"Catering to 5% of your player base will leave you with 5% of your player base"

[Glorious Leader]

and blizzard should have said to them " tough luck " we rahter cater to 90 % of players - if 5 % dont like it quit game

instead they made 90 % quit for sake of 5%.

and how Ion didnt get fired for that is mystery to me. one woudl think he must have files on all exectutives who were molesting employees or something because people normaly get fired for 10 % of what he did wrong. hell even for 5%.

that was the most blatant shit ever... that was literally them balancing one group of players against another. priveliging those dicks because evidently their 15 bucks is worth more?

[Teekey]

Am I the only one that feels like there was a metric shit ton of casual content in Shadowlands? More than we've had in a long time. There's this really strange perception that just because Mythic raiding and M+ exists, that casual players are completely ignored. I really don't understand it.

I feel like this change in perception has mostly been because of external factors (i.e. what other games have) rather than any change in WoW's design philosophy.

[arkanon]

Am I the only one that feels like there was a metric shit ton of casual content in Shadowlands? More than we've had in a long time.

I have watched wow become more and more casual focused, with amazing amounts of casual friendly / solo friendly content, with casual players and even solo players able to gear up to levels never seen in wow before. Some still think its not enough. Now personally, I dont like the solo content the do have, its there, i just dont like it. And i think thats part of the problem - its not that the game doesnt cater to casuals, it absolutely does, its just that the way they do it doesnt appeal to everyone, and never will.

[MoanaLisa]

Am I the only one that feels like there was a metric shit ton of casual content in Shadowlands? More than we've had in a long time. There's this really strange perception that just because Mythic raiding and M+ exists, that casual players are completely ignored. I really don't understand it.

I feel like this change in perception has mostly been because of external factors rather than any change in WoW's design philosophy.

I'll take a stab at it. Raids and to a lesser extent M+ have been designed to keep the people that run them more engaged over the entire course of a patch. Solo and world content is not really like that. Occasionally, a patch zone gets released that can be done in a few days and then you're done (unless you want to do raids hence raid or die design). I think having content and rewards that would stretch out world and casual play for more of a patch or launch content would be a popular thing with a lot of players. Not all, of course, but quite a few. The design clearly doesn't even try to do this although lately if you're a collector of mounts/pets this last patch should be your thing.

There's all kinds of ways to do this. They've made a start with changes to professions but in my view it's only a start. There could be random events, housing/base building and other things. One only needs to look around at the feature sets of other MMO's to see ways to get it done.

To be clear I don't have any agenda about M+ and raids. They're fine. Expansions, however, tend to have progression paths through them and in WoW's case all of those paths seem to lead to raiding. If you don't raid, then you're out of luck and quit for a few months. That's OK too but there is a clear business case for doing something to keep casual players around for longer.

[Sorrior]

It wasnt single player friendly, you as the most were simply terrible at it and took x20 times the amount required to do things, you guys confuse tedious and boring thing with single player experiences cause you dont know better.

GW2 is a single player MMO experience, you cant even lose cause the NPCs literally rez you during the scenarion story missions, i dont know about FFXIV, i wont ever play that crap, i hate the graphics.

SL had 0 complains about "single player content" until the 6 month by the way, you know what that means right ?It means it took you bads 6 months to catch up, only reason the complains started is because they fucked up and needed 1 more month for 9.1 or we wouldnt be having this discussion, all they had to do was merge the story line to 1 big covenant story line with a few more quests and you dummies wouldnt even understand the difference, thats all there is to it.

..Or we had fun doing what you consider tedious

[Teekey]

Occasionally, a patch zone gets released that can be done in a few days and then you're done (unless you want to do raids hence raid or die design

I feel like we're playing different games if you think the entirety of The Maw, Korthia, and ZM were just completed and all their rewards collected, in a few days.

Like, I don't even think there's a common ground for further discussion when your biggest point feels, from my perspective, so far from reality.

[Azharok]

I feel like we're playing different games if you think the entirety of The Maw, Korthia, and ZM were just completed and all their rewards collected, in a few days.

