Forget RDF, there is a bigger problem!

[Battlebeard]

Which is of course the biggest disease the game got, Achievements. And also a few other things, like Gearscore addons etc.

WotLK is the beginning of the end for the community, and an inclusive game. WotLK is when the game became elitistic for real, as we started seeing ways in game to divide the community and shift the focus from fun to an unhealthy mindset.

Sure, even Classic and TBC Classic had some issues. Warcraft Logs is the disease that plague the game right now, it sucks but at least it's done outside of the game and not everyone is using it.

With achievements, elitism is taken to a whole new level, as it's accessible in game. "LFM XXX, link XXX achievement", this nightmare happened for too many years and the hype of WotLK has made people forget about this hell. WotLK is gonna turn the game pretty much into retail. People are gonna spend hours looking for groups and then quit, this will make the game unhealthy in every way possible. It's the never ending circle. You cannot get invited without an achievement, but you cannot get the achievement without getting invited. Unless you get the achievement the FIRST week, you are pretty much screwed. Week 2 we will see "LFM Naxx, Link achievement" and if you don't, you won't get in.

Yes there are ways around it, like ways to link fake achievements, but that's not the big issue, the big issue is that WotLK Classic will change the mindset of many people, changing what I believe what Classic should be. Classic should be a nostalgia trip, never a competitive game. I think WotLK could be such a good game, but I fear it will once again be ruined, just like in 2008-2010.

What do you guys think of this? Do you see this as a problem like I do? Do you think this will kill the spirit and fun of the game? Do you also hope achievements will never be added?

And please, no "just lead your own group", this is never a solution, not everyone is leader material, and since only 1 person can be leader, it's not a reasonable demand EVERYONE is the leader to actually play.

[AwkwardSquirtle]

And please, no "just lead your own group", this is never a solution, not everyone is leader material, and since only 1 person can be leader, it's not a reasonable demand EVERYONE is the leader to actually play.

You don't have to lead every group, just the one which gets you your achievement. Then you can join everyone else's pugs.

[Battlebeard]

You don't have to lead every group, just the one which gets you your achievement. Then you can join everyone else's pugs.

I don't think anyone should ever have to lead themselves to play the game. Not everyone has the ability to lead, it takes a certain personality trait etc to lead properly, that should never be a requirement.

[Biomega]

I don't really understand this complaint.

People are asking for a proof of competency before inviting you, to try and screen against people who don't know what they're doing, hold back the group, and expect to be rewarded for it.

And somehow that is a BAD thing?

[Battlebeard]

I don't really understand this complaint.

People are asking for a proof of competency before inviting you, to try and screen against people who don't know what they're doing, hold back the group, and expect to be rewarded for it.

And somehow that is a BAD thing?

There is no need for a proof of competency, this has no positive effect, it just holds people back.

WotLK is still a very easy game, even ICC Heroic will be cleared very easily, there is no need for achievements, especially in T7 and T8 content. Litterally EVERY SINGLE raid in the entire game would clear Naxx and oneshot the bosses, however with achievements, not everyone will get a chance to even try it.

Achievements, Gearscore, Ilvl, RIO, etc is what killed this game, it divided us, and it started in WotLK.

[Kralljin]

I couldn't care less about this.

Either you follow the Meta and abide by it, or you carve your own place within the game but complaining about how other people refuse to play with you because you don't want to play by their rules is pathetic.

And please, no "just lead your own group", this is never a solution, not everyone is leader material, and since only 1 person can be leader, it's not a reasonable demand EVERYONE is the leader to actually play.

It is.
Get over your social anxiety, you don't need to a "leader" in order to make a god damn Naxx pug.

I'm by no means a "leader" and i also lead a pug in TBC on a weekly basis, because finding a pug for my Warrior Alt is next to impossible as dps Warrior slots are pretty much always taken by friends / guildmates of the pug leader.

This entire arguement of "I don't want people to able to check my performance" is something that will just lead to a ton of nightmarish pugs (completely disregarding the entitlement here), because from personal experience, whenever i dropped my standards on inviting a given person, i was disappointed by the performance of that very person.

If a leader is no longer able to verify the performance of someone, a pug (like my) that currently clears MH+BT in less than 3h, would easily go to the 4h+ mark because wiping eats up a shit ton of time.
Which is naturally not a very fun time for anyone involved except those that have very low standards.

[Battlebeard]

I couldn't care less about this.

Either you follow the Meta and abide by it, or you carve your own place within the game but complaining about how other people refuse to play with you because you don't want to play by their rules is pathetic.

It is.
Get over your social anxiety, you don't need to a "leader" in order to make a god damn Naxx pug.

I'm by no means a "leader" and i also lead a pug in TBC on a weekly basis, because finding a pug for my Warrior Alt is next to impossible as dps Warrior slots are pretty much always taken by friends / guildmates of the pug leader.

