April 19 Tinker Reveal

[huth]

Isn't a protagonist also typically the hero of the story?

No. Hero and protagonist are not the same thing. A hero is often also a protagonist, but a protagonist is often not a hero.

[Ielenia]

Incorrect. Chen Stormstout was a major lore character

He was not a major character. Major characters were Thrall, Vol'jin, Jaina, Tyrande, Malfurion, Sylvanas, etc. Characters present in the lore and were constantly and actively participating and sometimes even spear-heading major events in the lore.

Chen Stormstout didn't exist as a NPC in WoW until the Mists of Pandaria came along, and in those eight years of WoW until MoP, you only had, AFAIK, four obscure mentions of Chen AND the pandaren together.

[Teriz]

You can't say it did considering none of those "roots and foundations" even existed in Warcraft 3. We had literally zero lore about the religion(s) the pandaren followed. We had literally zero lore about the pandaren's homeland. We had literally zero lore about their culture.

Wow. Just by reading the Brewmaster lore in WC3 you get a gist of them being affable warriors willing to share with outsiders, and help strangers. You get even more of that from Chen’s interactions with Rexxar, Gazlowe, and Thrall.

Cool. And what was the context of that? I mean, without context, that's like saying that mentioning Garrosh in the developer interviews for MoP means that the monk class is based off Garrosh.

The context was him discussing why the team went with a dragon class, and what influenced them. He mentioned Alexstraza and HotS specifically.

Anyway, when it gets to the point where you’re ignoring the developer’s own statements, and sheer reality (Chen not being a major character), it’s time to fit this back and forth to end.

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No. Hero and protagonist are not the same thing. A hero is often also a protagonist, but a protagonist is often not a hero.

I said “typically”.

[Nightshade711]

Incorrect. Chen Stormstout was a major lore character who helped Thrall secure Orgrimmar from Proudmoore and the Alliance. He, along with Rexxar became champions of the Horde. In addition, he came from a place called "Pandaria".

After that, he was good to go.

Chen a 'major lore character' lmao.
He was an optional companion for a single part of the Rexxar campaign. I don't even think him helping Thrall secure Orgrimmar is even canon because of the fact that he's an optional companion.

Also Pandaria wasn't mentioned before the announcement of MoP. Don't even think it was included in the april fools joke that the shado-pan were inspired from.

[Teriz]

Chen a 'major lore character' lmao.
He was an optional companion for a single part of the Rexxar campaign. I don't even think him helping Thrall secure Orgrimmar is even canon because of the fact that he's an optional companion.

Uh, Pandaren we’re the most demanded for race in WoW before their appreance, in large part because of Chen.

Also Pandaria wasn't mentioned before the announcement of MoP. Don't even think it was included in the april fools joke that the shado-pan were inspired from.

Pandaria was mentioned in the WC3 Brewmaster lore.

http://classic.battle.net/war3/neutr...ewmaster.shtml

[Nightshade711]

Uh, Pandaren we’re the most demanded for race in WoW before their appreance, in large part because of Chen.

What does this have to do with the fact that Chen was an optional companion for a single part of the Rexxar campaign?

Pandaria was mentioned in the WC3 Brewmaster lore.

http://classic.battle.net/war3/neutr...ewmaster.shtml

Fair enough

[Teriz]

What does this have to do with the fact that Chen was an optional companion for a single part of the Rexxar campaign?

He became a huge lore figure from that campaign, and hordes of players wanted to play a Pandaren and go to Pandaria because of him.

[Nightshade711]

He became a huge lore figure from that campaign, and hordes of players wanted to play a Pandaren and go to Pandaria because of him.

I don’t think you understand what the term “huge lore figure” means.

If his part in the Rexxar campaign wasn’t canon because he’s an optional hero… was he even an actual lore character at that point?

Weird how hordes of players wanted Chen but the reception behind MoP’s announcement wasn’t good because people said it felt like Kung fu panda

[Teriz]

I don’t think you understand what the term “huge lore figure” means.

If his part in the Rexxar campaign wasn’t canon because he’s an optional hero… was he even an actual lore character at that point?

Weird how hordes of players wanted Chen but the reception behind MoP’s announcement wasn’t good because people said it felt like Kung fu panda

Uh, it was canon.

