1. #13901
    The Undying Breccia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Somewhatconcerned View Post
    But it happened when he was President. And that's all the electorate cares about.
    Funny story: this is false. The people who are willing to ignore facts, evidence and logic are the people who already voted for a serial adulterer failed businessman because he promised them a Wall, 25 million jobs and 4% GDP growth. Then, they voted for him after he provided none of that.

  2. #13902
    Quote Originally Posted by Breccia View Post
    Mortgage debt is higher among the middle-class and rich, because poor people can't afford a house in the first place. Poor people rent and get no assets for it, or they're homeless. But hey, at least they don't owe a mortgage, right?

    People who are so poor they can barely afford food and rent don't go to the college necessary to dig themselves out of their bad situation, leaving themselves poor forever.

    I work at a public university, one dedicated to keeping costs low to get as many people into college as possible. We're scraping for grant and scholarship money to keep children of farmers and inner-city youths enrolled. This attitude of yours is insulting. You're basically saying that income tax is unfair to able-bodied people because disabled people can't work.
    I'm glad you're doing work that's fulfilling for you in public university. But don't try to level a "your attitude is insulting" moral indignation on me. You know why forgiving student loan debt would primarily function as a windfall to the rich. And you're no friend to children to farmers and inner-city youths if make their taxes responsible to repaying the student debt of elites. Maybe they can better sort through solutions to higher-priced college that doesn't involve prices continuing to climb as it's fueled by free loans.
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  3. #13903
    The Undying Breccia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tehdang View Post
    You know why forgiving student loan debt would primarily function as a windfall to the rich
    Liar.

    Your own source says that the upper class owe 60% of the money but make 75% of the payments, while the lower class owes 20% but makes 10% of the payments. Your source, Brookings.

    https://www.brookings.edu/blog/up-fr...-from-the-fed/

    People who are better off are having less difficulty paying off those loans. People who are poorer are having more difficulty. That's not just objective facts, it's also common sense.

    And that's leaving out fraudulent loans. Which, of course, Biden has already spent time trying to manage. Four years of DeVos was a tragedy.

    Poor people can't afford those loans and the forgiveness would make a much bigger difference to them.

    Your attitude was insulting, but your math is worse. See me after class.

  4. #13904
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tehdang View Post
    I'm glad you're doing work that's fulfilling for you in public university. But don't try to level a "your attitude is insulting" moral indignation on me. You know why forgiving student loan debt would primarily function as a windfall to the rich.
    A one-off forgiveness, maybe, but Breccia's got better numbers on that. But the cost of college is the primary reason there's a massive socioeconomic disparity in who goes to college in the first place. Standardized loan debt forgiveness and programs that focus on forgiveness prioritizing the lower-income first both fix that particular issue. Student loan forgiveness is a solution to the underlying socioeconomic disparity.

    And you're no friend to children to farmers and inner-city youths if make their taxes responsible to repaying the student debt of elites.
    That's a horseshit lie.

    Tax the rich instead. Problem solved.

    "But we've set the system up to unfairly punish the poor because we hates them and need a subjugated class to abuse!" Yeah, that attitude can fuck off for free.

    Maybe they can better sort through solutions to higher-priced college that doesn't involve prices continuing to climb as it's fueled by free loans.
    That's not what causes prices to rise. Where do you get this absolute steaming lunacy?


  5. #13905
    Quote Originally Posted by Rasulis View Post
    GDP down is misleading. It is down because government spending went down a lot in the 1st quarter of 2022. Export/Import also went down because of Ukraine/Russia war and China's lockdowns. On the other hand, the core GDP, consumer and business spending went up, and hiring also went up. Unemployment is almost back to pre-covid. Granted the workforce is smaller. However, we are seeing people that left the job market starting to rejoin.
    Let's also not forget the massive increase in 4Q GDP of 6.9%.

    The 1st quarter is almost always the lowest one when 4Q ends up being huge because of holiday spending.

    Funny how they have been very quiet about GDP until now.
    Buh Byeeeeeeeeeeee !!

  6. #13906
    Quote Originally Posted by Somewhatconcerned View Post
    Didn't say it was in his control. But it happened when he was President. And that's all the electorate cares about. Enjoy the L.
    Not an L to anyone but you. Good try.

    It happening while he is president, is chance, he has no control over it. Can he stop the gas prices and inflation in Europe as well? Because they are feeling the same effects. How fucking ignorant are you?

