Do you like the First Ones' lore?

[olddog]

The creators of the Warcraft universe, the Progenitors of the six cosmic forces, and the true gods who founded the six pantheons. The Transcendental Ones who created all things in the universe, determined their destiny, and prepared the purpose for the past, present, and future.

The First Ones built Zereth and the inner sanctum in the six realms governed by each of the six forces, in which the blueprints of all creatures, laws, including the Pantheons, were prepared.

What do you guys think of the story of the true gods who put the universe under their feet and control everything?

[Wonderment2]

I don't overly like that Blizzard have begun to make a hobby to add a new levels to the cosmic hierarchy. But I now think it would do more harm to remove the new levels (with the exception of the Void Lords, which I'd change to be the "true" forms of Old Gods. With N'zoth having a corresponding void lord form in the Void dimension).

So long as the First Ones stay mysterious and never appear directly in the game. I don't mind them. But I fear in 15.0 we'll help the first ones uncover "Those From Before".

[Jaggler]

Hard to have an opinion about them, considering, we know very little.

I hope we don't learn too much about them, keeping a sense of mystery around themlike we once had around the titans.

[Super Dickmann]

They're fine for what they are, which are Ersatz pre-Chronicle Titans. They have no personalities and names and that's exactly how it should stay. The worst thing that happened to the Titans was clarification and characterization, Sargeras exempted.

[vizzle]

They're fine for what they are, which are Ersatz pre-Chronicle Titans. They have no personalities and names and that's exactly how it should stay. The worst thing that happened to the Titans was clarification and characterization, Sargeras exempted.

This is a universe where the story went into the afterlife and beat up Satan himself, so... these writers know very little about the value of mystery behind a veil. We are inevitably going to learn about all the First Ones, all their names and character traits, their many genders of course, full view of their very-human nipples despite being god-like beings, and then the writers will wonder where the mystery has gone, which is when they'll try to fix that with an even older layer of creators.

Edit: Just want to add -- I honestly don't know how death can ever feel important in this universe ever again. The characters have walked into the afterlife and explored every inch of it (which apparently were all its main zones). If Anduin dies in the cinematic finale of expansion 13, who the hell cares? Why should anyone care? He's in the Shadowlands. Go pick him up and have a talk.

It's really crazy how badly the writers have butchered this.

[Jaggler]

They're fine for what they are, which are Ersatz pre-Chronicle Titans. They have no personalities and names and that's exactly how it should stay. The worst thing that happened to the Titans was clarification and characterization, Sargeras exempted.

That's exactly what i mean, just worded better. Thanks :P

[ChairmanKaga]

What do you guys think of the story of the true gods who put the universe under their feet and control everything?

It's a shitty retread of the Titans.

[Super Dickmann]

This is a universe where the story went into the afterlife and beat up Satan himself, so... these writers know very little about the value of mystery behind a veil. We are inevitably going to learn about all the First Ones, all their names and character traits, their many genders of course, full view of their very-human nipples despite being god-like beings, and then the writers will wonder where the mystery has gone, which is when they'll try to fix that with an even older layer of creators.

Extremely likely, but not relevant just yet. They addressed the problem of removing all mystery by solving the setting in Chronicles and then have us team up with the Pantheon of gods to beat up Satan in Legion by adding the First Ones and another layer of mystery. So far so good. Then they also explained the longest-running and most compelling bit of mystique the setting had, Elune, in the same breath, so one step forward, one back.

[Marcosvms]

I really like the Lore of the First Ones. The chronicle's lore that "... in the beginning there was only Light... and Void" never made much sense.

But keep it that way with its due mysteries. For it was so in the time of the pre-chronicle Titans and the Old Gods. And even the Burning Legion itself. What could Blizzard explore more regarding how they influenced the other 6 cosmic forces.

[Shadowferal]

The very idea that such beings can be understood by a mortal is ludicrous..

