10.0 should remove the timer from Mythic+ dungeons...

[ellieg]

And where is torghast in DF?

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How did you came to that conclusion is truly astonishing. I am saying that M+ TIMER is blocking all sorts of interesting things that COULD be implemented in M+.

Its only against because timer exists. Without timer nobody gave a shit that they had 5 min longer run that "the faster rng route that could happen". Not to mention groups wouldn't disband after first mistake.

What does torghast not being in DF have anything to do with anything we were talking about?

[mst3kfan]

The whole point of M+ is to be an ever increasing challenge. It would be a HUGE mistake for Blizzard to remove the timer. If you want transmog, go farm old raids/dungeons. M+ is not the place for you.

[kaminaris]

What does torghast not being in DF have anything to do with anything we were talking about?

You tell me, you were the first to even mention torghast.

[tonicsargeras]

The whole point of M+ is to be an ever increasing challenge. It would be a HUGE mistake for Blizzard to remove the timer. If you want transmog, go farm old raids/dungeons. M+ is not the place for you.

A timer is not necessary to offer an ever increasing challenge

[zero2022]

the problem is not the timer...is the balance between classes.

[KrayZ33]

A timer is not necessary to offer an ever increasing challenge

Is it not the case in M+ though?

Because the timer does increase the challenge.
You will do increasingly difficult pulls, if you want to beat it.

[Runicblood]

And where is torghast in DF?

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Not to mention groups wouldn't disband after first mistake.

If this is the wow player mentality, explain to me how half a pug raid leaves after 1 wipe.

It's not like everyone just going to sit around and bash their heads against the encounter again hoping the others now know what to do.

You go into high m+ already knowing what to do. When a noob walks in and fails mechanics, i'm out, because i don't want to waste time.
If the timer is clearly not going to be made, why stay? I want a quick in and out experience, maybe get some score. The gear means nothing at this point. If i want gear i'll be doing a +15 or raid with my guild.

[ellieg]

You tell me, you were the first to even mention torghast.

I'm saying that blizz does add content to the game that is not focused on esports like you claimed.

[kaminaris]

If this is the wow player mentality, explain to me how half a pug raid leaves after 1 wipe.

It's not like everyone just going to sit around and bash their heads against the encounter again hoping the others now know what to do.

You go into high m+ already knowing what to do. When a noob walks in and fails mechanics, i'm out, because i don't want to waste time.
If the timer is clearly not going to be made, why stay? I want a quick in and out experience, maybe get some score. The gear means nothing at this point. If i want gear i'll be doing a +15 or raid with my guild.

This wow player mentality is shaped up by design decisions.

A lot of people like you think they never do mistakes, but you absolutely do them. Then you get mad that people left your key "because the noob walked in and failed mechanics".

[Rageonit]

This wow player mentality is shaped up by design decisions.

A lot of people like you think they never do mistakes, but you absolutely do them. Then you get mad that people left your key "because the noob walked in and failed mechanics".

Yet again avoiding straight answers and resorting to ad hominem, because you know being honest would show how wrong you are about the most basic stuff.
It doesn't matter if he's the one making mistakes. What matters is that people leave groups in content with no time restrictions. Clearly, your claim that people wouldn't leave m+ with no timer is wrong. They absolutely would, and there's nothing to show they wouldn't. You really believe that you've gotten to the bottom of it with that timer thing, don't you? Yet it is you who accuses Blizzard for being stubborn

[kaminaris]

Yet again avoiding straight answers and resorting to ad hominem, because you know being honest would show how wrong you are about the most basic stuff.
It doesn't matter if he's the one making mistakes. What matters is that people leave groups in content with no time restrictions. Clearly, your claim that people wouldn't leave m+ with no timer is wrong. They absolutely would, and there's nothing to show they wouldn't. You really believe that you've gotten to the bottom of it with that timer thing, don't you? Yet it is you who accuses Blizzard for being stubborn

Of course they do, its again you inability to fully comprehend my post. Show me where i said "people dont leave untimed content"?

