STOP making the game for the top 0.01% of the players! It’s killing this game

[Glorious Leader]

I mean... the wod proving ground filtered people out of heroics and out of curiosity I tried normal during that... those people needed to be filtered.

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I mean casual players get CE. Yeah its gonna suck for bads but casual just means you have less time to work with.

Yea no they aren't casuals. If you care enough to get CE you aren't a casual.

[Celement]

Yea no they aren't casuals. If you care enough to get CE you aren't a casual.

Again being good or bad at the game isn't a casual or jardcore thing. How long you play is irrelevant to skill level.

[kaelix1]

Yea no they aren't casuals. If you care enough to get CE you aren't a casual.

What exactly is 'casual'? i sincerely believe the word lost it's meaning a long time ago

[Glorious Leader]

Again being good or bad at the game isn't a casual or jardcore thing. How long you play is irrelevant to skill level.

If you care enough to mix man and defeat literally the hardest content in the game you are not a casual. Casual is an attitude. You can try and call yourself that in forum posts to win the internet but it's true.

[Celement]

If you care enough to mix man and defeat literally the hardest content in the game you are not a casual. Casual is an attitude.

I mean no... you are just terrible at the game. If you don't care about anything but flashing lights and sound... why would you even try to retain those people?

You are doomed to lose them to cow clickers.

[w0nderd0g]

For years my friends and family guild were the 4th best raiding guild on the server. We never cleared heroic.

What, where you on a Call of Duty server or something?

[Glorious Leader]

I mean no... you are just terrible at the game. If you don't care about anything but flashing lights and sound... why would you even try to retain those people?

You are doomed to lose them to cow clickers.

As opposed to trying to retain people who will literally complain on a forum about how much they hate x y and z but still consume your mythic raid content? They've proven they'll continue to eat whatever shit you throw at them. Why would you even attempt to placate them especially at the expense of literally anybody else? All expansions it's been we hate systems we just want to log and raid this sucks blizzard. They've continued to raid mythic. Why would you change anything to appease these people who continued to consume your content despite their alleged protests?


You are simple not casual and this desire to identify as one is bizarre. But please tell me more about the "casual" mythic raider. What a joke. If your only response is no you're bad then you really have no argument at all.

[Celement]

As opposed to trying to retain people who will literally complain on a forum about how much they hate x y and z but still consume your mythic raid content? They've proven they'll continue to eat whatever shit you throw at them. Why would you even attempt to placate them especially at the expense of literally anybody else? All expansions it's been we hate systems we just want to log and raid this sucks blizzard. They've continued to raid mythic. Why would you change anything to appease these people who continued to consume your content despite their alleged protests?


You are simple not casual and this desire to identify as one is bizarre. But please tell me more about the "casual" mythic raider. What a joke. If your only response is no you're bad then you really have no argument at all.

I mean they haven't... you can see wows population roughly via api and blizzard has stated in multiple interviews now that their systems failed. I am not a casual myself I play quite a but but you screaming wow can only succeed if it makes itself into a cow clicker mixed with a Korean grind mmo seems folly.

Covenants at least so far seen to be the last dying grasp of the " hero deep I am gonna do what I wanna" crowd. The vocal minority has been exposed so throughly even blizzard managed to notice.

[Glorious Leader]

I mean they haven't... you can see wows population roughly via api and blizzard has stated in multiple interviews now that their systems failed. I am not a casual myself I play quite a but but you screaming wow can only succeed if it makes itself into a cow clicker mixed with a Korean grind mmo seems folly.

Covenants at least so far seen to be the last dying grasp of the " hero deep I am gonna do what I wanna" crowd. The vocal minority has been exposed so throughly even blizzard managed to notice.

Yea they haven't retained people that's clear but the people who've left aren't mythic raiders. The vocal minority aren't the people who left. That's the silent mass. The vocal minority is the people who want to raid log an do nothing else in the game. We've been here before. A couple times actually. Vocal minority complains about having to do x y z (grind frost badges for example) it gets nerfed screwing over everybody else and then we ultimately get WoD. Round and round we go.