[Varodoc]

Sincerely, why do they even exist?

I don't subscribe to forum theories very often but at this point I do think that Danuser is just jealous and envious of what the previous writers created, like many people on the internet have been saying.

First Ones = Titans 2.0 but cooler
Maldraxxus = Scourge 2.0 but more ancient
Zovaal the Janitor = Sargeras/Lich King 2.0 but more EVIL!!!
Threat that Zovaal is scared of (IF NOT THE VOID LORDS) = Void Lords 2.0 but EVEN MORE EVIL!!!

Literally everything the First Ones did could have been done by the Titans. They already created the Emerald Dream, a realm of Life that shows a version of Azeroth where life is pristine and untouched by mortals, why couldn't they have created the realm of Death too?

But maybe a better question is: Did we even need to know who created the Afterlife in the first place, should such a mystery have been revealed in the first place?

[Xilurm]

I'll like them until they start showing them. I really like the mysterious stuff. Uldaman is one of my fav dungeons for a reason.

[Aucald]

Sincerely, why do they even exist?

I don't subscribe to forum theories very often but at this point I do think that Danuser is just jealous and envious of what the previous writers created, like many people on the internet have been saying.

First Ones = Titans 2.0 but cooler
Maldraxxus = Scourge 2.0 but more ancient
Zovaal the Janitor = Sargeras/Lich King 2.0 but more EVIL!!!
Threat that Zovaal is scared of (IF NOT THE VOID LORDS) = Void Lords 2.0 but EVEN MORE EVIL!!!

Literally everything the First Ones did could have been done by the Titans. They already created the Emerald Dream, a realm of Life that shows a version of Azeroth where life is pristine and untouched by mortals, why couldn't they have created the realm of Death too? This is stupid.

It's highly likely the First Ones exist because there's a desire to telescope WoW's essential depth of field to include other cosmic realms, like they did with the Shadowlands in Shadowlands. The Titans were the creators of the physical universe, and the Legion was essentially their enemies in your standard dualistic fantasy context, and as of Legion we've essentially dealt with both those groups and reached a point where the physical universe no longer has that level of dramatic tension. The First Ones, and the nebulous threat given form by Zovaal's last words, constitute a new wider context for dramatic conflict that also increases the size of WoW's dramatic potential exponentially. YMMV on whether this is actually necessary to further WoW's storylines, really; I don't actually think this is the case, but the developers appear to disagree.

As for addressing the OP as concerns the First Ones' lore, well, it's okay - we don't really have a lot of it yet, so it's kind of hard to judge. There's still the potential for the First Ones to be quite different from the Titan Pantheon even though they share the same role as effective creator-gods, but a lot of that will hinge on what details we get of them going forward. The First Ones as effective Titan v2.0 wouldn't be great, so it really hinges on the part you added "but cooler" and how that makes them different and more interesting than the previous iteration.

[schwank05]

No clue if it's not in a cutscene I don't see anything as I have not read a quest text since 2006. If there is not a cutscene depicting what happened, then I have no clue what goes on in lore.

[Varodoc]

It's highly likely the First Ones exist because there's a desire to telescope WoW's essential depth of field to include other cosmic realms, like they did with the Shadowlands in Shadowlands. The Titans were the creators of the physical universe, and the Legion was essentially their enemies in your standard dualistic fantasy context, and as of Legion we've essentially dealt with both those groups and reached a point where the physical universe no longer has that level of dramatic tension. The First Ones, and the nebulous threat given form by Zovaal's last words, constitute a new wider context for dramatic conflict that also increases the size of WoW's dramatic potential exponentially. YMMV on whether this is actually necessary to further WoW's storylines, really; I don't actually think this is the case, but the developers appear to disagree.

Will you use this same argument when the Before Ones are revealed in 15.0? And when the Apocalyptic One, the villain who scared even the villains who terrified Zovaal, are revealed by the Voider Void Lords in 16.0? But then at which point do we stop adding new layers? When do we realize that it becomes ridiculous and redundant?