  7. #13907
    Merely a Setback Kaleredar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by postman1782 View Post
    Not an L to anyone but you. Good try.

    It happening while he is president, is chance, he has no control over it. Can he stop the gas prices and inflation in Europe as well? Because they are feeling the same effects. How fucking ignorant are you?
    They are right that such things will likely get blamed on Biden and the democrats by American voters

    However, he presumes that 1) people will look more favorably upon their republican adversaries, 2) These issues will still be around at election time and 3) enough republicans care to come out and vote when they've been told voting is a sham by their former president.

    Which are some pretty heavy caveats.

    Because unlike, say, Trump with COVID, one can't really point to how Biden is making the situations actively worse... unless they want to blame the US' involvement in supporting Ukraine, but that's a losing prospect.
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  8. #13908
    Quote Originally Posted by Breccia View Post
    Liar.

    Your own source says that the upper class owe 60% of the money but make 75% of the payments, while the lower class owes 20% but makes 10% of the payments. Your source, Brookings.

    https://www.brookings.edu/blog/up-fr...-from-the-fed/

    People who are better off are having less difficulty paying off those loans. People who are poorer are having more difficulty. That's not just objective facts, it's also common sense.

    And that's leaving out fraudulent loans. Which, of course, Biden has already spent time trying to manage. Four years of DeVos was a tragedy.

    Poor people can't afford those loans and the forgiveness would make a much bigger difference to them.

    Your attitude was insulting, but your math is worse. See me after class.
    Forgiveness affects the loan balance and favor the rich. They benefit the most.

    Speaking of math,
    a disproportionate share of student loan debt—and an even larger share of monthly out-of-pocket student debt payments.
    You should get a better handle on objective facts. This isn't proof that "People who are better off are having less difficulty paying off those loans." It's proof that lower income borrowers "participate in income-driven repayment (IDR) plans, which do not require any payments from those whose incomes are too low and limit payments to an affordable share of income for others."

    You're citing data confirming that lower income borrowers participate in programs and aren't required to make payments, or pay less.

    Not that I'm complaining about your citation of data that help my case. By all means, show everybody reading that rich people owe the most money in student loans, and an even greater share of payments, while the poor owe less, and are required to pay less on them. It's a good math lesson that I hope you'll have opportunity to recommend to students at your university.
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  9. #13909
    Quote Originally Posted by tehdang View Post
    You know why forgiving student loan debt would primarily function as a windfall to the rich.
    Which do you think would think of it as a windfall more? The family with tens of thousands in student debt that could use that extra money to feed themselves or the rich family with millions already and would unlikely notice the hundreds?
    Last edited by Dontrike; 2022-04-30 at 05:25 AM.

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  10. #13910
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tehdang View Post
    Forgiveness affects the loan balance and favor the rich. They benefit the most.
    It's still the right thing to do.

    Resolving wealth inequality is a much more complex issue, and it isn't gonna be solved by ensuring that the lower classes stay shackled under levels of debt that deny them prosperity.

    Refusing to do something that would help those struggling because it might also help the wealthy is a perfect example of cutting off your own nose to spite your face.


  11. #13911
    Merely a Setback Kaleredar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tehdang View Post
    Forgiveness affects the loan balance and favor the rich. They benefit the most.

    Speaking of math,


    You should get a better handle on objective facts. This isn't proof that "People who are better off are having less difficulty paying off those loans." It's proof that lower income borrowers "participate in income-driven repayment (IDR) plans, which do not require any payments from those whose incomes are too low and limit payments to an affordable share of income for others."

    You're citing data confirming that lower income borrowers participate in programs and aren't required to make payments, or pay less.

    Not that I'm complaining about your citation of data that help my case. By all means, show everybody reading that rich people owe the most money in student loans, and an even greater share of payments, while the poor owe less, and are required to pay less on them. It's a good math lesson that I hope you'll have opportunity to recommend to students at your university.
    This is a really dishonest take on the situation.

    You might as well be saying that people that are rich are more inconvenienced by car payments because they have to pay off more expensive payments, potentially on multiple cars, than by the person who is poor and has to only make car payments on a single much more mundane car. Which, of course, is nonsense, because the poor person having to pay a few hundred dollars living paycheck to paycheck is hurt a lot more than a multi-millionaire having to pay out thousands of dollars. Because the poor person might not be able to afford food or pay their other bills because of it, while the second never has that worry, no matter how many ferrari payments they're making each month.

