time gating...And being able to get gear/work for things no matter.

    I guess another way to put it is choices. Right now there are 2-3 ways to get gear including locations.

    Back then there were dailies of which you chose what ones to do, raids, pvp, dungeons(normal or hard mode both worked). Literally everything bar leveling quests helped you get better gear even if it took mire time.

    Today you have pvp, mythic dungeons, zeris mortis(one area instead of just picking whatever you wanted), mythic plus.

    Oh and tbe vault which is rng central.

    The same amount of just do whatever and you'll still get stronger/better gear just isn't there anymore.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by dragonflight10 View Post
    no one cares what you want, you sound like you do wq/lfr all day and want to gamer to cater to your specific stupid fantasy needs
    As i keep trying to point out time was doing stuff like that could net you what would by todays standards be heroic gear.

    It would take alot longer but still do it.

  15. #475
    Quote Originally Posted by Sorrior View Post
    Heh i think you miss the point. It's not about the ilv per se to some. It's about having things to work towards sans any time gating...And being able to get gear/work for things no matter.

    I guess another way to put it is choices. Right now there are 2-3 ways to get gear including locations.

    Back then there were dailies of which you chose what ones to do, raids, pvp, dungeons(normal or hard mode both worked). Literally everything bar leveling quests helped you get better gear even if it took mire time.

    Today you have pvp, mythic dungeons, zeris mortis(one area instead of just picking whatever you wanted), mythic plus.

    Oh and tbe vault which is rng central.

    The same amount of just do whatever and you'll still get stronger/better gear just isn't there anymore.

    - - - Updated - - -



    As i keep trying to point out time was doing stuff like that could net you what would by todays standards be heroic gear.

    It would take alot longer but still do it.
    You arent making a very good case here mate.

    Back then you had:
    Dungeons, pvp, raids and the extremely limited amount of items you could get from world farming.

    Today you have:
    Dungeons, pvp, Raids, world quests, Zereth Mortis questline, Zereth Mortus Treasures, World bosses and Zereth Mortis Rares. You also have crafting of epic gear and of legendaries. I'm even going to ignore the Vault beacuse its a shit system btw.

    You can get more gear from m+ then you could from the ICC dungeons, you can get WAY more gear from zereth mortis then you could from world content back then. You can make 2 legendaries completely outside the raid. I mean...

  16. #476
    Mechagnome terminaltrip421's Avatar
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    ilvl - people are acting like getting the new low-end higher ilvl means anything outside of prog-play. because of world creatures scaling up with each patch it's an absolute must because the world is overtuned and there's really no outgearing it anymore just being geared enough to more readily survive. when we used to get powerful gear we felt powerful out in the world. not really anymore.

  17. #477
    Quote Originally Posted by uuuhname View Post
    IDK dude, the fact they're not forcing another power system(s) onto us is probably the biggest W they can get from me right now.
    The dragonriding system is going to be a massive timegated power grind. It will affect player power because it locks accessing locations behind it.

  18. #478
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    Quote Originally Posted by JustaWarlock View Post
    The dragonriding system is going to be a massive timegated power grind. It will affect player power because it locks accessing locations behind it.
    Patch x.1 - x.2 . Due to unconventional weather conditions in the new patch area , the player's dragon has to learn how to fly again by working closely with the resident factions.

  19. #479
    On the 'solo-player' in an mmo. I want to kind of justify this play style (since its mine and im kind of biased). Firstly, the draw of an mmo isnt just the competitive elements, but also features like 'shared persistent world', 'avatar permanence' and 'longstanding and continual updates'. Or to put it more cynically, 'sunk cost' and 'addiction'. I like my characters. They have a kind of crypto story existing in the world for such a long period of time, and its one that actually invests me into keeping them updated. I love my shammy spacegoat from TBC. I HATE playing it in the world, mind you. I just spent the past week leveling her through the 50-60 story as resto without running a dungeon and it was ugly. But she's resto. Thats the character i fell in love with back in TBC (particularly in pvp). Switching to enhance or elemental purely for the expedience isnt even a thought in my head. She is a resto shammy, she will not change (though she now hates grouping and helping other people for some reason or other). Thats the nature of avatar permanence.

    Secondly, ive seen it mentioned either here or in another thread: Bartle's taxonomy. I'd say im more of the explorer/immersion playstyle. So if the discussion on 'solo players' is too loaded (and often descends into an argument that "its an MMO!!! go play a single player rpg!"), then perhaps we could discuss it in those terms. By which i mean, have explorers lost a little of what drew them into the game all the way back? The competitive players and killers have the game of their dreams. Well... maybe less so the killers with the introduction of war mode which really deprived them of a lot of their fun (pvp servers once upon a time had a function). But the competitive players have been fed constantly. Meanwhile the social players are stuck in a crypto instanced-lobby game, whilst explorers/immersion players are stuck in this fun house mirror of the actual (competitive) game.
    Perhaps this explains why the game currently feels pretty unsatisfying even to its hardcore playerbase (by which i mean players who've been playing the game for many many years - not the competitive hardcore).
    Last edited by ippollite; 2022-04-23 at 11:52 AM.

  20. #480
    2 hours of presentation about the new expansion, and about 10 seconds of those 2 hours were the words "there will be 8 new dungeons and a new raid".

    Response:
    "OH GREAT another raider's expansion. When will they stop catering to the 5%?"

    wtf?

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