(Leak?) Redshirt guy finds release date, main villain and allied race with preorder

[Triceron]

It doesn't have to part of the main story though just like the Isle of Thunder wasn't about the main story of Sha returning to corrupt because of the Alliance vs Horde conflict. Having a cosmic aspect does not mean making the entire story about cosmic stuff. Hence why Dragonflight itself isn't cosmic even though it deals with Titans which are cosmic beings.

Just like Humans being in an expansion does not make it cosmic focused even though as you've pointed out they are cosmic created/corrupted beings. Murozond got corrupted by cosmic forces in response to wanting to protect us from cosmic forces. So his story is linked irrevocably.

Sure, but how does having him a 10.3 villain change that dynamic any more than TBC having Kil'jaeden entering through the Sunwell?

It didn't make all of TBC center around Kil'jaeden. His story was just a footnote in the rest of the TBC storyline, even though he was a cosmic level threat.

Why are you regarding Murozond any differently here just because I made an example of him being a Raid villain? If Blizzard simply wants to focus on Nozdormu's story as a part of 10.3, then that's what it is. It doesn't suddenly root the rest of Dragonflight as a 'Cosmic' expansion. We're just talking about resolving a Bronze Dragonflight storyline in one of the major raids; with this example being the final raid before our next major adventure.

I mean, what do you consider 'the main story' of TBC, and how do you consider Kil'Jaeden's involvement in that story overall as a cosmic level threat? If you're talking about taking things back to how things were in Vanilla and TBC, then you have to clarify what you actually think TBC was all about.

[Ersula]

So then why isn't WoD "cosmic" because it is about other worldly forces invading just so they can invade Azeroth? This is the problem that arises when people use terms that they define with arbitrary definitions. They pick and choose what to apply them to depending on what they need to vilify or support.

a.) this is how blizzard defines these expansions; they're the one's who explained they like to alternate between "cosmic & down-to-earth" expansions, and b.)I think you're forgetting the events of WoD: the only parts that involved an antagonist force invading another planet was the very, very beginning (the 45 minutes between the iron horde opening the dark portal & when the players destroy it from the other side) and the very, very end (when Archemonde is summoned through guldan's portal) the rest was standard Warcraft faire: Building settlements, delving into dungeons & fighting advancing armies. Compare that to MoP, where we were exorcising evil spirits, investigating intrigue within our own factions & unlocking our third eye, you get the impression of two distinct "vibes" of an expansion.

[rhorle]

Sure, but how does having him a 10.3 villain change that dynamic any more than TBC having Kil'jaeden entering through the Sunwell?

Do you actually read the posts? Because I keep answering the things you ask yet you keep asking the same things. TBC was never a non-cosmic or non-demon related expansion. So Kil'jaeden showing up doesn't change anything about the dynamics. If Dragonflight is supposed to be a non cosmic themed expansion then a cosmic force showing up sort of runs that, right?

10.3 would be the final encounter of the raid and the major conclusion of the story Blizzard has been building towards.

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a.) this is how blizzard defines these expansions; they're the one's who explained they like to alternate between "cosmic & down-to-earth" expansions

Yet they haven't alternated in the past, strange right? Cataclysm: Old God, Mists: Old Gods, WoD: Demons & Infinte, Legion: Demons, BfA: Old Gods, Shadowlands: Eternal Ones.

WoD had us invading a planet because they were invading us all because a rogue Bronze dragon wanted to create an infinite horde. Along the way we defeat the Demons invading the planet and destroy two major empires the Gorian and Arrakoa along the way. That isn't "down to earth" in the slightest lol.

Pandaria was all about the remains of an Old God and what happens when you show to much emotion around the remians. Heart of Fear had us save ex-servants of the old god just for them to end up following the old god again when a member of the horde falls to corruption. But yeah sure "down to earth".

Pretty much "normal wow stuff" is cosmic related.

[Triceron]

Do you actually read the posts? Because I keep answering the things you ask yet you keep asking the same things. TBC was never a non-cosmic or non-demon related expansion. So Kil'jaeden showing up doesn't change anything about the dynamics. If Dragonflight is supposed to be a non cosmic themed expansion then a cosmic force showing up sort of runs that, right?