Timer makes group disband way faster.

[Rageonit]

Of course they do, its again you inability to fully comprehend my post. Show me where i said "people dont leave untimed content"?
Timer makes group disband way faster.

The post above was about people leaving PUG raid (NOT timed content) after 1 (one) wipe. Please, enlighten us how is it possible to leave group faster than after first wipe. Before first pull...? You got a great example of how people abandon not timed content after first mistake and your only answer was to resort to ad hominem.
FYI, m+ groups do not disband after first wipe. I've finished plenty of 20+ runs this season with a wipe here or there. But if the group generally does well and numbers are fine, people tend to continue. So this is another thing that's mostly in your imagination.

[kaminaris]

The post above was about people leaving PUG raid (NOT timed content) after 1 (one) wipe. Please, enlighten us how is it possible to leave group faster than after first wipe. Before first pull...? You got a great example of how people abandon not timed content after first mistake and your only answer was to resort to ad hominem.
FYI, m+ groups do not disband after first wipe. I've finished plenty of 20+ runs this season with a wipe here or there. But if the group generally does well and numbers are fine, people tend to continue. So this is another thing that's mostly in your imagination.

Dude, you are arguing against something I have never said, so there is nothing to be said here.

I had far more leavers in M+ than pug raids after wipes. People staying literally hours when we did argus first week with pug. Something like this does not happen in M+.
"People tend to continue" is pretty much delusion. As soon as there is any doubt key is not going to be timed group is gone.

Another thing is 20 doesn't seem like high key considering people do 29-30s now. Was doing 21s when 23-25 was absolute best. So no wonder people don't leave 20 after just one wipe.

[ellieg]

Dude, you are arguing against something I have never said, so there is nothing to be said here.

I had far more leavers in M+ than pug raids after wipes. People staying literally hours when we did argus first week with pug. Something like this does not happen in M+.
"People tend to continue" is pretty much delusion. As soon as there is any doubt key is not going to be timed group is gone.

Another thing is 20 doesn't seem like high key considering people do 29-30s now. Was doing 21s when 23-25 was absolute best. So no wonder people don't leave 20 after just one wipe.

8% of accounts have keystone master right now. 1% of accounts have keystone hero.

Thats means only 12.5% of players that got ksm have pushed past to do all 20s. Overall id say 20s are still pretty high keys compared to what the majority of the m+ population is doing. Especially pugs, you know the groups that ppl would just straight up leave from. I dont think its pugs that are doing those 29-30 keys.

[kaminaris]

8% of accounts have keystone master right now. 1% of accounts have keystone hero.

Thats means only 12.5% of players that got ksm have pushed past to do all 20s. Overall id say 20s are still pretty high keys compared to what the majority of the m+ population is doing. Especially pugs, you know the groups that ppl would just straight up leave from. I dont think its pugs that are doing those 29-30 keys.

20 is mid if top is 30. Pug or not, this is irrelevant.

Also doesn't change the argument, As soon as there is any doubt key is not going to be timed group is gone.
Unless you of course make it "chill run for weekly bingo ticket"

[DechCJC]

I keep seeing this thread come up and I've already put my thoughts into the matter, but I'm gonna really hammer home how I feel about this.

This is literally the last thing I want to see Blizzard change; I would sooner have them bring back Azerite than have this change go through. Mythic plus is fine, the people that enjoy it, enjoy it because of the timer. The timer is what adds the challenge; Removing the timer removes the challenge. Though this has been beaten to death at this point and I'm sure those that want it have seen and disagreed with every counter-argument under the sun.

Removing the timer for M+ borderline kills it for anyone that enjoys it now while adding content that only the most degenerate type of person would enjoy, while also LOWERING the required skill cap to push high.

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A timer is not necessary to offer an ever increasing challenge

????

