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  1. #461
    Quote Originally Posted by Rageonit View Post
    Oh, so in reality the problem exists only in the highest keys, where doing it on time is the only point, as you don't do those keys for gear anymore. And those keys are done by a very small % of the playerbase, so for most of the players, the problem is non existant! Thanks for pointing that out.
    There is really no point arguing with someone who can't do basic logic.

    People leave at all keys level, the higher the key, the faster people leave. Doesn't mean problem doesn't exist on lower keys, it does exist. Just the tolerance is higher.
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  2. #462
    Herald of the Titans Alroxas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chiddie View Post
    You fail the timer? Key stays the same level and you have normal loot. You beat the timer? Key goes +1/2/3 and you get additional loot.
    A version of this already exists? You get [lower ilv] loot for completing dungeons than if you timed it. On keys over 15 (max ilvl reward), +40% chance for an extra item per key level so you reach 4 pieces of loot on a +20 completed in time...
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  3. #463
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    There is really no point arguing with someone who can't do basic logic.
    People leave at all keys level, the higher the key, the faster people leave. Doesn't mean problem doesn't exist on lower keys, it does exist. Just the tolerance is higher.
    ...and you're arguing that somehow, without the timer the problem won't exist.
    Only it will.
    And I'd like to remind you this whole thing started with you saying that without the timer, "People won't live after first wipe" - and now you're backtracking on this yourself, saying that for keys other than the highest ones, the tolerance is higher. And the only thing that we have established here, is that people who want to do m+ on time, will live if the key can't be done on time. Which is the whole point of m+. To do it on time. Brilliant!
    Last edited by Rageonit; 2022-04-29 at 08:37 PM.

  4. #464
    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZ33 View Post
    Is it not the case in M+ though?

    Because the timer does increase the challenge.
    You will do increasingly difficult pulls, if you want to beat it.
    Keystone Dungeons already scale up mob health/damage. If you removed the timer it would still be an infinitely scaling challenge. It would be a different kind of challenge at higher key levels (20+) and I don't want to remove that content for anyone... which is why I advocate for the return of challenge modes.

    Perhaps a more elegant implementaion would be to have the timer as an affix, added only for 16+ keys

  5. #465
    Quote Originally Posted by tonicsargeras View Post
    Keystone Dungeons already scale up mob health/damage. If you removed the timer it would still be an infinitely scaling challenge. It would be a different kind of challenge at higher key levels (20+) and I don't want to remove that content for anyone... which is why I advocate for the return of challenge modes.

    Perhaps a more elegant implementaion would be to have the timer as an affix, added only for 16+ keys
    Without a timer, at a high enough scaled level. Would you not just cc all but 1 mob every pack? Would you not reach a point where you literally have to wait for lust for every pull?

  6. #466
    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    Without a timer, at a high enough scaled level. Would you not just cc all but 1 mob every pack? Would you not reach a point where you literally have to wait for lust for every pull?
    Nobody would wait for Bloodlust on every pull in a +15... Speed and efficiency are their own reward because player time is a limited resource.
    Players dont sit around waiting for cooldowns before every pull in Torghast even though there's no timer. There is a pseudo-timer if you are going for Flawless runs but that's mainly for cosmetics/achievements.

    For crazy high 25+ keys they might do that; that's why I advocate for adding challenge modes (or only using a timer for 16+ keys) into the game. People who enjoy the fast-paced dungeon challenge experience (like me) will still have rewards to chase, but it doesn't impact the rest of the playerbase. I think the game is more fun when players have agency over how fast or slow they want to clear the dungeon; seems like a win-win.

  7. #467
    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    The timer isn't what makes difficulty, it's just intended to measure your skill and gear to see how much higher you earn to push.

    You can't just leave out the fact that the timer is always the same no matter what for a dungeon, but the difficulty scale comes from the increase in damage and health from each key stone level. Hence your comparison isn't really applicable.
    thats bs though . 1 minor mistake from 1 person can cost you timer and key .

    we are not robots to play for 30-40 minutes flawlesly 100 % of time. even mdi teams make mistakes.

    its bringnign nothing besides pure frustration when key id depeleted not from fault of owner of key

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    Quote Originally Posted by tonicsargeras View Post
    Nobody would wait for Bloodlust on every pull in a +15... Speed and efficiency are their own reward because player time is a limited resource.
    Players dont sit around waiting for cooldowns before every pull in Torghast even though there's no timer. There is a pseudo-timer if you are going for Flawless runs but that's mainly for cosmetics/achievements.