And the ones calling it Kung Fu Panda were the vocal minority. MoP is fondly remembered as one of the best expansions for a reason. It isn’t because a bunch of idiots started playing Warcraft games during TBC and the Lich King and didn’t know squat about WC lore.

[Ielenia]

Wow. Just by reading the Brewmaster lore in WC3 you get a gist of them being affable warriors willing to share with outsiders, and help strangers. You get even more of that from Chen’s interactions with Rexxar, Gazlowe, and Thrall.

Which says nothing about their religions, culture, and homeland location. Or can you point out anything that points to the August Celestials?

The context was him discussing why the team went with a dragon class, and what influenced them. He mentioned Alexstraza and HotS specifically.

But that doesn't mean that the class was based on her.

Anyway, when it gets to the point where you’re ignoring the developer’s own statements, and sheer reality

Says the guy who ignores the developer's own statements about how the dracthyr not being actual dragons but hybrids...

Chen not being a major character

He wasn't until MoP, that's a fact, though. "Major characters" aren't kept in obscurity and never mentioned in any meaningful manner for eight years.

it’s time to fit this back and forth to end.

Depends. Are you going to stop using falsehoods, lies and bad faith arguments?

[Eurhetemec]

I think it is more important for a class to bring a new theme and be distinctive from other classes, rather than being based on some already existing character or ability.

DH is meh, tbh. It is purely based on Illidan, but has no original theme - it partially borrows it from warlocks. maybe this is a reason why DH is so boring and has only 2 specs - it was purely fanservice class.

Sort of destroyed you own argument there by claiming the first then trying to make DHes are "meh" and "so boring", because the actual players of the game clearly don't agree with you at all.

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There's Lorewalker Cho, there's Russel Brower, there's Hearthsinger Forresten...

The point is that, despite us knowing that Chen Stormstout existed, I'm willing to bet that the overwhelming majority of players only found out about him. Because he never, ever appeared personally in WoW until the MoP expansion. Until then, the only mentions of Chen and pandaren in general, until then, are of only 3:
• Chen's Empty Keg during vanilla WoW;
• A portrait of a pandaren;
• A mention of the pandaren.

And going in details: back in Vanilla WoW, quest and quest-starting items didn't have a glowing outline, or shined, or even have the big golden exclamation point above them. They were literally normal items that you'd only realize they're important if you hovered your mouse over them and saw the hand mouse icon changing to exclamation or cog. So, just by looking, you wouldn't know this random keg that spawns in random spots in the Barrens back in the day was a quest-starting item.

As for the portrait of a pandaren, it's one of many possible rewards you could get from the fishing daily back in The Burning Crusade expansion.

And as for the mentions of pandaren, it's one of many possible conversations between two children NPCs in Stormwind as they walk around the city.

The point is: Chen was not prominent. He was obscure as heck.

You seem to be ignoring WC3 which is really making your argument seem very strange and irrational.

As for bards, Hearthsinger Forresten is a homophobic stereotype (not of the hateful kind of homophobia, but the sniggering kind), Lorewalker Cho is cool but not a "music bard", he's the "Loremaster" archetype which is kind of it's own thing, Russel Brower isn't a real character all, just a tribute NPC to a Blizzard composer (and we're lucky he's still in the game lol only thanks to Brower not being a perv I guess).

[Ielenia]

You seem to be ignoring WC3 which is really making your argument seem very strange and irrational.

How many players, percentage-wise, knew of Warcraft 3 well enough to know the existence of Chen Stormstout, around the time of Cataclysm? 80%? 50%? 30%? 15%?

As for bards, Hearthsinger Forresten is a homophobic stereotype

That's a hot take. Explain.

Lorewalker Cho is cool but not a "music bard", he's the "Loremaster" archetype which is kind of it's own thing,

He's a "music bard". He literally sings during an event in Krasarang Wilds.

Russel Brower isn't a real character all,

He is a "real character". You can see him in at least two separate places, and in both places he helps you fight.

[Eurhetemec]

How many players, percentage-wise, knew of Warcraft 3 well enough to know the existence of Chen Stormstout, around the time of Cataclysm? 80%? 50%? 30%? 15%?

No idea, but it was sizeable. Basically everyone who'd played WC3 knew who he was.

That's a hot take. Explain.

Someone needs to learn the word "please" but okay lol. It is not remotely a hot take.