Like, I don't even think there's a common ground for further discussion when your biggest point feels, from my perspective, so far from reality.

Power related rewards are collected with daily/weekly grinds, if you want to grind all the collectibles, feel free to do it, but i don't think the "5%" are interested in cosmetics or toys.

[Teekey]

Power related rewards are collected with daily/weekly grinds, if you want to grind all the collectibles, feel free to do it, but i don't think the "5%" are interested in cosmetics or toys.

You seem confused. We're talking about casual players. So yeah, that's exactly my point. Collectables are the casual content in this game, and there's a ton to collect in Shadowlands.

[Jastall]

If Solo content is bad, when it used to be good... then that's the literal definition of "getting worse over time". So I fail to see where the Lie is.
Bold Tier Sets were removed from LFR in WOD (from Memory) and removed entirely from the game in BFA. I believe they might be back in 9.2 (no idea as I'm un-subbed) so are you implying they're now available via LFR? As applying to Normal pugs via the group finder isn't Queuing.

It was quite enjoyable, back in those expansions, to queue LFR on Alts and collect their Sets, same with the Dungeon Sets. Again, Blizzard killed that style of Game play... partly because Mythic Raiders complained about farming LFR for their Tier Sets.

LFR had dropped tier for as long as tier existed save for WoD specifically; it did in Legion for instance, and does in 9.2. And if you advance the campaign you unlock the Creation Catalyst which allows you to convert items to tier at an about 1/week rate.

It's a far cry above, say, Wrath where the only way for casual players to get tier was to either raid or run 1 dungeon a day for like 20 days per piece. It's easier than ever for a casual player to gear up. I've no idea where this fantasy that the game exclusively caters to the hardcore comes from.

[Dakara]

LFR had dropped tier for as long as tier existed save for WoD specifically; it did in Legion for instance, and does in 9.2. And if you advance the campaign you unlock the Creation Catalyst which allows you to convert items to tier at an about 1/week rate.

It's a far cry above, say, Wrath where the only way for casual players to get tier was to either raid or run 1 dungeon a day for like 20 days per piece. It's easier than ever for a casual player to gear up. I've no idea where this fantasy that the game exclusively caters to the hardcore comes from.

A lot of the discussion from my original post has focused on Tier sets, and while I did mentioned them as being fun to collect back in the day, it wasn’t the the main point I was raising, it’s just been picked up on I suppose because they were re-introduced in the recent patch and some people couldn’t wait to call me out on it.

My overall message was that content which players can solo queue for has been totally watered down and neglected over the past few expansions… this included LFD and PvP, not just LFR Tier sets.

Getting gear from solo WQ’s, IMO, is not an adequate replacement regardless of the gear quality.

[Jastall]

A lot of the discussion from my original post has focused on Tier sets, and while I did mentioned them as being fun to collect back in the day, it wasn’t the the main point I was raising, it’s just been picked up on I suppose because they were re-introduced in the recent patch and some people couldn’t wait to call me out on it.

My overall message was that content which players can solo queue for has been totally watered down and neglected over the past few expansions… this included LFD and PvP, not just LFR Tier sets.

Getting gear from solo WQ’s, IMO, is not an adequate replacement regardless of the gear quality.

I can't speak for PvP as I avoid it like the plague, but random dungeons have never been rewarding besides entry level gear- except in Cataclysm I guess, where on the flipside the random Heroics were too hard for most players. I suppose they could drop gear you can upgrade via Valor as well as a small amount of said currency to allow for slow and steady gear progression- I wouldn't be against it. But that'll by itself make them the most relevant to gear progression they've ever been.

Also, most of your post was about tier sets, so it's natural people responded in kind. It's not calling you out on anything to inform you of what's actually happening in-game.