This entire arguement of "I don't want people to able to check my performance" is something that will just lead to a ton of nightmarish pugs (completely disregarding the entitlement here), because from personal experience, whenever i dropped my standards on inviting a given person, i was disappointed by the performance of that very person.

If a leader is no longer able to verify the performance of someone, a pug (like my) that currently clears MH+BT in less than 3h, would easily go to the 4h+ mark because wiping eats up a shit ton of time.
Which is naturally not a very fun time for anyone involved except those that have very low standards.

Then why are you playing this game? Classic shouldn't be focused on performance and clearing fast etc, it should be focused on community and fun. If you rather take geared "pumpers" that might be elitistic and rude, to clear MH+BT in 2,5 hours instead of taking friendly less geared players and clear in 4 hours, then I truly think this is the wrong game for you.

Speedclears, "pumper culture" etc is a cancer for this game, achievements will only make it worse. Classic is a nostalgia trip, where 90%+ has already cleared it back in the day and with todays standard it's riddicilously easy, so there is 0 need to divide us with achivs etc.

[cuafpr]

chieves and such were fine back LK - it's only recently they get so absurd and so many they drove me to the point of just not caring anymore.

[Onikaroshi]

There's no armory, just fake it.

[Biomega]

There is no need for a proof of competency, this has no positive effect, it just holds people back.

People want to have their time respected. They don't want people in their group who cause problems and slow things down because they don't know what to do, or can't do what they're supposed to.

Respecting someone else's time should be a matter of course. Them screening to weed out people who are likely to not show that respect is not a problem.

WotLK is still a very easy game, even ICC Heroic will be cleared very easily

Since it's so super easy, you will have your achievement immediately and therefore this isn't a problem.

The hypothetical scenario of some otherwise skilled, prepared, and geared player simply missing out on the achievement because of bad timing or bad luck but ALSO incapable of either leading themselves or finding a guild is such a niche case it doesn't actually matter. Those are a TINY amount of people compared to the VAST MASSES of people who are underskilled, underprepared, and undergeared and simply want someone to carry them through content.

Achievements are a good way of screening out those kinds of problematic people, and if in the process of stopping 99.9% of problems the 0.1% of edge cases that wouldn't be a problem get hit, too, that's totally acceptable.

[AwkwardSquirtle]

Then why are you playing this game? Classic shouldn't be focused on performance and clearing fast etc, it should be focused on community and fun. If you rather take geared "pumpers" that might be elitistic and rude, to clear MH+BT in 2,5 hours instead of taking friendly less geared players and clear in 4 hours, then I truly think this is the wrong game for you.

Speedclears, "pumper culture" etc is a cancer for this game, achievements will only make it worse. Classic is a nostalgia trip, where 90%+ has already cleared it back in the day and with todays standard it's riddicilously easy, so there is 0 need to divide us with achivs etc.

Why do you get to decide what the community should be, or indeed what is fun for everyone? Not everyone wants to wipe for hours on farm. After you've cleared a raid several times, I understand not wanting to wipe again when the "friendly guy" just won't stop standing in defile or whatever.

[Battlebeard]

There's no armory, just fake it.

Yeah, should I fall behind I would, but like I mentioned, the big problem is the attitude. Even if I personally get invited, I HATE that the game becomes non-inclusive and that some people are left out cause they lack achievements.

It was riddicilous back in the day, even more now. The fact that people will ask for achievements in a game that 90% has already experienced is a joke. We gonna see people who did realm first clears back in the day not getting invited now, it's wrong.

[ZazuuPriest]

I don't think anyone should ever have to lead themselves to play the game. Not everyone has the ability to lead, it takes a certain personality trait etc to lead properly, that should never be a requirement.

then youre at the mercy of those who are willing to lead, they don't owe you anything and if someone is too beta to be able to make a group for easy dungeon content then they quite literally deserve to wait until someone wants them or learn to do it themselves.

[Battlebeard]

People want to have their time respected. They don't want people in their group who cause problems and slow things down because they don't know what to do, or can't do what they're supposed to.

Respecting someone else's time should be a matter of course. Them screening to weed out people who are likely to not show that respect is not a problem.


Since it's so super easy, you will have your achievement immediately and therefore this isn't a problem.

The hypothetical scenario of some otherwise skilled, prepared, and geared player simply missing out on the achievement because of bad timing or bad luck but ALSO incapable of either leading themselves or finding a guild is such a niche case it doesn't actually matter. Those are a TINY amount of people compared to the VAST MASSES of people who are underskilled, underprepared, and undergeared and simply want someone to carry them through content.

Achievements are a good way of screening out those kinds of problematic people, and if in the process of stopping 99.9% of problems the 0.1% of edge cases that wouldn't be a problem get hit, too, that's totally acceptable.

I think it's gonna be extremely many who will be screwed. If you don't start in the first weeks or level slow, you are gonna have so much troubles.