Anyway, all the gear he drops is cheap "schoolboy giggles" gay innuendos - because "bards are gay lol" and being gay is inherently funny, right? If you're twelve maybe:

Rainbow Girdle (this should be obvious)
Songbird Blouse (oh a woman's piece of clothing, that's "funny" because he's "feminine because he's gay lol" - not my view, but definitely the view of whoever did that - also songbird is normally applied to women)
Piccolo of the Flaming Fire ("flaming" being the operative word sigh)
Woolies of the Prancing Minstrel ("prancing" because he's so camp, right?)
Star of Mystaria (this is fine, Balnazzar drops it as well)

https://www.wowhead.com/npc=10558/he...nger-forresten

So we have a bunch of gay innuendo, the assumption that being gay is inherently funny, very stereotypical presentation of gay = feminine, and of course again "bards = gay". If you think this is someone Blizzard are going to draw attention to or be inspired by, you are very much mistaken. It's kind of surprising his gear has survived the great purge. Any one of the items might be fine, but all of them together is pretty clear. To be clear again, this isn't homophobia of the violent or really nasty kind, just the giggling schoolboy thinks being gay is a joke kind.

And let's be clear, whilst bards are kind of hip/cool now, in 2022, back in 2004 "bards r gay lolz" was a very typical opinion from the boneheaded kind of MMORPG or TT RPG player. And all this stuff date from then.

He's a "music bard". He literally sings during an event in Krasarang Wilds.

Fair enough, I didn't know about that event.

He is a "real character". You can see him in at least two separate places, and in both places he helps you fight.

Sorry I don't agree. He's a simple tribute character to a composer. He's not a part of WoW lore or something.

So Lorewalker Cho is a real bard I'd say, but he's pretty much the only non-joke example of a major "bard" NPC. Don't get me wrong - I'd love to see bards - I mostly play them when I play D&D, but I just don't think we will. That said, with Forresten, I suspect everyone involved in his creation is long-gone, so I don't think those attitudes persist at Blizzard.

[Ielenia]

No idea, but it was sizeable. Basically everyone who'd played WC3 knew who he was.

"I have no idea, but I have an idea". If you have "no idea", you can't tell if it was "sizeable" or even how big or small this "sizeable" was.

Anyway, all the gear he drops is cheap "schoolboy giggles" gay innuendos - because "bards are gay lol" and being gay is inherently funny, right? If you're twelve maybe:

So, your own opinion, because you associate anything colorful to "school boy giggles gay innuendos".

Sorry I don't agree. He's a simple tribute character to a composer. He's not a part of WoW lore or something.

You can disagree all you want, won't change the facts. He is a part of WoW lore just as much as Harrison Jones is.

[Eurhetemec]

"I have no idea, but I have an idea". If you have "no idea", you can't tell if it was "sizeable" or even how big or small this "sizeable" was.

I said - everyone who played WC3. That's going be a sizeable percentage of early WoW players. No-one can know the exact percentage, and I'm not willing to lie or make up a figure for you.

So, your own opinion, because you associate anything colorful to "school boy giggles gay innuendos".

Really we have three possibilities:

1) You literally don't understand innuendo in English.

2) You're being intentionally fake-obtuse to try to "win" an argument rather than discussing something.

3) You understand the innuendo and are trying to pretend homophobia isn't homophobia. Which would be a lot crummier than the other two.

Doesn't matter which, I'm blocking you, because you're either not capable of having this discussion, or not willing to.

You can disagree all you want, won't change the facts. He is a part of WoW lore just as much as Harrison Jones is.

I mean, literally he isn't because he appears far less often and is involved with far fewer quests. Harrison Jones has an entire zone basically dedicated to him.

[Ielenia]

I said - everyone who played WC3. That's going be a sizeable percentage of early WoW players. No-one can know the exact percentage, and I'm not willing to lie or make up a figure for you.

Except you're claiming "it's sizeable", then you are making a statement regarding the amount of players that played Warcraft 3 and still played WoW at the time of Cataclysm. A number you admitted you had "no idea".

Really we have three possibilities:

I'll take the fourth option: you're projecting your own biases and prejudices into it.

I mean, literally he isn't because he appears far less often and is involved with far fewer quests. Harrison Jones has an entire zone basically dedicated to him.

You're ignoring the point, isn't it? The point is that Russell Brower is part of the canon lore of Warcraft, regardless of how much you don't want to believe it.