    Because of course, the car payment is a much larger percentage of the poorer person's income. Just like the student loan debt they have to pay off compared to a rich person, regardless of the insufficient relief that exists right now.


    Your goalpost shifting is ultimately irrelevant, because not a single one of the things you've said it would do (that "it would help the rich more than the poor," that "it devalues a degree," that "it's unfair to people who had to pay loans previously") actually counteract the notion that relieving student loan debt and helping the people most in need are an objectively good thing, and even were those things you said true, it would not stop that.

    Our question is "does this help poor people?"

    Your answer is "well, sure, but..."

    But we didn't ask for a "but." We asked if it helped poor, disadvantaged people in need, and you haven't illustrated out how it doesn't. And sorry, your ultimate hypothesis of "well life is actually much easier for the poor because X, Y or Z thing exists to help them, compared to how the rich don't have that" is not going to cut it.
    Last edited by Kaleredar; 2022-04-30 at 05:48 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Kaleredar is right...
    Words to live by.

  12. #13912
    Quote Originally Posted by Dontrike View Post
    Which do you think would think of it as a windfall more? The family with tens of thousands in student debt that could use that extra money to feed themselves or the rich family with millions already and would unlikely notice the hundreds?
    The issue is not addressing the rarity of families with tens of thousands in student debt that have trouble feeding themselves. Existing federal programs give them extra money by deferring debt repayment or relieving the debt itself, not to mention qualifying for programs for food. The rich get neither, nor need neither. So maybe you want extra money spent informing lower income people of money that is theirs, today, ready for the taking. That would at least do a better job helping those in need, rather than dump a bunch of money preferentially on the richest in society, and highlight the minority that both needed the help and received it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    This is a really dishonest take on the situation.

    You might as well be saying that people that are rich are more inconvenienced by car payments because they have to pay off more expensive payments, potentially on multiple cars, than by the person who is poor and has to only make car payments on a single much more mundane car.
    If you were demanding that the federal government absorb car loans, I'd also oppose you on it for similar reasons. You may highlight the poor people that love getting the car, and I would still talk about how pathetically small the amount of money spent on the poor, compared to those on the rich. If I spend $10 on an upper class individual for every $1 for someone in the lowest quintile, you'll still always have a truthful statement of how much that $1 mattered.
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  13. #13913
    Merely a Setback Kaleredar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tehdang View Post

    If you were demanding that the federal government absorb car loans, I'd also oppose you on it for similar reasons. You may highlight the poor people that love getting the car, and I would still talk about how pathetically small the amount of money spent on the poor, compared to those on the rich. If I spend $10 on an upper class individual for every $1 for someone in the lowest quintile, you'll still always have a truthful statement of how much that $1 mattered.
    The money mattered more to the people who needed it, just like with student loans. That is what is important.
    “Do not lose time on daily trivialities. Do not dwell on petty detail. For all of these things melt away and drift apart within the obscure traffic of time. Live well and live broadly. You are alive and living now. Now is the envy of all of the dead.” ~ Emily3, World of Tomorrow
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Kaleredar is right...
    Words to live by.

  14. #13914
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tehdang View Post
    The issue is not addressing the rarity of families with tens of thousands in student debt that have trouble feeding themselves. Existing federal programs give them extra money by deferring debt repayment or relieving the debt itself, not to mention qualifying for programs for food. The rich get neither, nor need neither. So maybe you want extra money spent informing lower income people of money that is theirs, today, ready for the taking. That would at least do a better job helping those in need, rather than dump a bunch of money preferentially on the richest in society, and highlight the minority that both needed the help and received it.
    Again, means testing is a framework largely used to justify denial of support, even by mischaracterizing it as "something the wealthy will also benefit from", as you're doing here.

    Who cares? Abolishing student debt is a net good, period. That doesn't mean this is the only thing we should do, or that it should be seen as a primary means of addressing wealth inequality, but that was never the argument in the first place. It's a straw man you invented, to deflect to, to try and derail the conversation away from the core net good.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    The money mattered more to the people who needed it, just like with student loans. That is what is important.
    It's the same argument as "we can't provide welfare that could help poor black families, because more whites will use it, so welfare doesn't fix racial injustice". Or rather, non-argument. It's a stupid excuse used to deflect the discussion away from the salient points, because tehdang knows they can't make an argument against them.