Nope, not right. As I said, I completely disagree, and I even made an example of Wrath which isn't a cosmic expansion either, yet clearly featured Yogg Saron and Algalon.

You even acknowledge Titan Watchers will be involved in Dragonflight. Uldaman is even back with a major update of some form. If you're okay with that, I see no reason why you need to hold a double standard to Murozond, who is less cosmic related than the Watchers, who are direct creations of the Titans.

10.3 would be the final encounter of the raid and the major conclusion of the story Blizzard has been building towards.

Yes, and a conclusion doesn't overshadow everything that came before it, especially if the themes are already present in the material we're covering. The inevitable creation of the Infinite is a part of the Bronze's storyline.

And regardless of it being a major raid villain or not, you seemed to bring up an argument against Murozond before I even made an example of him being a major raid villain.

All Hazzikostas said was they wanted to bring it back down to classic fantasy, rather than the high-fantasy nature of Shadowlands.

Hazzikostas notes that all this is “not to say that there won’t be cosmic adventures in the future and that we don’t still live in a world and a universe full of these great threats. But, at its core, this is adventurers of Azeroth going to a place full of mystery and intrigue, full of familiar faces and foes from centaurs, to Gnolls, to our friends, the Tuskarr. It’s also a whole new world of threats – massive giants, primal dragons that were a different path that dragonkind could have taken had the outcome of the fight against Galakrond been different, and more.

cosmic adventures in the future can easily refer to next expansion. Or a 10.2/3 raid. It's really an ambiguous answer that merely precludes an intent to have 10.0 start off with localized threats and smaller form adventures. And all mentions of cosmic level high-fantasy threats simply pertains to wanting things brought back to a classic style adventuring. It isn't really a statement to exclude cosmic themes from the story as a whole. I mean, no matter how you cut it, this expansion will involve cosmically-empowered Dragon Aspects and Titan Watchers in the story.

[Powerogue]

I am gonna guess Tuskarr is the allied race. They have an otter mount, they wear player model glasses and they added females and kids and upressed them.

Who are the Darkfallen??

Taliesin would explode.

But at the same time, I'm not against playable tuskarr.

[rhorle]

Nope, not right. As I said, I completely disagree, and I even made an example of Wrath which isn't a cosmic expansion either, yet clearly featured Yogg Saron and Algalon.

A force sent by the Lich King to destroy resistence on the planet, an Old God, Titan servant are all cosmic related though. Notice how I never said anything about WotLK so yet again you try to move the goal posts to something that wasn't said. Of course the Titans are involved in Dragonflight. As I've already said almost all lore in WoW is cosmic related because the planet keeps getting messed up by Aliens. This isn't something I've denied and something I've said from the start.

I'm not holding a double standard to Murozond. I've already said he can appear to initiate an event or not as the final boss of the expansion. Because the final boss of the expansion is all about where the story has been building up to and what the story of that expansion is ultimately about. There is no denying that Murozond was corrupted by the Old Gods and that he was protecting the world from a cosmic threat greater then the Old Gods. That is existing lore which means his appearance would be linked to that cosmic level stuff.

especially if the themes are already present in the material we're covering.

Hence why he wouldn't make sense for a "non-cosmic level threat" expansion if his cosmic related themes have to present in the material already. It is almost like you are arguing just to argue regardless of what is actually being stated.

you seemed to bring up an argument against Murozond before I even made an example of him being a major raid villain.

To be honest, the whole expansion has room for Galakrond, Chromatus and Murozond all being feature villains in the expansion. Galakrond and Murozond have been mentioned by name in interviews though.

Unless it's as an end boss. by a 10.3 (or 10.2 if they are going with Shadowlands tiering moving forward) the focus of Dragon Isles themes would have been mostly done with

How can I be the first one to bring up Murozond as a major raid villain when you were the first to call him a "feature villain" and "Final raid boss"? You mentioned a final raid as an excuse to bring in cosmic level stuff to the Dragon Flight story after I stated how Murozond has strong cosmic-force connections in lore. All I did was relent on him being a side aspect even though he is still cosmic-related. Lol.

