STOP making the game for the top 0.01% of the players! It’s killing this game

[Azharok]

This is an amazingly stupid statement.

This whole forum is stupid if we are being honest. The threads not the individuals.

[VMSmith]

This whole forum is stupid if we are being honest. The threads not the individuals.

I want to include the individuals, including myself Forums are the stupidest waste of time

[Rollo]

Based on that logic, mythic is just LFR with a few new abilities.....Lets not pretend the only difference between clearing mythic and clearing LFR is "a few new abilities"

I think his point was from the design aspect. The difference between each difficulty is an ability or two (or more) and tuning, and for the final boss, a potential extra secret mythic portion. From the design aspect, not much more work needs to go into making a mythic raid when the heroic version has a template to build upon, which was built upon the normal template.

From a raid clearing aspect, you are 100% right. The difference between Mythic and the rest isn't just "a few new abilities."

Raids aren't designed from Mythic down, they're designed Normal up.

[arkanon]

I think his point was from the design aspect. The difference between each difficulty is an ability or two (or more) and tuning, and for the final boss, a potential extra secret mythic portion. From the design aspect, not much more work needs to go into making a mythic raid when the heroic version has a template to build upon, which was built upon the normal template.

From a raid clearing aspect, you are 100% right. The difference between Mythic and the rest isn't just "a few new abilities."

Raids aren't designed from Mythic down, they're designed Normal up.

Im VERY glad you made that final comment - im not a wow dev, but thats not how i believe it is done, and they may have confirmed this at some stage. But its logical to design from the top down, not the other way around. I think thats why normal and even LFR can be quite daunting for some at times, because they still try to retain that core "feel" or design of the encounter from mythic, and that really doesnt translate well to easier difficulties sometimes.

Ill explain why. They have added progressively EASIER difficulties, not harder. When they finally added LFR, they simply toned everything DOWN for it. When they added Flex (now normal) tehy did exactly the same - took normal (now heroic) and toned it DOWN.

[arkanon]

You are not wrong but they don't have to be either. It depends on how they are run. You can argue that Elitist Jerks back in the day was over-moderated. It probably was. It wasn't a waste of time though if you had an interest in what was being discussed. It was focused and useful for its audience.

It was about as social as the game is today in many ways. Which, if you think about it and consider its influence, may be suggestive.

Over moderation is the fastest way to kill a forum off. Everyone getting banned for the most asinine reasons, mods who endlessly side with a certain group of users who share the same opinion/narrative, etc etc. Its always sad to see a forum go from tens of thousands or even hundreds of thousands of users down to a few dozen regular posters. It wasnt the first, and it would seem it wont be the last.

One forum I frequent used to have over 200,000 users online at a time, and now hasnt broken 200 in a few years. I still enjoy it sometimes, but for the most part its dead, and that makes me sad at times. To be fair, in some cases its directly linked to the popularity of the forums main topic - for example - i doubt there are any alice in chains forums really pumping right now. Other times, it really is entirely on the mods shoulders.

[Goatfish]

Raids aren't designed from Mythic down, they're designed Normal up.

Normal up, sure. Also with the assumption of 20 people though. As a guild who is still progging heroic for many reasons, one of the primary reasons being that our normal raid group is 10-13 people, and in order to make the fights significantly easier we've created a sort of alliance with another guild so that we can at least prog one night a week. It's not even as if we are pulling in carries, but just having 6-8 mediocre players inflating our body count makes interrupts, soaks, dispels, and mistakes way WAY more manageable.

I think it's something that would need to be fixed on a case by case basis as far as flex raids go, as it's pretty obvious that a smaller number of people is going to put far more pressure on each individual to perform better. The issues with fight design aren't really solved by just increasing or decreasing the bosses health bar, but that's how Bliz has chosen to handle it. Anduin is probably the biggest offender right now with 4 dispels needed to leave the shadow realm, less people to inflate healing numbers on making the barrier harder to pop, less potential cc making the adds harder to control, and less potential ranged targets making the intermission phase explosions absurd to deal with. Even something as simple as less people targeted more often with stars hurts dps potential a lot more than in a larger group. SoF seems a much bigger offender in this regard than either Nathria or SoD with a heavy half of the bosses being made far easier by just having more bodies.

[VMSmith]

One forum I frequent used to have over 200,000 users online at a time, and now hasnt broken 200 in a few years. I still enjoy it sometimes, but for the most part its dead, and that makes me sad at times.

I've been part of a number of forums over the last 20 years or so and only one of them was really worthwhile. And, just like yours, it died out over time. It doesn't even exist any longer But, it was an atheist forum and how many ways can you realistically say "yeah, I need evidence" Loved the social parts of the forum though. Even the ostensibly social parts of MMOC are awful ... it's all a game from top to bottom to prove you are right and show the other person how they're wrong/awful/delusional/whatever. The only thread here I'm finding useful currently is the Ukraine thread because I get some actual worthwhile information from it about what's going on.

You are not wrong but they don't have to be either. It depends on how they are run.