Attributing people leaving to "systems" is the dumbest and shallowest observation you (and they) could make. It's roughly akin to saying hey it's a heat wave lets turn on the furnace. It's the dumb idea that offering other people less because some people feel put out will be overall a better experience. And it's not even applied evenly. Like you can make a pretty good argument that Mythic raiding is bad for the game overall for a number of reasons really and people do make that complaint. Should we expect Blizzard will delete mythic raiding? Well that sucks for mythic raiders.

[ceall]

I have the feeling you generalize and haven't actually tried Sepulcher LFR yet. I've cleared every wing since they have been released each week, and it's the same nightmare every single time.

Even IF I would be the worst played ever and contribute 0, then your theory still doesn't work, cause then 24 people still struggle like crazy.

I raid both LFR and in TBC Classic, and I can tell you, LFR is 10 times harder. 3 Rygelon kills, 5 Rygelon wipes. 10 Illidan kills, 0 Illidan wipes. That's one example. And for Illidan it's chill, like very casual, alts in the raid. In LFR, it feels like everyone tryhard like insane. If my dad gamer group from Illidan would try Rygelon, we prolly wipe 20 times before being close to a kill. You can call us bad, but if we can do TBC endbosses but not LFR, it proves LFR is quite hard these days.

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I wish it wasn't, but LFR is the only difficulty I have a chance of doing. I raid on sundays/mondays, that's the only days I can play that long in a row.

You can't compare the matchmade mode (lfr) where noone talks or the only talk is trash talk of today with any pre-lfr content. In lfr you go in and expect at least half of the group to be afking. In vanilla classic, or even bc classic, you expect everyone to lift their weight, even in pugs (mostly also cause it'd hurt ones server reputation if they wouldn't).
That is why lfr feels harder. That's why I'm always preaching that normal mode is "easier" (note the quote marks!) than lfr. Because you simply do not have 15/25 players afk there.
Clear times of normal full clears are faster than the queue and the clear time of a single lfr wing combined, because you have infinitely less slackers there. That is why I can't understand anyone saying "I only do lfr because I can't commit to a schedule". There is no need for a schedule to do normal, in fact your limited playtime is better spent/more efficiently spent doing normal pugs instead of lfr.

[Celement]

Yea they haven't retained people that's clear but the people who've left aren't mythic raiders. The vocal minority aren't the people who left. That's the silent mass. The vocal minority is the people who want to raid log an do nothing else in the game. We've been here before. A couple times actually. Vocal minority complains about having to do x y z (grind frost badges for example) it gets nerfed screwing over everybody else and then we ultimately get WoD. Round and round we go.

Attributing people leaving to "systems" is the dumbest and shallowest observation you (and they) could make. It's roughly akin to saying hey it's a heat wave lets turn on the furnace. It's the dumb idea that offering other people less because some people feel put out will be overall a better experience. And it's not even applied evenly. Like you can make a pretty good argument that Mythic raiding is bad for the game overall for a number of reasons really and people do make that complaint. Should we expect Blizzard will delete mythic raiding? Well that sucks for mythic raiders.

The concept behind covenants was that there existed the silent majority you are citing. Players who just wanted wacky fun with spells who would make new characters to experience that alongside with drawn out grind system for rewards.

Instead we saw the truth peeled back. Wow players as a massive majority don't give two shits about just randomly hitting buttons or doing what they want. They want to succeed at the game.

They tried appealing to bads for the past few expansions. I would like them to try casuals. Though 4 new mythic plus dungeons doesn't give me hope.

[Glorious Leader]

They tried appealing to bads for the past few expansions. I would like them to try casuals. .

