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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    That is an excellent point, given how often they use such actions to drive a wedge between fromer friends turning them into enemies, and yet this.

    The problem is the whitewashing. They want to tell a good story, but fail to make realistic steps.

    It's not that Sylvanas joining the horde is impossible even after Lirtah, it's her loving the horde that is utter nonsense.

    At least for a while we should have seen some form of hate or a sequence of events that forced her with thehorde powerful because of a worse threat or greater hatred presing down.

    Also, Sylvanas working with the jailer who is responsible for Arthas and her first state and hatred, is just STUPID without painting her as fractured and broken herself in a clear obvious way.

    But you wouldn't do that because she is a pet fave.. which ends up making it all rather silly.

    @OwenBurton - thanks for the summary, well compiled, wish you or someone like you had done the Illidan book similarly... the leaker literally just posted the end result without the context. The problem with the story isn't Golden, sounds like she did a good job showing the depth of emotion and hat goes wrongwithh Sylvanas.

    I don't think she would have been allowed to show Sylvanas as crazy and broken in an obsious way, which is exacty what she should be after going through that experience. Powerful as they are, largely the undead, and DKs should be crazy, or very untrustworthily unstable - however if you want ot make them sane enough, you have to write a compelling route to sanity in the face of the horro of what they go through.

    Not warcraft though, you go throughhell, andyou're able to make wise, just and sane decisions just like that.
    You're welcome! Again, I quite liked the novel, although I wish they would have gone into the Windrunner sisters' relationships a bit more, especially after their last meeting. I never supported Sylvanas myself during the war, and yet, after reading the novel, I can understand her perspective - she sought to create a better universe. And she was not wrong in that the Shadowlands was flawed, look at Bastion for example. But her solution was equally flawed.

    What I don't understand is this though -- was Sylvanas really condemned by the Arbiter to the Maw after her death, and is it true that families are indeed separated in the afterlife, or are those also illusions by the valkyr?
    "You see, there is balance in all things. Wisdom etched in our very fur: Black and white. Darkness and light. When the last emperor hid our land from the rest of the world, he also preserved...our ancient enemy, the mantid. So it is with your Alliance and your Horde. They are not strong despite one another; they are strong BECAUSE of one another. You mistake your greatest strength for weakness. Do you see this?"

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by OwenBurton View Post
    You're welcome! Again, I quite liked the novel, although I wish they would have gone into the Windrunner sisters' relationships a bit more, especially after their last meeting. I never supported Sylvanas myself during the war, and yet, after reading the novel, I can understand her perspective - she sought to create a better universe. And she was not wrong in that the Shadowlands was flawed, look at Bastion for example. But her solution was equally flawed.

    What I don't understand is this though -- was Sylvanas really condemned by the Arbiter to the Maw after her death, and is it true that families are indeed separated in the afterlife, or are those also illusions by the valkyr?
    Then Christie did the job well. THe whole point of both Illidan and Sylvannas novels were to explore the complexity of character and emotions that led to the actions we saw. They don't have to make perfect sense, but underlying key motivations and showing how A eventually became P helps a lot.

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by OwenBurton View Post
    What I don't understand is this though -- was Sylvanas really condemned by the Arbiter to the Maw after her death, and is it true that families are indeed separated in the afterlife, or are those also illusions by the valkyr?
    No, it's pretty obvious he brought her there because she was right next to the Valks that can ferry souls. It's the same gig as the Jailer telling her that to the Arbiter she's morally equivalent to Arthas. Arthas wasn't condemned to the Maw either, but he used Arthas's presence there to sway her. It's the same as with the prophecy that ultimately sways her, which he set up by way of Mueh'zala. The book version of the Bald Man is a smooth operator. A shame he isn't in the fucking game, he'd be a pretty solid villain. Ditto he whispers to the Valks before hand, which Sylvanas herself remarks upon but forgets during her moral outrage later. His criticisms of the Shadowlands are valid, but curated to Sylvanas as the target audience and he only uses cases that'd support his point.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

    Tinkers will be the next Class confirmed.

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    Then Christie did the job well. THe whole point of both Illidan and Sylvannas novels were to explore the complexity of character and emotions that led to the actions we saw. They don't have to make perfect sense, but underlying key motivations and showing how A eventually became P helps a lot.
    One of the novel's greatest strengths is also in a way one of its greatest weakness - Sylvanas and her close relationship with Lirath. I mean, before the novel, Sylvanas' links to her living past has always been centered around Alleria and Vereesa, her two sisters, and their necklaces, not a brother whom she has NEVER so much as mentioned in-game or in the novels (for the very most part).

    Therefore, this closeness and adoration for Lirath, while understandable, also seems somewhat new and arguably a bit of a retcon in its own right.

    Something inside her shattered. “You are a fool, Anduin Wrynn. And you have made one of me as well. Have you been angling to get my sympathy this entire time, to trick me into releasing you? To make me think that I have lost my perspective? That I would turn on the Jailer just because your face resembles someone I once loved?”

    She shook her head angrily. “I am done,” she said. “I am done with all of this. I leave you to your fate, Anduin.”

    There’s my Lady Moon!

    And there’s my Little Lord Sun!


    Fury made her tremble, and fury gave her speed as she stalked out. He called after her, but she did not halt. Did not look back.