You are absolutely right. I feel MMOC actually needs more moderation, for tone and aggressiveness. As I say above, there's just too much gamesmanship and obvious trolling going on that just tiptoes up to what's considered actionable by the current team, but doesn't quite go over their line. It's frustrating to be arguing when you want to be discussing, but posters here seem to mostly be more interested in scoring those internet points than having a fruitful discussion that ends with "I still disagree, but I see your point".

To make this post somewhat on-topic: The audience WoW is aiming for is likely shifting over time. Vanilla really was more oriented towards casual players with a niche of raiding. TBC was more raid-oriented when they realized people enjoyed that aspect, but it still contained world content. MoP was, IMO, a casual/solo/world players' oyster. WoD was the pinnacle of raid-logging. SL is notable for doubling down on pushing everyone into organized content or go away.

None of that is aimed towards any 0.01% of players, it's just philosophical decisions on what the developers want WoW to be at that time. Either the current philosophy appeals to you or it doesn't, this too shall pass.

[MoanaLisa]

You are absolutely right.

I want to be clear here. There was no intent to derail the conversation into discussion of how forums work or fail. I'm going to delete the post so that this doesn't go further. Let's all get back to deciding for ourselves just who the game is designed for .

Thanks.

[Ilookfly]

All content is easy a few months after release. If you are wiping in heroic you are exactly were you are supposed to be. Your argument is literally "balance the game after me cus I want gear I haven't earned". Stop crying.

[ek0zu]

I am fine with difficulty, i actually welcome it but i don't like grinds, as a casual i don't have all the time of the world to "prepare" my character for endgame. It is fine to have to "study" for the encounters, but doing all the prerequisites to play the content that you like, is hilarious. You end up all the time being -miles- behind the curve and always trying to catch up. It is a vicious cycle that i personally can't get out of that loop.

I prefer Monster Hunter's approach where all bufffs are easily acquired while you explore the terrain and the gear is again acquired by slaying big monsters for phat loot and that's it, the fun comes from actually trying to slay the monster and overcoming the obstacles that you face during the fight. The same applies for pvp.

[MrFrag]

If everything would be a piece of cake, would you play that game?

[arkanon]

If everything would be a piece of cake, would you play that game?

Depends entirely on the game/genre. I often play sports games on quite low difficulty, and still enjoy it, just for the spectacle of it all, or because i do not understand all the rules well enough to be competitive on higher difficulties. I sometimes play RTS on low difficulty just to get through the game and experience it, as otherwise i just wouldnt have the time. I recently played an extremely simple game on xbox gamepass, sadly i dont remember the name of it - goop, gloop, gunk - something like that - gunk sounds right. It was VERY easy, and very short, but i enjoyed every minute of playing it while my kids watched / enjoyed it. To be clear i have a rolling sub for gamepass ult anyway, so it didnt cost me anything additional, and i believe it was quite a low cost game anyway.

Would i enjoy an MMO if everything was just handed out like candy? No, i would not. To be fair, PART of that reason is most if not all of the "easy" mmos have pretty unacceptable (to me) monetization. But in general, I enjoy world content because its pure autopilot trash, which is sometimes nice, but i wouldnt want raiding / dungeons to be a total pushover, that just doesnt interest me.

[Shakzor]

If everything would be a piece of cake, would you play that game?

There are people that enjoy having absolutely 0 challenge of any kind and just get rewards rained onto them (who am i to judge what they do in their free time tho and it can be quite fun at times, like an occasional Kirby game).
What's odd is to try to pretend as if that should be the default for everyone and that the game once was like that (it was even less casual friendly back then with the 500 attunements and mindless timesinks), rather than admitting "ok, it changed in a direction that's not for me" and moving on, like what a sane person would do.
Another thing that seems to be a popular argument is "i pay money, so i deserve to get everything how it works for ME!" which is also just delusional and entitled.

[arkanon]

There are people that enjoy having absolutely 0 challenge of any kind and just get rewards rained onto them (who am i to judge what they do in their free time tho).
What's odd is to try to pretend as if that should be the default for everyone and that the game once was like that (it was even less casual friendly back then with the 500 attunements and mindless timesinks), rather than admitting "ok, it changed in a direction that's not for me" and moving on, like what a sane person would do.
Another thing that seems to be a popular argument is "i pay money, so i deserve to get everything how it works for ME!" which is also just delusional and entitled.

I just watched a mind blowing video by KiraTV reporting on an incident where some dude went absolutely postal because Elden Ring is "too hard" and anyone who enjoys it is a "no life loser throwing THOUSANDS of hours into the game" and "none have family or friends and this is all they have"................All this because the game is too hard for him. Like holy shit man, take a deep breath. Ultimately someone challenged him on it, so he literally resorted to doxing the other you-tuber, and LITERALLY CALLING THIER MUM to say what a naughty boy he is being. You honestly cant make this shit up - All because he isnt very good at a video game and finds it too hard.

[Nalam the Venom]

Making something so hard only a small portion of players (the people who are ACTUALLY FUCKING GOOD at the game) is not "catering" to them. It's throwing them a bone so they don't get bored and quit

I dono what kind of atmosphere it is in your guild while raiding, But i got tired of the berrating, Name-Calling and preasure in legion not touched a raid since.