The lore was perfectly fine as set up by Chronicles. But people have been saying since forever that Blizzard rushed through the Legion and Old God plots, maybe they shouldn't have turned Argus, Nazjatar, and Ny'alotha into patch zones. Oh wait, Ny'alotha didn't even get that treatment.

So maybe if Blizzard didn't waste Kil'jaeden, Archimonde, Azshara, and N'Zoth in single patches, we wouldn't be where we are now, scraping the bottom of the barrel with all these new shades of Titans and Cosmic monsters.

[Guyviroth]

I like it, somewhat. I even liked the fact we went into the Shadowlands. It's just a shame the story and gameplay loop kinda fell flat. I think this is WoW's interpretation of going high fantasy that has been a growing concept in D&D, especially with its major rise in popularity since 5Es release and, a few years ago, during the pandemic lockdowns.

As a big D&D fan/player/DM, traversing through other realms and planes is not exactly something I would consider farfetched. WoWs travelling to other worlds like Outland and Argus is similar to D&Ds Spelljammer. Travelling to the Afterlife isn't much different to D&D when travelling to the Nine Hells, or playing through a Sigil campaign (the city of doors, with portals that can go anywhere, even to the realms of the gods). I've always been interested in worldbuilding, not just a game's playable world, but the greater cosmology of it all as well as its history. It is something I would like to see WoW explore more. Just... give us a decent story while they're at it.

Now, do I want great cosmological stories all the time? No, of course not. I want to see the story of Azeroth continue, not just from its playable factions but the world around it as well. I want to see the world around us progress with us and not be left stuck in the past. Things like:

-- Will Silvermoon finally be rebuilt?
-- When the druids of the Barrens have finished healing the land, will they then help the Plaguelands and Ghostlands, particularly the Dead Scar?
-- Will the Exodar be constructed and reformed into an actual city?
-- Will we get some more story about the gnomes, dwarves, tauren and trolls that have been absent for a long while now?
-- Will the goblins finally resettle and make sweeping reparations to Kezan and finally get the chance to visit the Undermine?
-- Will the Night Elves, Worgen and Forsaken retake their homelands, or even found new cities for themselves?
-- Will Thousand Needles stay forever flooded? If so, will the races find a way to inhabit it outside of a giant barge?

[Aucald]

Will you use this same argument when the Before Ones are revealed in 15.0? And when the Apocalyptic One, the villain who scared even the villains who terrified Zovaal, are revealed by the Voider Void Lords in 16.0? But then at which point do we stop adding new layers? When do we realize that it becomes ridiculous and redundant?

The lore was perfectly fine as set up by Chronicles. But people have been saying since forever that Blizzard rushed through the Legion and Old God plots, maybe they shouldn't have turned Argus, Nazjatar, and Ny'alotha into patch zones. Oh wait, Ny'alotha didn't even get that treatment.

So maybe if Blizzard didn't waste Kil'jaeden, Archimonde, Azshara, and N'Zoth in single patches, we wouldn't be where we are now, scraping the bottom of the barrel with all these new shades of Titans and Cosmic monsters.

It's not really *my* argument, it's essentially the reason why the First Ones are a thing. And yeah, it'll be just as valid in 1X.0 or 2X.0 or wherever it might happen, if it does happen, etc., etc. Like I said in my original post, I don't think this kind of scope creep is really necessary, but the developers do, and since it's their story and IP they're basically going to do what they think is best.

I'd also pretty agree on the score as concerns Chronicle and the existing WoW lore, and I think expansions like Dragonflight itself go to prove that WoW doesn't have to go ultra-cosmic to tell impactful stories that garner player interest or create interesting settings for gameplay purposes. WoW is actually better in the general sense when it goes for smaller-scale stories that are more centered on Azeroth and its goings-on, as shown by the general consensus that expansions like WotLK, MoP, and Legion are high points as compared to more "high concept" offerings like TBC, WoD, and Shadowlands. Of course, you've got your outliers, too; which I would say include expansions like Cata and BfA.