I also relented because an interview I saw after I saw this discussion didn't reference "non-cosmic" stuff but a story more like Mists of Pandaria that where it is about the environment even if the big bad focus is cosmic level stuff.

https://www.wowhead.com/news/ion-haz...racthyr-326855

As for the big bosses, major upgrade bosses, and final boss, we certainly have these things planned out, but this is not an expansion where there is upfront immediately a single villain who's going to destroy Azeroth who we have to stop. I think a close analogy in some ways is Mists of Pandaria, where we arrived at a new land with a culture and different problems and different threats, and over the course of those journeys, we quickly came to understand who those threats where, but the story of Pandaria was not, "oh the Mogu must be stopped because they're going to destroy Azeroth!" It was an environmental story that you discovered as you went through the place, and so our plan with Dragonflight in the Dragon Isles is similar, and our hope is that by the end of those first weeks, it will be clear who the major villains are, and where our fight will take us.

[Triceron]

A force sent by the Lich King to destroy resistence on the planet, an Old God, Titan servant are all cosmic related though. Notice how I never said anything about WotLK so yet again you try to move the goal posts to something that wasn't said. Of course the Titans are involved in Dragonflight. As I've already said almost all lore in WoW is cosmic related because the planet keeps getting messed up by Aliens. This isn't something I've denied and something I've said from the start.

I'm not holding a double standard to Murozond. I've already said he can appear to initiate an event or not as the final boss of the expansion. Because the final boss of the expansion is all about where the story has been building up to and what the story of that expansion is ultimately about. There is no denying that Murozond was corrupted by the Old Gods and that he was protecting the world from a cosmic threat greater then the Old Gods. That is existing lore which means his appearance would be linked to that cosmic level stuff.

So you acknowledge the Titan Watchers and Aspects being cosmically empowered. And they are a prominent feature in Dragonflight. So we're all clear that cosmic themes have a place in this expansion.

That being said, what do you think Hazzikostas was actually talking about when referring to cosmic forces? He probably wasn't talking about excluding the Dragonflights or the Watchers. He probably wasn't talking about excluding Murozond, who is still an Azeroth-rooted threat. He was merely talking about keeping things localized to high fantasy concepts like Centaurs, Gnolls and Tuskar. Which is fine, because that's exactly what we had in previous expansions like Wrath, MoP and Legion.

So you didn't mention Wrath because you personally deem it cosmic forces? Well it's arbitrary, because Hazzikostas could just as easily consider Wrath a staple of the very High Fantasy concept they want to get back to. Because if you actually look at the questing in Wrath, much of that was localized threats rather than cosmic exploration. And the inclusion of supernatural Scourge and Old God and Titan Watcher threats do not overshadow the Tuskar, Vrykul and Furbolg that we interacted with.

As I said, you seem to misinterpret the intent of the mission statement and take it to mean all cosmic themes are off the table.

Hence why he wouldn't make sense for a "non-cosmic level threat" expansion if his cosmic related themes have to present in the material already. It is almost like you are arguing just to argue regardless of what is actually being stated.

I don't think Murozond is a cosmic level threat at all. As I said, he is very much rooted in Azeroth. The Infinite Dragonflight allowed players to interact with key events in Warcraft's history. I don't consider that a cosmic threat at all, since this threat was not coming from the cosmos, but rather simply manipulating events of the past.

How can I be the first one to bring up Murozond as a major raid villain when you were the first to call him a "feature villain" and "Final raid boss"? You mentioned a final raid as an excuse to bring in cosmic level stuff to the Dragon Flight story after I stated how Murozond has strong cosmic-force connections in lore. All I did was relent on him being a side aspect even though he is still cosmic-related. Lol.

