Ion saying they "mined out all the lore from WC3" as justification for SL lore

[voidox]

https://clips.twitch.tv/SweetExcitedDonkeyBleedPurple-1eYyUnmxoaUWx1Pl

so in the start of the Asmongold interview with Ion, Ion actually says this: "we mined out a lot of the lore and original settings from Warcraft 3 and onwards"... and I'm left baffled at this.

How does he think this when Blizzard wasted Azshara and Nzoth in SINGLE patches when they are characters that are entire expansions onto their own?

Even legion's final patch had so much potential and content for a full expansion - army of the light rebuilding, azeroth invading different legion worlds, Xe'ra, turalyon/alleria backstory, legion's end, more of sargeras than him just showing up randomly at the end, titan revival plot, draenei and argus and so much more.

heck, if BFA wasn't bogged down by Azshara/Nzoth/Sylvanus, there's another full expansion that can properly focus on a Fourth War.

is this seriously something the game director thinks about narrative of the game? that they "mined out" almost everything from OG warcraft so they had to make up all this new stuff for SL? how is he ignoring how much expansion material (stuff directly tied to Azeroth and Warcraft) they wasted in single patches?

I dunno, this just seems absolutely ridiculous for a lead Blizzard dev to say imo. This is really what they think the state of the lore is.

EDIT - think people are bit confused by my title, Ion said "WC3 and onwards" and I probably should have not left that part out of the title, though I was running out of space so I condensed it. Anyways, my point is that it's not just about WC3 as WoW has a lot existing lore outside of WC3 that can be used for content.

[Khaza-R]

Seems like a really disingenuous response. I seem to remember an interview in BfA asking about if we would see more on the Old Gods, and they effectively said something like they wanted to move beyond old stories and start telling a new ones. So lets be real, this is place they wanted to go with the story and not one where they were forced to go.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Azshara wasn't wasted, she's still alive and kicking. N'zoth may be dead but the cosmic force he represents will always be around. Nobody wanted to be in another Legion esque expansion after Legion. People were already moaning about "Fel fatigue" it wouldn't of been as well received as you put it. I personally might not care too much but thats me. Honestly we don't need an expansion set on the fourth war, BFA was....enough and well I think setting your playerbase against each other is not necessarily healthy(At least when it comes to the idea of war, things get nasty).

Yes a lot of the stuff from WCIII is gone, so they have to rely on sometimes new stuff. They can still make a Warcraft esque expansion if need be but it'd still require new stuff.

It should serve as your reminder that Ion really doesn't give a damn about lore.

No, I think he does, maybe not as much as say some of the writers but sure he cares.

[Aucald]

I think it was just an awkward and hamfisted way of saying "we're trying to move on from WC3" when it comes to Shadowlands and future WoW expansions. A way of saying that WC3 lore is, at this point, a bit played out and that they need to envision new stories and new material in order for WoW to move forward into new story arcs.

[Skytotem]

I think it was just an awkward and hamfisted way of saying "we're trying to move on from WC3" when it comes to Shadowlands and future WoW expansions. A way of saying that WC3 lore is, at this point, a bit played out and that they need to envision new stories and new material in order for WoW to move forward into new story arcs.

Which is dumb, they're only in this position because they rushed and mishandled their earlier material.

[Progenitor Aquarius]

It should serve as your reminder that Ion really doesn't give a damn about lore.

It's extremely unfortunate if he doesn't, because narrative and game designer must collaborate in order to create successful content. If there is a conflict, we will continue to have the same story as in Shadowlands.

[Nerovar]

It's called creative bankruptcy.

[Aucald]

Which is dumb, they're only in this position because they rushed and mishandled their earlier material.

I don't begrudge them for moving on from WC3 in the sense that they can't really hold onto it forever, but I also agree that they plowed through a lot of material in a truly short amount of time, to the overall detriment of the overarching narrative.

[Cheezits]

Protip: Azshara, the Void Lords, etc are not WC3. Elune is not WC3 despite being mentioned. Azshara is also still alive.

They are moving to focus on World of Warcraft threats and less so wanking off Arthas/the effects of Arthas + the Burning Legion. There is more to Warcraft.

[Hctaz]

Which is dumb, they're only in this position because they rushed and mishandled their earlier material.

Yeah pretty much this TBH. They could have done a lot more with the lore that they had.

I totally understand why the stuck to this whole like... one expansion per villain IF even that.
Like Azshara and N'zoth both got used for the same expansion which blows my mind, but even something earlier on like Deathwing. We didn't necessarily need that expansion to be the end of his story, but they also threw Cho'gall in there and the Twilight Cultists. It would have made more sense if we had gotten an expansion centered around the buildup of the Old Gods and the Twilight Cultists first and THEN had Deathwing come out. Oh and Ragnaros was thrown in there too... Jesus, they really are doing these guys dirty.