Me too. And mythic raiders are not casuals. The fact that you don't understand this is the real problem. The concept behind covenants is to provide a means of alternate advancement which is exactly the same as it was in Legion. And BFA. These were all less and less well executed mind you but the fact that you have no idea why these things exist is quite telling. Appealing to mythic raiders by providing LESS reward for literally everybody in the game so you don't feel put out is not casual friendly. WoD was not casual friendly./

[Azharok]

I dont want anything. I'm telling you why the raid scene is a shitty experience for casuals. You want to label them (or me evidently) as bads. You can't refute that apparently so the only response is derision. it makes little difference wht your opinion is and it doesn't change the fact that its not very casual friendly. And no mythic raiders who play 3 hours a week are not casuals.

It's a shitty experience for everyone. I don't agree with your definition of casual either. I didn't label anyone as bad. I only said that if you screwed up in a raid, and caused a wipe, expect some form of backlash. It's obviously amplified by anonymity. You can play as much or as little as you want per week you'll still get called out for being bad.

Also you stating that raids aren't casual friendly is an opinion not a fact, so like, i don't know what your point is.

You can raid mythic and be casual. I don't see those two things as incompatible.

[Celement]

Me too. And mythic raiders are not casuals. The fact that you don't understand this is the real problem. The concept behind covenants is to provide a means of alternate advancement which is exactly the same as it was in Legion. And BFA. These were all less and less well executed mind you but the fact that you have no idea why these things exist is quite telling. Appealing to mythic raiders by providing LESS reward for literally everybody in the game so you don't feel put out is not casual friendly. WoD was not casual friendly./

Your weird definition of casual as a person unable to succeed aside... how is adding content for other groups of players taking content from other people...?

All the more so since all mythic is content wise is a 1-2 new abilities and scaling...?

[Glorious Leader]

You can raid mythic and be casual. I don't see those two things as incompatible.

They are 1000% incompatible. It's like saying I can win the world series as a beer league soft ball player.

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Your weird definition of casual as a person unable to succeed aside... how is adding content for other groups of players taking content from other people...?

All the more so since all mythic is content wise is a 1-2 new abilities and scaling...?

No you're definition of casual is weird. It's based solely on how much time you decide to invest in the game and not the actual meaning of the word casual which I can't actually post because the bots who moderate this forum will ding me for it.

Since raiding as a whole is not casual friendly content and the emphasis on it is even less casual friendly we aren't just talking about mythic and viewing this as anything other than holistically is bad faith arguing. Yea the time they invest into mythic is a waste but maybe not much. However an entire game that is RAID CENTRIC is the real problem.

[Azharok]

They are 1000% incompatible. It's like saying I can win the world series as a beer league soft ball player.

Except there is no barrier to entry for mythic raiding .... so your comparison doesn't work.

[Glorious Leader]

Except there is no barrier to entry for mythic raiding .... so your comparison doesn't work.

LOL oh wait you're being serious... I mean ANYBODY can be babe ruth right? Seriously casual hall of famers hahahahaha. I mean we can test this out. I'm in the game right now. I'm not in a mythic raid. Please provide the steps on how to get into one.

[Azharok]

LOL oh wait you're being serious... I mean ANYBODY can be babe ruth right? Seriously casual hall of famers hahahahaha. I mean we can test this out. I'm in the game right now. I'm not in a mythic raid. Please provide the steps on how to get into one.

You're moving the post, I never said you'd kill a boss in mythic raiding, I said there is no barrier to entry. At most you join or form a guild that raids mythic, boom you're a mythic raider.

[Glorious Leader]

. At most you join or form a guild that raids mythic, boom you're a mythic raider.

I mean you're missing more qute a few but right off the bat you just provided one so yea no barriers to entry is bullshut.

[Spazzix]

They also nerf things into the ground over time.
In the world series comparison, it'd be like the pitcher takes 10mph off their pitch everytime you get a strike. At some point they actually just put it on a tee in front of you. Now, you can still argue that a casual enough player will have a hard time hitting the ball, but at some point you just have to say that maybe this isn't the game for them if even that is too difficult (the latter portion there maybe leaning more towards inability to progress even normal raid late into a patch)