I also relented because an interview I saw after I saw this discussion didn't reference "non-cosmic" stuff but a story more like Mists of Pandaria that where it is about the environment even if the big bad focus is cosmic level stuff.

https://www.wowhead.com/news/ion-haz...racthyr-326855

The first quote merely mentions them as 'feature villains'. That doesn't immediately equate Murozond having to be a raid boss. Garrosh was a major villain of WoD without being a raid boss in the expansion, we had already fought him previously. Same can be said of Murozond, who we fully defeated in Cataclysm and we very likely would not be killing in Dragonflight. I merely brought up Chromatus, Galakrond and Murozond as characters who may be feature villains, from a lore perspective. How Blizzard chooses to represent them in the game is really up to them. We've had plenty of major villains who merely ended up as major Dungeon bosses, rather than a raid boss. Aszhara in Legion comes to mind.

As for the second quote, I was making a point that they could still have him as a 10.3 final raid boss to tie in future threats, WITH a cosmic angle, and it would still not change the Dev's mission statement to have the rest of Dragonflight focused on localized threats. Because we're still talking about all the content between 10.0 and 10.3 end-raid being focused on localized threats; the exact formula that Mists of Pandaria followed, and which you now have quoted.

[Swnem]

I still think it's the 4 covenant races.

This is ridiculous. It's not gonna be any Shadowlands races. It would be ludicrous to have people in their afterlife come to the world of the living. They have a purpose in the Shadowlands. They don't just up and leave. It would cheapen death so much.
Actually, based on the Kyrian campaign, i'm unsure they can even materialise in the physical realm of the living. Kyrian are seen as the res spirits, which you only see when you are dead in Azeroth.

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I still think Lightforged Undead for Alliance (like Calia, but reusing the forsaken model) and Enhanced Forsaken (Like Nathanos) for Horde is the way to go, basically giving human models to the Horde and Undead to Alliance

Pass. Besides, it would make no sense for them to join the Alliance. They will have to live with the other forsaken. But, can they even be raised anymore? No more Valkyrs. Why would Calia res more even if she could?
Calia is with the Forsaken. She is not gonna abandon them to raise a new set.

I say Sethrak for Alliance cause Vulpera need an antagonist and ogres/monathal for the Horde cause they keep asking for it.
Alternatively, those plant people and saberon we saw escape from AU draenor.

[rhorle]

So you acknowledge the Titan Watchers and Aspects being cosmically empowered. And they are a prominent feature in Dragonflight. So we're all clear that cosmic themes have a place in this expansion.

Again. Something I've never denied. It was about cosmic threat as the bad guy. Which is what Blizzard implied or many of the community thought Blizzard meant. As I've said many times already you can't seperate cosmic stuff from WoW because all of its lore surrounds cosmic beings.

He was merely talking about keeping things localized to high fantasy concepts like Centaurs, Gnolls and Tuskar. Which is fine, because that's exactly what we had in previous expansions like Wrath, MoP and Legion.

Old gods are not "Centaurs, Gnolls, and Tuskarr" level threats. So scratch MoP off that list. The Legion is not as well so scratch them off that list. WotLK is debatable because of the Origins of the Scourge and Helm of Domination including what we know now of with Shadowlands. So again "High Fantasy" isn't being accurately used if it means is not supposed to included cosmic level threats right?

Murozond was led to corruption by Old Gods, died trying to bring about the Hour of Twilight, and implied he wanted to protect the planet from some threat bigger then the Old Gods. If that isn't Cosmic level forces then nothing in the game is. A story about him would have to include those elements because they are core to his existing identity. Unless of course Blizzard does a retcon to downplay or change those things.

The first quote merely mentions them as 'feature villains'.

Right. I didn't mention raiding until after your second quote. So you still brought up the topics of discussion first despite trying to claim you didn't.

As for the second quote, I was making a point that they could still have him as a 10.3 final raid boss to tie in future threats

Which would mean that Dragonflight has to be about the cosmic threat otherwise he wouldn't make sense as a tie in, right? Because the final boss of the expansion is the final chapter of the story of Dragonflight. 10.3 can't be focused on a localized threat if Murozond would be linked to a cosmic threat. You can't have it both ways by saying he is the tie-in for a cosmic threat while also not being about a cosmic threat at all.

the exact formula that Mists of Pandaria followed, and which you now have quoted.