There's a ton of narrative elements that they could have explored. Like... After Wrath, we could have delved deeper underground and tried to uncover the mysteries of Yogg-Saron and C'thun which leads into that entire Twilight Cult expansion I mentioned previously. From there, we could get Deathwing but the buildup would make more sense.

- - - Updated - - -

I don't begrudge them for moving on from WC3 in the sense that they can't really hold onto it forever, but I also agree that they plowed through a lot of material in a truly short amount of time, to the overall detriment of the overarching narrative.

Yeah... I think that might be part of the nature of MMO's though in general? Correct me if I'm wrong for assuming this, but it sounds like a lot of the main story elements are thought up well in advance of the actual expansions being released. They likely have an outline for 2 or 3 expansions at a time, but I'm sure elements of those expansions change, and sometimes they will probably need to find a way to bridge the gap in the middle of an expansion.

WC3 didn't suffer from this same issue because the stories it told were finished when they were released. We didn't play a live service game over the course of 2 years to see the story of WC3: The Frozen Throne play out.

So I think there's a lot of "hindsight is 20/20" stuff, but I do also think a lot of the narrative mistakes could have been fixed had they spent a little more time fleshing out the particulars instead of going with the flow.

Like Illidan's narrative in TBC for example: It came across like they simply desired us to go there and fight him because he's a cool dude, but I don't know that they came up with a fully realized reason for us to do so.
I think with a little more time, they would have been able to figure something out that was a lot cooler. Maybe link the whole Ashbringer mini-quest thing where you learn that Mograine's "second son" is on Outland. Could have done something like Illidan has him captive and is trying to force him to craft some more holy weapons capable of taking down the Burning Legion so we need to go to Outland to look for him, find him with Illidan, Illidan refuses to tell us what he's doing, and we gotta beat him up.
And it would also make sense since the Scourge was sorta the last thing we fought. We barely managed to defeat Naxxrammas, so we'd probably need something like the Ashbringer to even stand a chance of going to Northrend. Could have been a cool narrative tie in.

[Skirdus]

The fact that they've been relying almost exclusively on bringing back fan-favorite WC3 characters back to life for the past few xpacs (Grommash, Illidan, Kael'thas and Uther in a sense) tells me they aren't willing to move beyond those roots because they're afraid they can't write characters as iconic or as gripping as those ones anymore

[Wonderment2]

I mean pandaland added a shit tonne of lore not connected and Warcraft 3 and alot of it was fanstastic.

So no Shadowlands is bad because.... Well it's bad

[dimitrov]

all of this + emerald dream

[Ashana Darkmoon]

Have you guys actually played WC3 recently? I have really fond memories from when I was a teenager/young adult. Then playing reforged 20 years later it was like...wow, this got visited by the suck fairy.

SC and Brood War have aged much, much better than WC3 in terms of story imo!

[Sentynel]

It was bound to happen sooner or later. Doesn't really matter how they handled the Emerald Dream or Azshara or N'zoth. Would've bought them what? One, maybe 2 expansions worth of materials before running out?

This game was never really about the story anyway. Lore is more like just a wrapping for the fat loot pinatas imo.

[dimitrov]

https://clips.twitch.tv/SweetExcitedDonkeyBleedPurple-1eYyUnmxoaUWx1Pl

so in the start of the Asmongold interview with Ion, Ion actually says this: "we mined out a lot of the lore and original settings from Warcraft 3 and onwards"... and I'm left baffled at this.

How does he think this when Blizzard wasted Azshara and Nzoth in SINGLE patches when they are characters that are entire expansions onto their own?

Even legion's final patch had so much potential and content for a full expansion - army of the light rebuilding, azeroth invading different legion worlds, Xe'ra, turalyon/alleria backstory, legion's end, more of sargeras than him just showing up randomly at the end, titan revival plot, draenei and argus and so much more.

heck, if BFA wasn't bogged down by Azshara/Nzoth/Sylvanus, there's another full expansion that can properly focus on a Fourth War.

is this seriously something the game director thinks about narrative of the game? that they "mined out" almost everything from OG warcraft so they had to make up all this new stuff for SL? how is he ignoring how much expansion material (stuff directly tied to Azeroth and Warcraft) they wasted in single patches?

I dunno, this just seems absolutely ridiculous for a lead Blizzard dev to say imo. This is really what they think the state of the lore is.

all of this + emerald dream

[Jester Joe]

I mean, not a single old god was more than a single patch. In comparison, N'zoth actually got the most out of it.

Whether or not you agree with how they handled it though, he's still right at the end of the day. Everything was used pretty much.

[Shadowferal]

The fact that they've been relying almost exclusively on bringing back fan-favorite WC3 characters back to life for the past few xpacs (Grommash, Illidan, Kael'thas and Uther in a sense) tells me they aren't willing to move beyond those roots because they're afraid they can't write characters as iconic or as gripping as those ones anymore

Yea...said here

It's called creative bankruptcy.

And that's a shame. But it's a monetary reason I believe. New ideas mean financial risk.

[Kumorii]

"justification"...

[azka]

He was talking about Arthas.
Move on.