    If she did, she was afraid that everything she was would come apart.
    Last edited by OwenBurton; 2022-04-25 at 05:30 PM.
    "You see, there is balance in all things. Wisdom etched in our very fur: Black and white. Darkness and light. When the last emperor hid our land from the rest of the world, he also preserved...our ancient enemy, the mantid. So it is with your Alliance and your Horde. They are not strong despite one another; they are strong BECAUSE of one another. You mistake your greatest strength for weakness. Do you see this?"

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by OwenBurton View Post
    Therefore, this closeness and adoration for Lirath, while understandable, also seems somewhat new and arguably a bit of a retcon in its own right.
    The bits with her brother were well handled and her focus on Anduin being projection for a reconciliation with Lirath she was never able to resolve in a situation where she's completely in control works well enough to explain why she cares so much about Anduin. Its problem is two-fold. One that the only reason that we need an explanation for her fixation on Anduin is because that fixation exists at all, which was always very tortured and the book does no favours with that execrable scene in Dalaran where everyone gawks at how wise and pleasant Our Treasure is. Second is that because not just Sylvanas but everyone inexpicably gravitates around Anduin the fact that for Sylvanas this actually now has some meaning for her own character rather than serving only to big him up only makes it worse how everyone else acts like his ballwashers without any of the Freudian reasoning that Sylvanas and Genn have.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

    Tinkers will be the next Class confirmed.

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    The bits with her brother were well handled and her focus on Anduin being projection for a reconciliation with Lirath she was never able to resolve in a situation where she's completely in control works well enough to explain why she cares so much about Anduin. Its problem is two-fold. One that the only reason that we need an explanation for her fixation on Anduin is because that fixation exists at all, which was always very tortured and the book does no favours with that execrable scene in Dalaran where everyone gawks at how wise and pleasant Our Treasure is. Second is that because not just Sylvanas but everyone inexpicably gravitates around Anduin the fact that for Sylvanas this actually now has some meaning for her own character rather than serving only to big him up only makes it worse how everyone else acts like his ballwashers without any of the Freudian reasoning that Sylvanas and Genn have.
    Lirath must have been a saint like figure with a heart of gold similar to Anduin to actually cause Syvlanas to project on him. Would be nice to tell his story - or maybe that was it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by OwenBurton View Post

    Therefore, this closeness and adoration for Lirath, while understandable, also seems somewhat new and arguably a bit of a retcon in its own right.
    It is understandable if her love for him was so deep, that she would just ever talk of him after the event, I'm fine with that explanation as to why we have never seen him being mentioned. They get away with things like that because characters and periods have so many gaps they can tell all sorts of stories for them. They also state that is the reason they don't get too specific a lot of the times.

    To be honest, I would prefer if they did, detail is good, it shows a well thought out plan etc, but only when you do your homework properly and write very well, otherwise it will expose your errors later on and you won't be able to do things like what they have done.. Still, even with some of the most detailed stories we get, there are enough gaps to tell all kinds of things for the creative mind.

  7. #67
    Seems to me from reading all this is that Anduin needs to go.

  8. #68
    Firstly I wish they would bring back Knaak to write for warcraft. His novels while not perfect atleast expanded the universe rather than shrinking it to a handful of characters. some the best content and expansions have been directly pulled from the books he wrote.

    Two there was no chance of this book salvaging the story, none of the characters motivations make a lick of sense. The Narrow focus of these characters has left the wider story ignored. Finally the writers biases come through in her writing and her justifications for characters actions are kinda twisted.

    The whole premises that if you don't get to spend your afterlife with your loved ones then the system is flawed is stupid logic. What if your loved ones don't want to spend eternity with you because you became a monster. Or Perhaps you were a molester or abusive towards your loved ones, should you get to spend your Afterlife with them because you loved them? Fact is some people are monsters and they should go to a special place in hell for monsters just like them.

    The sooner the story moves away from Anduin, Sylvanas and Shadowlands and we never see or hear from them again the better.
    Last edited by angrywithmygod; 2022-04-27 at 06:43 AM.

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Mace View Post
    Lirath must have been a saint like figure with a heart of gold similar to Anduin to actually cause Syvlanas to project on him. Would be nice to tell his story - or maybe that was it.

    - - - Updated - - -
    Yes, Lirath was perhaps the best of the Windrunners, in that he merely tried to protect those he loved, and died doing so. He had no special skill or talent particularly, yet he tried to help protect his friends and his family. Kind of like...um, Neville, I guess. That is truly admirable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xilurm View Post
    Seems to me from reading all this is that Anduin needs to go.
    But Turalyon would be the one to take his place, and he is not universally beloved either. Perhaps they could try an "Alliance Council" or something, I'm not sure! Sylvanas is such a controversial character, but I really liked this tribute to her!
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxWw-6Ipyuc
    Last edited by OwenBurton; 2022-04-27 at 06:59 PM.
    "You see, there is balance in all things. Wisdom etched in our very fur: Black and white. Darkness and light. When the last emperor hid our land from the rest of the world, he also preserved...our ancient enemy, the mantid. So it is with your Alliance and your Horde. They are not strong despite one another; they are strong BECAUSE of one another. You mistake your greatest strength for weakness. Do you see this?"

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