Siege of Ogrimmar was linked to the old gods and thus a cosmic threat. So the MoP formula was to link the final boss to the over all story of the expansion which was dealing with the remains of a dead cosmic threat and how that dead cosmic threat can still corrupt a people/things. So if they follow the same formula and Murzond is linked to a cosmic threat then the story of Dragonflight would have to reflect that right?

[Bleu42]

So Blizzard refuses to add new animations to the new race, locking it behind a single class, but ya'll think they'll add the Tuskarr or the Naga and give THEM a ton of new animations for multiple classes? And somehow this wasn't announced with the reveal?

[Triceron]

Old gods are not "Centaurs, Gnolls, and Tuskarr" level threats

Neither is Murozond.

Murozond was led to corruption by Old Gods, died trying to bring about the Hour of Twilight, and implied he wanted to protect the planet from some threat bigger then the Old Gods. If that isn't Cosmic level forces then nothing in the game is. A story about him would have to include those elements because they are core to his existing identity. Unless of course Blizzard does a retcon to downplay or change those things.

That's still your opinion, not actually anything related to what the Devs said.

Hazzikostas said we would be dealing with classic high fantasy content, with a focus on adventuring, with the story eventually unfolding to explore what major villains are behind the expansion. There's nothing there saying there couldn't be a cosmic level threat by the end of the expansion, because comparisons were made to Mists of Pandaria and you even acknowledge the Sha and Y'shaarj as being cosmic threats. So there's quite a big conflict between what the Devs are talking about (high fantasy like Mists of Pandaria) and what you're interpreting (No cosmic threats like Old Gods/Sha) because their example very much has Old God themes in it.

Right. I didn't mention raiding until after your second quote. So you still brought up the topics of discussion first despite trying to claim you didn't.

I said you had issue with me bringing up Murozond before I had even brought him up as a raid boss. I wasn't making any claim to say otherwise.

Which would mean that Dragonflight has to be about the cosmic threat otherwise he wouldn't make sense as a tie in, right? Because the final boss of the expansion is the final chapter of the story of Dragonflight. 10.3 can't be focused on a localized threat if Murozond would be linked to a cosmic threat. You can't have it both ways by saying he is the tie-in for a cosmic threat while also not being about a cosmic threat at all.

Not at all, because Murozond himself doesn't deal with cosmic powers. He is a corrupted Bronze Aspect, that's it. His story does not end with Dragonflight, it ends with us dealing with him in Cataclysm. So by all means, dealing with him would be a 'setback' that is meant to resolve whatever Bronze Dragon storylines happen throughout the expansion.

And even setting him up as 10.3 villain does not mean he is behind everything. Even N'zoth at the end of BFA was not the true villain of BFA, who was ultimately Sylvanas. N'zoth was just the big threat that the expansion built up to.

Siege of Ogrimmar was linked to the old gods and thus a cosmic threat. So the MoP formula was to link the final boss to the over all story of the expansion which was dealing with the remains of a dead cosmic threat and how that dead cosmic threat can still corrupt a people/things. So if they follow the same formula and Murzond is linked to a cosmic threat then the story of Dragonflight would have to reflect that right?

Yes, and the devs made a direct comparison to Mists of Pandaria, did they not? High Fantasy, secret villain, and build ups to something bigger, and 'Cosmic threats explored in the future'. Nothing conflicts with their mission statement, which is to present 10.0 with high fantasy rooted in Azeroth.

[rhorle]

Yes, and the devs made a direct comparison to Mists of Pandaria, did they not? High Fantasy, secret villain, and build ups to something bigger, and 'Cosmic threats explored in the future'. Nothing conflicts with their mission statement, which is to present 10.0 with high fantasy rooted in Azeroth.

The Sha were not a secret villain. If they are "High Fantasy" then we haven't had a cosmic level threat in WoW yet. Even Shadowlands was just Titans 2.0.