[Celement]

I'll take a stab at it. Raids and to a lesser extent M+ have been designed to keep the people that run them more engaged over the entire course of a patch. Solo and world content is not really like that. Occasionally, a patch zone gets released that can be done in a few days and then you're done (unless you want to do raids hence raid or die design). I think having content and rewards that would stretch out world and casual play for more of a patch or launch content would be a popular thing with a lot of players. Not all, of course, but quite a few. The design clearly doesn't even try to do this although lately if you're a collector of mounts/pets this last patch should be your thing.

There's all kinds of ways to do this. They've made a start with changes to professions but in my view it's only a start. There could be random events, housing/base building and other things. One only needs to look around at the feature sets of other MMO's to see ways to get it done.

To be clear I don't have any agenda about M+ and raids. They're fine. Expansions, however, tend to have progression paths through them and in WoW's case all of those paths seem to lead to raiding. If you don't raid, then you're out of luck and quit for a few months. That's OK too but there is a clear business case for doing something to keep casual players around for longer.

I think the problem is power progression is all that really interests most players till they cap it if we peel back the curtains.

Look at WoD the expansion I would argue added more features for casual players then any other. World treasures, rare mobs dropping toys,mounts,transmogs and more scattered around the world. Garrison invasions and extremely powerful rewards via apexsis crystals.

None of that mattered in fact most of it went unnoticed. The problem is you see the casual as a normal person looking to play a game to relax and hang out with friends. While for most games that is true. The wow casual isn't that. The best comparison to what a casual is in wow I can think of is a frenzied ghoul.

A long dead thing ripping apart the innocent alive feasting on what it kills dispite never gaining anything from it.

I remember back when they made heroics easier for casuals and casuals didn't run them the mode just became dead... a game mode utterly destroyed for nothing till it was renamed mythic.

Long ago raiders and other good players kept these destructive creatures in check by vote kicking them when they did hunter pet dmg. Sadly blizzard betrayed those stalwart guardians of old... now we have people whining they can't out gear heroic raids or mythic 15s via world quests.

Larping that a casual is fueled by anything but by destructive and poisonous envy in wow is the height of folly. No matter their words their actions reveal them.

[Dakara]

I can't speak for PvP as I avoid it like the plague, but random dungeons have never been rewarding besides entry level gear- except in Cataclysm I guess, where on the flipside the random Heroics were too hard for most players. I suppose they could drop gear you can upgrade via Valor as well as a small amount of said currency to allow for slow and steady gear progression- I wouldn't be against it. But that'll by itself make them the most relevant to gear progression they've ever been.

Also, most of your post was about tier sets, so it's natural people responded in kind. It's not calling you out on anything to inform you of what's actually happening in-game.

For what it’s worth, this is my original post:

MMO stands for Massively Multiplayer Online (to state the obvious).
It’s does not stand for “Must be in pre-made group and Discord at all times.”

Playing “Solo” could refer to simply doing WQ’s or Queueing solo via a matchmaking system, and everything in between.
Personally, I throughly enjoyed playing both Cata and MOP “Solo” yet still did plenty of group content. It was just mostly via LFD/LFR and the odd PUG. LFD had nice welfare gear for Alts and LFR still had Tier sets. I didn’t care about my Ilvl or how I compared to Top Raiders, I just had fun.

Modern WOW has stripped away that fun over the years as it slowly eroded the rewards from queueable content, including PVP. Naturally, I went back to organised raiding, probably as Blizzard intended, but as is often the case, people quit, guilds collapse and I’m fed up of paying for server/faction transfers to join new guilds, and without the same fallback to Solo as I enjoyed in past expansions I simply quit.

As have many, many others.

There was a lot more in there than Tier sets yet it’s dominated the replies.

[Mojo03]

Great post. When you finally quit WoW and find a game that does that, let us know.

I haven't played in over a year now!

While it doesn't check all these boxes for an MMO - I've been playing No Man Sky lately. If you don't know what that is, I highly suggest trying it out.

It's also B2P (or on Game Pass) with big free updates every couples months + no MTX.

Excellent game and devs/community.

[Soon-TM]

You really think Mythic raiders care what gear you get ?

Judging by the self-styled mythic raiders ITT, they do seem to care a lot.