Imagine there's a boss fight in a huge circular room. On the outside of the room, you do your normal damage to the boss and have no mechanics to deal with. The further you move in to the room, the more damage you do, but the more mechanics you have to deal with. If there's no timer, every player stays on the outside of the room and slowly takes it down; The timer forces players to move inwards and keep upping the amount of threat to their run in order to meet the time requirement.

Without enrage timers, there are only a handful of bosses in the game that couldn't just be cheesed with multitudes of tanks, healers and kiting classes. They'd just be hour long training dummy boss fights. Even with current tuning, if there was no timer there would practically be no limit to how high you could push; Even if every single ability one shot you, I can guarantee that there would be a way to go through entire dungeons super slowly without taking damage, or by bringing enough healers that it doesn't matter.

Even if there was a point where it became impossible because there was a mechanic that one shot you through everything no matter what you did; How exactly is that challenging or good gameplay? Literally impossible is not a challenge, it's just that, impossible.

[Rageonit]

Dude, you are arguing against something I have never said, so there is nothing to be said here.
I had far more leavers in M+ than pug raids after wipes. People staying literally hours when we did argus first week with pug. Something like this does not happen in M+.

How is it surprising, in any shape or form? Especially for progression raids on first week? Try doing the same a couple of weeks later, I'd like to see those PUGs staying with you for hours. That's laughable, man. They won't and they don't - go play the game now and you'll see. One wipe and half of the raid is gone.

And is it not obvious that the nature of dungeon running is very different to raidng? That in dungeons people want fast and short content that can be completed in a limited amount of time? If you believe that people crave for dungeon content they can do "literally for hours", than you're delusional. Timer or not, if they see it going south, they will leave. Timer does players a favour, because it's a definite indication if you can complete it in the given conditions or not. If you assume that without the timer they will go like: "Oh cool, we have all the time in the world, so we can endure this wipefest for two hours straight", than you're wrong. Taking the timer away won't change jack.

"People tend to continue" is pretty much delusion. As soon as there is any doubt key is not going to be timed group is gone.

No, it's not delusional. In a good group wipe =/= overtime. Yeah, sure, maybe if the DPS is bad - but then again, why should you stay if the DPS is not up to the task? Like I've said, I've completed plenty of ~20s with wipes.

Another thing is 20 doesn't seem like high key considering people do 29-30s now. Was doing 21s when 23-25 was absolute best. So no wonder people don't leave 20 after just one wipe.

Oh, so in reality the problem exists only in the highest keys, where doing it on time is the only point, as you don't do those keys for gear anymore. And those keys are done by a very small % of the playerbase, so for most of the players, the problem is non existant! Thanks for pointing that out.

[ellieg]

20 is mid if top is 30. Pug or not, this is irrelevant.

Also doesn't change the argument, As soon as there is any doubt key is not going to be timed group is gone.
Unless you of course make it "chill run for weekly bingo ticket"

20 is definitely not mid if less than 1% of the playerbase is doing them. And 25 is probably top if we are talking about pugs, since the issue at hand is leaving groups, which only happens in a pug.

[epigramx]

It's very surprising this thread has 24 pages; it's too simple to debunk and cover; I wasn't around when it started so I guess it might not have had comprehensive debunking.

First of all: it's inevitable that it wouldn't be with m+ levels anymore that way; in order for people to get ranked: they'd have to stay in for 10 hours or more; since devs aren't insane: if they ever did make a gametype like this: it would not be "m+ without timer" at all but something different with more fixed difficulties or at least capped.

You COULD make an argument to make something different; e.g. you could keep a "mythic 0" ONLY which would be very hard for the average player (something like level 18 or 20 now); but it's inevitable to be subjective because someone could tell you: "just run up to level 20 then" (or <insert your max level you don't hate>).

[chiddie]

I wonder if instead of adding punishments for failing the timer they could instead just ADD rewards if you beat it.

You fail the timer? Key stays the same level and you have normal loot. You beat the timer? Key goes +1/2/3 and you get additional loot.