    For crazy high 25+ keys they might do that; that's why I advocate for adding challenge modes (or only using a timer for 16+ keys) into the game. People who enjoy the fast-paced dungeon challenge experience (like me) will still have rewards to chase, but it doesn't impact the rest of the playerbase. I think the game is more fun when players have agency over how fast or slow they want to clear the dungeon; seems like a win-win.
    and what would be bad about it ? if people want to spend whole week in 1 dungeon let them

    how does this would affect the way you play game ? when most of time even with bl if people cannot perform they will never kill certain bosses. its especially visible on tyranical weeks when you do dungeons with undergeared groups.

  8. #468
    Quote Originally Posted by tonicsargeras View Post
    ...and add Challenge Modes back to the game with cosmetic rewards for people who enjoy that speedrunning gameplay.

    We can have both M+ and CMs in the game at the same time! M+ can be a more relaxed experience where tanks don't need to plan routes and people don't have to chainpull like its WOTLK. You can still do that if you want but I think many people would prefer if that wasn't the default setting.

    For people who want that additional challenge you can have an entirely separate opt-in game mode with cool cosmetic rewards. You can even rotate which dungeons are available every season to spice things up, and add seasonal rewards.

    Timed dungeons were never the core of the WOW experience, and it shouldn't be the primary way that people engage with group content. They are incredibly complex and inaccessible to casual players, and drive people to quit the game because there is no alternative.
    Agreed, either that or widen them a bunch while adding bonus objectives to a given dungeon.
    Make it so that it's doable at a leisurely pace, but requires a little haste and a lot more skill to complete it entirely.
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  9. #469
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    honestly the only reason I don't do mythic+ is the timer, I love hard dungeons but I cant stand being timed so I just don't do them. If they took out the timers and up the difficulty a bit to make up for it id be all over mythic+.
    Upped the difficulty? It's endless scaling? It has impossible level mode... What are you even talking about?

  10. #470
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tomten View Post
    Upped the difficulty? It's endless scaling? It has impossible level mode... What are you even talking about?
    remove the timer, make a +1 as hard as a +5 a +5 as hard as a +10 and so on and so on.
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  11. #471
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    remove the timer, make a +1 as hard as a +5 a +5 as hard as a +10 and so on and so on.
    So you want regular dungeons but harder?
    Because removing both the scaling element and the timer makes it a dungeon. You want a dungeon, harder than m0. Which is understandable but really, you should try a 5+, there really is not a timer unless you wipe on every other trash pack.... Anyhow... m+ is something different and should stay the way it is.
    Just so we're clear on what you actually want

  12. #472
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tonicsargeras View Post
    Nobody would wait for Bloodlust on every pull in a +15... Speed and efficiency are their own reward because player time is a limited resource.
    How long have you played WoW? Because you used to have to wait for cooldowns to be up or save them for a good attempt. Because they wouldn't reset when you wipe or the encounter was over. People will always prioritize speed and efficency but they will also stop those it if means reward vs no reward.
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  13. #473
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tomten View Post
    So you want regular dungeons but harder?
    Because removing both the scaling element and the timer makes it a dungeon. You want a dungeon, harder than m0. Which is understandable but really, you should try a 5+, there really is not a timer unless you wipe on every other trash pack.... Anyhow... m+ is something different and should stay the way it is.
    Just so we're clear on what you actually want
    I want the scaling I just don't want the timer and would want them to all be 5 or so higher then currently to make up for not being timed.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  14. #474
    I enjoy the mental gymnastics on full display in here

    "i want the scaling i just don't want the timer"

    people on here wanna sandbag keys and lust every pull to get good rewards. lmao

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    btw you had this in torghast 8 where people cried rivers of blood bc it was "too hard" in s1

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    also funny that people brought up cata heroics where people also cried like fucking babies until it got nerfed into impotence