[MoanaLisa]

I think the problem is power progression is all that really interests most players till they cap it if we peel back the curtains.

I do agree. That's why patches are so often disappointing. SL has been a little better about that but historically it's not been uncommon that the majority of casual progression happened in the first two weeks after getting catch-up gear with little after that even with long grinds.

Your 'frenzied ghoul' business doesn't really track with reality in game since solo players and those who don't go into high-level M+ or beyond LFR are pretty much invisible. Frenzied ghouls wouldn't seem to be a description that's accurate for millions of players who simply quit until new content comes along (which is the business problem). There are lots of people that act out on forums, labeling and condescending to others simply to get a reaction. You don't have to look very far to see that.

[Zyky]

I'm very disappointed with whole announcement. No single world about casual and solo players.
Imo Ion again will focus on raiders and make ppl quit fast.

They didn't even talk about raids or dungeons, soooo your point? lol

[Utrrabbit]

So very this. I mean sure I don't think they will ever give a fuck but when players like me who paid x18 years simply unsub I mean they should really see something is not going well.

- - - Updated - - -



Yes it is and kindly tell me what major achievement can one get SOLO in wow? How far can pugs go? 2k pvp and 2-3 bosses mythic? Even the high end M+ can't be done solo grouping not without major pains that are NOT worth it.

Its an mmo. You want solo play solitaire.

You play an mmo to play with others. No too end reward should be given to solo players.

- - - Updated - - -

I'm very disappointed with whole announcement. No single world about casual and solo players.
Imo Ion again will focus on raiders and make ppl quit fast.

Every single thing they announced was aimed at casual gamers.

They did not even say anything about raids or m+. Which btw actually makes uo over 90% of the playerbase. The casual end is much lower.

- - - Updated - - -

A lot of the discussion from my original post has focused on Tier sets, and while I did mentioned them as being fun to collect back in the day, it wasn’t the the main point I was raising, it’s just been picked up on I suppose because they were re-introduced in the recent patch and some people couldn’t wait to call me out on it.

My overall message was that content which players can solo queue for has been totally watered down and neglected over the past few expansions… this included LFD and PvP, not just LFR Tier sets.

Getting gear from solo WQ’s, IMO, is not an adequate replacement regardless of the gear quality.

If you play solo you should not get the best gear. That simple.

[Dakara]

If you play solo you should not get the best gear. That simple.

WTF does that comment have to do with my post you quoted? Seriously, point out where I made any reference to “best gear.”

Honestly, my kids have better reading comprehension….

[Celement]

I do agree. That's why patches are so often disappointing. SL has been a little better about that but historically it's not been uncommon that the majority of casual progression happened in the first two weeks after getting catch-up gear with little after that even with long grinds.

Your 'frenzied ghoul' business doesn't really track with reality in game since solo players and those who don't go into high-level M+ or beyond LFR are pretty much invisible. Frenzied ghouls wouldn't seem to be a description that's accurate for millions of players who simply quit until new content comes along (which is the business problem). There are lots of people that act out on forums, labeling and condescending to others simply to get a reaction. You don't have to look very far to see that.

Fair enough I know at times I'm square in that crowd. I think it would also be fair to say my ideal mmo doesn't exist yet. Part of me still pines for the wow of yesteryear. Not the content most of it is exceedingly dull by today's standards but in the attitude most players had. There was a real sense of if you wanted to go do something just go out and do. That crowd now is shockingly thin in game. I don't know if the same crowd got older or a new crowd took there place but players just give up and whine rather then try again.. there is no scuffed pull there is either a smooth run or the group disbands.

There is an annoying amount of trivial content that while not the fault of anyone community is clearly being add to pad things out. I stand by the ghoul comparisons heroic dungeons died the day they were made into the old normal mode and the players who demanded it stopped running them that same day as well.

Honestly I just wish a mmo consistented of more then my friends list and my guild. For how little interactions there are even in mythic + 25 if you replaced pugs with bots I'm not even sure I would catch on. The only place I've seen any kind of community outside of guilds is oddly pvp.