Expect people who spend hours searching for raids on a daily basis. It's gonna be just like before. "Hi, do you need a X class, know the tactics, cleared it back in the day, got pre-bis gear" etc and they get the reply "link achiv or fk off"... gonna be just like that all over again, never any trust, never any chance, never any communication, never any humanity.

[Kralljin]

Then why are you playing this game? Classic shouldn't be focused on performance and clearing fast etc, it should be focused on community and fun. If you rather take geared "pumpers" that might be elitistic and rude, to clear MH+BT in 2,5 hours instead of taking friendly less geared players and clear in 4 hours, then I truly think this is the wrong game for you.

It is how i and the people i'm creating a pug for play the game.
So no, this isn't the "wrong game" if i find enough people to create a group that plays by these rules.

Completely disregarding that i don't see the connection between "bad performing" and "friendly", these things don't go hand in hand.

Speedclears, "pumper culture" etc is a cancer for this game, achievements will only make it worse. Classic is a nostalgia trip, where 90%+ has already cleared it back in the day and with todays standard it's riddicilously easy, so there is 0 need to divide us with achivs etc.

If you want to play this game that way, go ahead, however don't make me play by your rules.
Make a group that invites anyone who whispers you and see how this model spreads, i will give you my word, people will vote with their feet.

And i can tell you from personal experience: there are still quite a few people out there who frankly would not be able to clear MH / BT if others did not do the heavy lifting for them.

[Battlebeard]

Why do you get to decide what the community should be, or indeed what is fun for everyone? Not everyone wants to wipe for hours on farm. After you've cleared a raid several times, I understand not wanting to wipe again when the "friendly guy" just won't stop standing in defile or whatever.

I don't decide, but I believe it's generally agreed that this version of WoW, classic, is really an easy nostalgia trip back to the more innocent days, where raids were easy . To have a hardcore mindset in this version makes no sense, as the hardest content here is litterally easier than LFR in retail.

Classic is like Yoshi Story or some super easy single player game, yet people approach it like it's Elden Ring on extra-hard difficulty (never played elden ring but you get my point).

I litterally NEVER wiped in 10 weeks of MH+BT pugs, and Naxx is MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH easier than MH/BT. Sure my pug was great, but it's still riddicilous that achievements will come to the game.

[Biomega]

I think it's gonna be extremely many who will be screwed.

You're free to think so, I don't think most people would agree.

You're pretending like this is a pervasive problem with no outs of remedies, and that's just not true. There's PLENTY of casual groups doing their own progression on things that you can jump in at any time with zero prerequisites.

But that's not what people want. They want efficient speed clears that will carry them to gear quickly and with zero effort. And if they can't have those, they invent all these scenarios of how the ONLY THING holding them back is people wanting achievement links. Which is complete and utter nonsense.

[Battlebeard]

It is how i and the people i'm creating a pug for play the game.
So no, this isn't the "wrong game" if i find enough people to create a group that plays by these rules.

Completely disregarding that i don't see the connection between "bad performing" and "friendly", these things don't go hand in hand.

If you want to play this game that way, go ahead, however don't make me play by your rules.
Make a group that invites anyone who whispers you and see how this model spreads, i will give you my word, people will vote with their feet.

And i can tell you from personal experience: there are still quite a few people out there who frankly would not be able to clear MH / BT if others did not do the heavy lifting for them.

The problem is that what you describe goes against the entire spirit of classic. You are playing this game the wrong way, sorry, but I truly believe that. What is the purpose of getting this game, a game completely different game from Retail, if you are gonna play it like retail. It makes no sense at all.

- - - Updated - - -

You're free to think so, I don't think most people would agree.

You're pretending like this is a pervasive problem with no outs of remedies, and that's just not true. There's PLENTY of casual groups doing their own progression on things that you can jump in at any time with zero prerequisites.

But that's not what people want. They want efficient speed clears that will carry them to gear quickly and with zero effort. And if they can't have those, they invent all these scenarios of how the ONLY THING holding them back is people wanting achievement links. Which is complete and utter nonsense.

Have you tried playing Retail? Try getting into it and finding a group. You can spend days without finding a single group. This will happen here as well.

[Jastall]

The problem is that what you describe goes against the entire spirit of classic. You are playing this game the wrong way, sorry, but I truly believe that. What is the purpose of getting this game, a game completely different game from Retail, if you are gonna play it like retail. It makes no sense at all.

Man do you need a serious reality check if you think people back in Wrath, or even TBC or later Classic, didn't screen their applicants.

[Battlebeard]

Man do you need a serious reality check if you think people back in Wrath, or even TBC or later Classic, didn't screen their applicants.

I never said they never screened people, the entire thread, if you read it, is that we are going BACK to the hell of being screened that we saw in WotLK.

Yes, people screened in TBC and Vanilla, and in TBC Classic and WoW Classic, but not at the same level, and not without using third party sites like WoWLogs etc. Achievements puts it ingame, and makes it easier to screen others.