[darkoms]

It's highly likely the First Ones exist because there's a desire to telescope WoW's essential depth of field to include other cosmic realms, like they did with the Shadowlands in Shadowlands. The Titans were the creators of the physical universe, and the Legion was essentially their enemies in your standard dualistic fantasy context, and as of Legion we've essentially dealt with both those groups and reached a point where the physical universe no longer has that level of dramatic tension. The First Ones, and the nebulous threat given form by Zovaal's last words, constitute a new wider context for dramatic conflict that also increases the size of WoW's dramatic potential exponentially. YMMV on whether this is actually necessary to further WoW's storylines, really; I don't actually think this is the case, but the developers appear to disagree.

As for addressing the OP as concerns the First Ones' lore, well, it's okay - we don't really have a lot of it yet, so it's kind of hard to judge. There's still the potential for the First Ones to be quite different from the Titan Pantheon even though they share the same role as effective creator-gods, but a lot of that will hinge on what details we get of them going forward. The First Ones as effective Titan v2.0 wouldn't be great, so it really hinges on the part you added "but cooler" and how that makes them different and more interesting than the previous iteration.

All this deepening and creation of new gods and villains is the worst thing that ever happened to wow lore. Shadowlands (not only the addon itself, but all related materials like Grimoire or various interviews) caused literally irreparable damage to the Warcraft lore with all these stupid retcons, revealing secrets in such a miserable way (I love Elune and Danuzer just gave a shit about the whole lore, deciding that it's a great idea to connect the most mysterious character of Warcraft with the Winter Queen, which he came up with in 5 minutes because he is sure that this will add depth to the character he created and make the fans love her more) and so on. It would be much better if we went to the dragon isles right after BFA

[Super Dickmann]

I'd also pretty agree on the score as concerns Chronicle and the existing WoW lore, and I think expansions like Dragonflight itself go to prove that WoW doesn't have to go ultra-cosmic to tell impactful stories that garner player interest or create interesting settings for gameplay purposes. WoW is actually better in the general sense when it goes for smaller-scale stories that are more centered on Azeroth and its goings-on, as shown by the general consensus that expansions like WotLK, MoP, and Legion are high points as compared to more "high concept" offerings like TBC, WoD, and Shadowlands. Of course, you've got your outliers, too; which I would say include expansions like Cata and BfA.

Not speaking to you exclusively here, but the trend of people talking about Legion as if it's a smaller scale story is laughable. The only one with arguably higher stakes was Shadowlands. In Legion we went to space and shut down the Legion, met the highest gods of the setting at the time, offed two of them and the rest told us we were cool dudes. They then all yeeted themselves from the plot. It permanently exhausted the highest instances of the setting short of the void lords. It's a product of the current zeitgeist being 'low scale good', which while true is largely pushed by the same clowns who pushed people to think Shadowlands was a good idea by saying 'oh, factions are done, there's so much cosmic fights to do'. Knee-jerk retardation that doesn't consider why a story works or not and why cosmic stories are usually bs.

[Aucald]

Not speaking to you exclusively here, but the trend of people talking about Legion as if it's a smaller scale story is laughable. The only one with arguably higher stakes was Shadowlands. In Legion we went to space and shut down the Legion, met the highest gods of the setting at the time, offed two of them and they told us we were cool dudes. They then all yeeted themselves from the plot.

Legion Was pretty much the capstone of what I'd call the Azeroth-centric arc, sure; and while I'd say it is much smaller in scale than Shadowlands and all it portends, it is definitely far-reaching as concerns some big concepts like the Titans, the Legion, and so on. But I maintain it was still a high point in the arc of WoW's ongoing narrative, as compared to Shadowlands' ultimate reception.