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    The truth is that y'all shitters see not timing a key as some sort of capital offense when in reality, it is an inevitability. people who do keys tend to not time a significant portion of them. it aint the end of the fucking world, just go next

  15. #475
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    I want the scaling I just don't want the timer and would want them to all be 5 or so higher then currently to make up for not being timed.
    You go do torghast then? We dont need a 5th, just slightly modified for your personal weird liking...
    You have dungeons, plenty of different difficulties, actually 3 static and 3 infinite scaling, 3 of them without timer.
    The timer is truly insignificant until +15 and thats if you pug only.... So i really don't see a need or even a solid argument for your design choice.
    Also you "wanting" higher difficulty i call bullshit on, it's right there in the game, you're simply just not up for the challenge, I feel you're the type of person to demand the whole group to "just wait for lust so we can get past this trash pack, it will be a lot easier after, i promise" guy... No thanks.

  16. #476
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tomten View Post
    You go do torghast then? We dont need a 5th, just slightly modified for your personal weird liking...
    You have dungeons, plenty of different difficulties, actually 3 static and 3 infinite scaling, 3 of them without timer.
    The timer is truly insignificant until +15 and thats if you pug only.... So i really don't see a need or even a solid argument for your design choice.
    Also you "wanting" higher difficulty i call bullshit on, it's right there in the game, you're simply just not up for the challenge, I feel you're the type of person to demand the whole group to "just wait for lust so we can get past this trash pack, it will be a lot easier after, i promise" guy... No thanks.
    Sure I can agree there is no solid argument for it as it’s just a personal hang up I have with not liking timed content In any thing ever.

    As far as the other difficulty's go there all unfortunately to easy for my liking with the last time I really enjoyed a dungeons difficulty being hard mode mechagon the first three weeks it was out when me and my group of friends were still rocking some out of date gear from normal uldir because some of them wanted the mount.

    Torghast could be fun I suppose I don’t actually know how high the difficulty goes as I think it to just be hellishly boring with all the grey mobs and interiors so I’ve never done more then the bare minimum. If it had more variety like say mix it with islands then I’d likely actually give it a go.

    As far as challenge and waiting for lust, I’ve never done it in the past even on things people reflect on as being rather hard like pre nerf cata heroics so It seems rather unlikely I’d start with mythic +.
    Last edited by Lorgar Aurelian; 2022-04-30 at 02:19 AM.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  17. #477
    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    thats bs though . 1 minor mistake from 1 person can cost you timer and key .
    If 1 minor mistake costs you a timer and key then you're either running a 25+ and should expect that or your dps/route is horrendous and you missed the timer because of that, not the minor mistake.

    The hyperbole from people that clearly don't even run keys is getting stupid at this point. You can make multiple mistakes and still time 20s let alone fucking 15s.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    I want the scaling I just don't want the timer and would want them to all be 5 or so higher then currently to make up for not being timed.
    Just say you want to get carried through runs without paying gold for it. It's pretty obvious at this point most people advocating to get rid of the timer are just bad at the game.

  18. #478
    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    Without a timer, at a high enough scaled level. Would you not just cc all but 1 mob every pack? Would you not reach a point where you literally have to wait for lust for every pull?
    What is the problem here, exactly? We're talking about keys well beyond the maximum loot threshold, so if some people want to do them in 3 hours who does that hurt, specifically?

    I mean I hope you're not suggesting that it would somehow become normal for people doing +16s to afk for lust timers, because frankly I can't even be assed to wait for a 10+ minute battleground queue these days.
    Last edited by oplawlz; 2022-04-30 at 02:34 AM.
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  19. #479
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tech614 View Post
    Just say you want to get carried through runs without paying gold for it. It's pretty obvious at this point most people advocating to get rid of the timer are just bad at the game.
    If I wanted to get carried id just play with my friends when they do them.

    they have offered it before in bfa and they wanted me to gear my tank for raiding but I wasn't interested.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  20. #480
    Honestly not getting this "people would just wait for hero/lust cd for every pull". Not doubting some would try this, but you guys realize that a group dependent on heroism for every trash pull is going to get absolutely destroyed by the first boss, right? Hero or not.

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