And even setting him up as 10.3 villain does not mean he is behind everything. Even N'zoth at the end of BFA was not the true villain of BFA, who was ultimately Sylvanas. N'zoth was just the big threat that the expansion built up to.

Sylvanas was not the main villain of BfA. She was the sub plot setting up the next expansion. Everything was pointing to an Old God pulling the strings with Sylvanas doing her own thing to influence the unfolding events for the Jailer.

There's nothing there saying there couldn't be a cosmic level threat by the end of the expansion, because comparisons were made to Mists of Pandaria and you even acknowledge the Sha and Y'shaarj as being cosmic threats.

So which is it. High Fantasy focused which excludes cosmic threats or it is cosmic threats which wouldn't be High Fantasy. You can't keep having it both ways here. Mists of Pandaria wasn't high fantasy because it was focused on the Old Gods, a cosmic threat. The only time it wasn't was the Isle of Thunder.

[Triceron]

[QUOTE=rhorle;53739907]The Sha were not a secret villain. If they are "High Fantasy" then we haven't had a cosmic level threat in WoW yet. Even Shadowlands was just Titans 2.0.

Sylvanas was not the main villain of BfA. She was the sub plot setting up the next expansion. Everything was pointing to an Old God pulling the strings with Sylvanas doing her own thing to influence the unfolding events for the Jailer.

She was a major villain. The Horde literally separating and
siding with Thrall and Saurfang made that adamantly clear. Blizzard just wanted to be dramatic with the loyalist plotline, otherwise there is no excuse for ignorance of Blizzard setting up Sylvanas as a villain.

You telling me they made high res cinematics for Saurfang because of N'zoth? The main plot was focused on Sylvanas.

So which is it. High Fantasy focused which excludes cosmic threats or it is cosmic threats which isn't High Fantasy. You can't keep having it both ways here. Mists of Pandaria wasn't high fantasy because it was focused on the Old Gods. The only time it wasn't was the Isle of Thunder.

The devs either are talking about having High Fantasy present at the start of the expansion, before the revelation of major villains being explored; or they do not see Old Gods as a cosmic threat and are factoring them into the High Fantasy equation. Both can be valid interpretations because that is how Mists could be interpreted in the same evaluation.

Either they are talking about Mists content where most of the content focused on local threats from various races simply at the start of the expansion, or else they overall do not see the Sha as a cosmic threat and consider the entire expansion fully high fantasy even with the Sha's presence and influence throughout the expansion.

Take your pick.

Otherwise how would you interpret how the devs compare Dragonflight's mission statements to MoP despite the Sha's clear presence throughout the entire expansion? I don't think you can with your interpretation.

[rhorle]

She was a major villain.

That still doesn't make her the "True" villain though. That was N'zoth.

The main plot was focused on Sylvanas.

All raids involved N'zoth and his minions trying to set him free with the final raid being about him being set free. That is text book main plot.
Either they are talking about Mists content where most of the content focused on local threats from various races simply at the start of the expansion, or else they overall do not see the Sha as a cosmic threat and consider the entire expansion fully high fantasy even with the Sha's presence and influence throughout the expansion.

Either they are talking about Mists content where most of the content focused on local threats from various races simply at the start of the expansion

Majority of the those local threats were because of the Sha. The only ones that were not were the Mogu and Zandalari which were sub plots. The main plot was still all about a dead Old God.

Otherwise how would you interpret how the devs compare Dragonflight's mission statements to MoP despite the Sha's clear presence throughout the entire expansion? I don't think you can with your interpretation.

That the community took it to mean no cosmic level threats but that isn't what Blizzard actually intends because it was never about not having cosmic level stuff. Simply about the approach to story telling.

[Le Conceptuel]

Yes that is what I said. It doesn't stop that many are expecting him to be high-concept related and introduce the next expansion. Like introduce the void, Yrel, etc. Murozond isn't low-concept. A titan empowered being led to corruption by the Old Gods who he helped bring about their dominace of Azeroth in order to protect Azeroth from something greater.

You only get low concept if you ignore the lore of the character and world. Which again is why high/low concept are the latest buzz words for people that only want certain stories with out the new ones like Shadowlands. It is less about high or low but about being on Azeroth about threats to Azeroth.