Honestly dono why you’d call such a thing ”a good game”

The sooner they move completely away from raids as the means of power progression, The better.

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If everything would be a piece of cake, would you play that game?

I would and i do.

Currently play a game where the current grind content is killing an enemy that takes roughly 30 sec to kill, hope for loot then, out, Reset and go again.

Currently at like 1600 runs since the dungeon released a month ago.

[arkanon]

I dono what kind of atmosphere it is in your guild while raiding, But i got tired of the berrating, Name-Calling and preasure in legion not touched a raid since.

Honestly dono why you’d call such a thing ”a good game”

The sooner they move completely away from raids as the means of power progression, The better.

Thats a YOU problem though (or your guildies, to be more specific, but you picked that guild). I raided with a mixed guild that fluctuated between 40 and 60% females, and things were extremely civil most of the time. We got in heated arguments, but no name calling or childish bullshit like that. We raided together with the same core of roughly 15 for over a decade. I was best man at one of their weddings, and we are still mostly in touch with each other.

Im not saying we are the "typical" guild, i dont even know what that is, and i HAVE experienced what you describe, but only for like.....1 raid, MAYBE 2 before bailing. This was always during downtime after completing raids with my main guild, so im not saying it doesnt exist, im just saying a solution exists.

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I would and i do.

Currently play a game where the current grind content is killing an enemy that takes roughly 30 sec to kill, hope for loot then, out, Reset and go again.

Currently at like 1600 runs since the dungeon released a month ago.

What game? I mean if you want to kill the same mob 60 times a day thats up to you, but i find that mind blowing.

[Nalam the Venom]

What game? I mean if you want to kill the same mob 60 times a day thats up to you, but i find that mind blowing.

Blade & Soul.

[Nite92]

Not sure if it would be better but really how many people would care? Not many.

At least 70k-80k people have killed a mythic boss. Considering this amount plus the rwf twitch exposure, this seems easily worth it.

Also if you think legion, bfa, or SL was "made for mythic raiders" you are delusional, because all those power grinds fucked them over the most out of the entire playerbase.

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Why is end game content so hard? I’m seeing people having a hard time to pug normal raids. Is this the game that most people thrive in? The “average” are the soul of the community, this game is becoming depressing.

I remember the time in which the most amount of people were actually enjoying the game, and the community was thriving, the content was extremely easy with the exception of four bosses (Mimiron, Anub, Yogg-3/0 and LK heroic) during WotLK. When Wrath was released the hardest boss was Sartharion +3 Drakes, any decently organized group could kill it, I know we did it.

I remember really good top 1000 guilds wiping on heroic in 9.0, even after trying Beta on supposedly easy bosses on heroic. Is this the game that you REALLY want? A month after the Jailer was killed, 17 guilds have killed it. What psychos do we have working at Blizzard at the moment?

People take satisfaction in knowing that they’ve “beaten” the game by defeating the hardest encounters. That’s not even a dream to most players. Make the highest gear attainable by all within three weeks of release of patch; The top players already have the titles, mounts, achievements and glory. Stop licking their boots so hard. Game is in a terrible state. I remember Sunwell Plateau was the most brutal raid at the time, even the trash was a nightmare. They nerfed everything by 30% (don’t recall exactly) allowing most people to do it WELL ahead of Wrath. That should happen three weeks after the first kill across ALL difficulties. And just tune down bosses… What is this? I’m typing this as I leave of a heroic diefest on Anduin, and people weren’t awful.

I’m glad that popular youtubers including Asmongold are starting to point this out. You’ve made the game for 200 people, congratulations.

There is an audience, tens of thousands of players are engaging with it.
Whenever I read a post like this, it always feels like you guys are just mad that your heroic or normal gear isn't the best in the game.

[VMSmith]

If everything would be a piece of cake, would you play that game?

Two of the best-selling and most popular games in the world are Animal Crossing and Mario Kart, so yes, lots of people would. Mario Kart even rewards with you better items the more you suck at it. Being good is its own reward.

[Nite92]

There are people that enjoy having absolutely 0 challenge of any kind and just get rewards rained onto them (who am i to judge what they do in their free time tho and it can be quite fun at times, like an occasional Kirby game).
What's odd is to try to pretend as if that should be the default for everyone and that the game once was like that (it was even less casual friendly back then with the 500 attunements and mindless timesinks), rather than admitting "ok, it changed in a direction that's not for me" and moving on, like what a sane person would do.
Another thing that seems to be a popular argument is "i pay money, so i deserve to get everything how it works for ME!" which is also just delusional and entitled.

But there is content for those casual guys. It's just not all the content

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Which is still infinitely easier than saurfang or the air ship event. You are objectively wrong but want to defend the current system. And no it doesn't depend Arcane mage now is vastly more complex than arcane icc and thats probably the most brain dead spec I can think of currently.

The current system works just fine, if you just realise, everything is optional, cuz it's a game.