I'm sorry, but I don' quite understand what you're saying, then. It seems like everything you're saying supports the idea of using Murozond, save for that I think you may be correct that using him to introduce a higher-concept entity is somewhat of a misunderstanding of the character. Either way, I do get the sentiment that he may not fit well the themes of an optimistic exploration-focused expansion where there seems to be almost something of a scientific focus, but that is somewhat the case with MoP and Garrosh. I do figure that he'd make for a nuanced and interesting antagonist, though, since I have always found the Infinites to be one of the more interesting factions, though.

I think that I'd definitely rather save him for his own expansion, though. That I don't disagree with, either. I think it would be very nice to see him get his time in the spotlight, though that would necessitate a time-travel expansion, which nobody seems particularly interested in now.

[Triceron]

That the community took it to mean no cosmic level threats but that isn't what Blizzard actually intends because it was never about not having cosmic level stuff. Simply about the approach to story telling.

Anyone who thinks there's no cosmic threats in Dragonflight would just be misinterpreting their intent, really. Blizzard didn't say they are excluding them at all.

The devs said they want the expansion to be about high fantasy threats. Murozond is not himself a cosmic threat. As you said yourself, they could easily retcon his origins to not be due to Old God influence of they want to absolutely steer away from it. And even if they lean heavily on Old God influences, it wouldn't change the focus of the expansion to being about Old Gods at all.

[Le Conceptuel]

So then why isn't WoD "cosmic" because it is about other worldly forces invading just so they can invade Azeroth? This is the problem that arises when people use terms that they define with arbitrary definitions. They pick and choose what to apply them to depending on what they need to vilify or support.

This isn't a bad point at all. If I were to give my own answer, I personally prefer down-to-earth environments with only a good scoop or helping of the higher-concept stuff in my face. I think a good way of thinking about it is that "high-concept" elements would include direct, active interaction with the more Science Fiction-adjacent elements of WoW.

Part of it is in execution—I would consider Ulduar high-concept (and the good kind, at that!) and Uldaman low-concept. Uldaman is portrayed with what is generally a traditional fantasy aesthetic with little in the way of direct interaction with the higher forces. The Titans are not actively seen or interacted with, nor are their creations seen in bulk. Instead, the Titans and even their creations are generally shown in a light of mystery—any interaction we have with the Titan Keeper there is limited to few words and a single encounter, extending the mysterious nature of it. Conversely, Ulduar is higher-concept because we directly interact with several Titan Keepers in a very High Fantasy/Science Fantasy environment. It also touches on worlds outside of Azeroth and science fiction elements more prominently, with the robotic nature of the Keepers taking more precedence and ultimately culminating in a battle with Algalon, an entity actively in commission and serving the Titans from space.

I use this example not only because it is a good dichotomy of high/low-concept, but also because both are very good examples of what they're meant to be. Both are very memorable because each instance had massive lore implications and interesting encounters. Ulduar is absolutely how the high-concept stuff ought to be done—there needs to be a sense of reverence and mystery for the highest and most nebulous entities in the lore, which is something I do think that the new stuff doesn't have. I liked Legion and Argus in particular, but I think that it went a bridge too far when we saw the Titans directly. They were shown as too humanized, too small, and too accessible by the standards of the lore we had before. It invalidated some previous lore and opened up odd questions when they were no longer the distant, powerful alien race that they used to be. Demystification is a very bad thing to do to lore because it diminishes the awe and wonder of the setting dramatically. Both Ulduar and Uldaman managed to preserve a sense of awe and wonder—Uldaman as a great ruin full of ancient, near-divine relics, and Ulduar as an up-front interaction with the most profoundly cosmic and alien elements in World of Warcraft up until then (even relative to some things in Outland). The awe and mystery – whether of the Keepers or the Titans themselves – was prominent, and that simply isn't the case in a poor execution of a high-concept plot.

One thing I think would make for another good example is seeing a spaceship in World of Warcraft. Previously, the few Dimensional Ships we've seen were extremely powerful, awe-inducing things that created a sense of curiosity and fascination. That was generally absent in Legion, which was otherwise a good expansion, because we saw those ships everywhere. Normally, a sword-wielding hick from a roughly colonial-era planet getting to see a spaceship would be a moment of general shock and wonder, something which is absent when we're gunning them down with magic and generally seeing them 24/7. The entire Legion invasion, in fact, lacked weight in a lot of ways because it didn't really showcase their power very adequately. Back in WarCraft III, we saw the Legion as this extremely powerful, frightening force where only a single leader and a token force was enough to ravage entire kingdoms, destroy Dalaran, and nearly destroy a world tree. They had no spaceships, powerful weapons, or machines—they simply had Archimonde, who had enough of an intimidating presence to substitute for all of that. Similarly, Kil'Jaeden in TBC (otherwise a much worse expansion than Legion lorewise) had much more menace there because he didn't need a whole demonic army and a fleet of spaceships backing him up—his appearance alone induced a sense of dread and awe because even a weakened version of himself still being summoned into the world was enough to create a powerful raid boss which towered over the players and clearly communicated that everybody would be absolutely fucked if Kil'Jaeden actually showed up.

Now, there is no conservation of these things—as soon as Kil'Jaeden showed up in Legion, he was fought in a raid (albeit with plenty of help from powerful people, which did mitigate it somewhat) without much in the way of empowerment for us or a weakening factor for him. We were powerful enough to face him directly, which simply diminished his apparent power. Similarly, his active engagement with the characters somewhat reduced his sense of menace (to be fair, Archimonde was also made weaker by this in WarCraft III—he loved to blabber) and made him seem too humanized and consequently vulnerable. This may have been better if it were all saved for his abrupt moment of regret at the end of his encounter, but the prominence of these things was too extensive.

I think something which has been done well without any real deviation was maintaining the menacing aura of Fel Reavers. Fel Reavers have, ever since we first encountered one in TBC, always managed to induce a sincere sense of unrest and have always posed a wonderfully-intimidating threat to anybody who came across them. The noise they make, their lack of dialogue, and their scale, as well as the consistency of their power level (usually requiring a raid to defeat them in current content, that is) was enough to preserve their sense of menace and power from TBC - Legion.

I did go somewhat off-topic, but I figure it would be useful to at least share my opinions on the high-low concept dichotomy and where it does and doesn't work.

[Ersula]

Yet they haven't alternated in the past, strange right? Cataclysm: Old God, Mists: Old Gods, WoD: Demons & Infinte, Legion: Demons, BfA: Old Gods, Shadowlands: Eternal Ones.

WoD had us invading a planet because they were invading us all because a rogue Bronze dragon wanted to create an infinite horde. Along the way we defeat the Demons invading the planet and destroy two major empires the Gorian and Arrakoa along the way. That isn't "down to earth" in the slightest lol.

I want you to google the phrase "willfully obtuse" because its what you're being right now.

[Chain Chungus]

I bet it will be Dark Rangers. A single AR but with different versions for each faction (Blood Elf and Night Elf derived). The Blood Elf ones are Sylvanas' guard left over after her exile. Tyrande will explain all the stuff about the jailer to the Night Elf Dark Rangers from BFA, and they will rejoin the fold on Alliance. They will all have variations on red eyes and undead skin tones, share the same racial abilities, and the only two classes they can play will be hunter and rogue.

[rhorle]

The devs said they want the expansion to be about high fantasy threats. Murozond is not himself a cosmic threat. As you said yourself, they could easily retcon his origins to not be due to Old God influence of they want to absolutely steer away from it. And even if they lean heavily on Old God influences, it wouldn't change the focus of the expansion to being about Old Gods at all.

If they have to retcon his origins then that implies he would be a cosmic threat if they don't, right?

Many of the community is taking all of the talk of steering away from cosmic stuff to be nothing cosmic in the story. In your continual usage of High Fantasy means no cosmic stuff. So it is strange that even you yourself is misinterpreting the intent of Blizzard, right?