  15. #13915
    Quote Originally Posted by tehdang View Post
    The issue is not addressing the rarity of families with tens of thousands in student debt that have trouble feeding themselves. Existing federal programs give them extra money by deferring debt repayment or relieving the debt itself, not to mention qualifying for programs for food.
    "A couple underfunded systems already kind of help the poor" isn't a great argument.

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  16. #13916
    Maybe I'm just really stupid but it seems like the situation has changed, with Coronavirus having had such a massive impact on the economy and inflation and wage stagnation both ripping away peoples' ability to actually pay back their student loans. It seems to me like if people can't afford to buy houses and start families the economy's going to be even more screwed up down the line, and America would be better off biting the bullet over eating the ramifications of a fertility crisis.

    Besides, America gave a debt bailout to the banks 15 years ago, and bankers are second only to property developers when it comes to scumminess. There can't be that many bankers and property developers coming out of university who are having difficulty paying off their student loans.
    If you are particularly bold, you could use a Shiny Ditto. Do keep in mind though, this will infuriate your opponents due to Ditto's beauty. Please do not use Shiny Ditto. You have been warned.

  17. #13917
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    It's still the right thing to do.

    Resolving wealth inequality is a much more complex issue, and it isn't gonna be solved by ensuring that the lower classes stay shackled under levels of debt that deny them prosperity.

    Refusing to do something that would help those struggling because it might also help the wealthy is a perfect example of cutting off your own nose to spite your face.
    I think it would be just best then instead of helping either the rich or the poor, is we need to give corporations another tax break so they can buyback more stock. /s

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by tehdang View Post
    The issue is not addressing the rarity of families with tens of thousands in student debt that have trouble feeding themselves. Existing federal programs give them extra money by deferring debt repayment or relieving the debt itself, not to mention qualifying for programs for food. The rich get neither, nor need neither. So maybe you want extra money spent informing lower income people of money that is theirs, today, ready for the taking. That would at least do a better job helping those in need, rather than dump a bunch of money preferentially on the richest in society, and highlight the minority that both needed the help and received it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    If you were demanding that the federal government absorb car loans, I'd also oppose you on it for similar reasons. You may highlight the poor people that love getting the car, and I would still talk about how pathetically small the amount of money spent on the poor, compared to those on the rich. If I spend $10 on an upper class individual for every $1 for someone in the lowest quintile, you'll still always have a truthful statement of how much that $1 mattered.
    I keep seeing people talk about forgiveness helping the richest in society. What in the fuck sort of dumb stupid fucking ignorant take is this? Pretty much every discussion surrounding forgiveness, especially large amounts of forgiveness, has involved income cutoffs. Some are hard cutoffs at around the 75k range and others are cutoffs that reduce the amount for people above 75k up to like 120k or 130k.

    So even at those high numbers, how in the fuck is someone making 130k, "among the richest in society" when we've got this stupid dumb fuck who gets billions ins subsidies from the government for his corporation liquating some stock and buying a social media platform for $44 billion, and we're arguing over some people barely making six figures getting some debt relief?

    This is how the oligarchs have won and some people are just too dumb to see it.

  18. #13918
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    The money mattered more to the people who needed it, just like with student loans. That is what is important.
    The same argument holds if I set $100 on fire and give $1 to a poor person. The poor person receiving that money is a consequence, but what's important is a mountain of money was wasted elsewhere to achieve that. This is the student loan version of tax cuts for the rich, but more disingenuous.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dontrike View Post
    "A couple underfunded systems already kind of help the poor" isn't a great argument.
    Soaking the tax payer to feed the rich is dummy politics. It's much better to focus on the costs of college and the value of degrees compared to the cost. You may spend all day trashing the very programs that make the rich have even higher payments compared to the poor, when contrasted with the higher debt compared to the poor. It's just denying statistical facts to feed a policy preference.

    Quote Originally Posted by fwc577 View Post
    I keep seeing people talk about forgiveness helping the richest in society. What in the fuck sort of dumb stupid fucking ignorant take is this?
    It's the truth, backed by research by left-wing institutions. The value from the degree compared to the debt, and existing payback forgiveness/delay, already make student debt forgiveness exacerbate inequality.

    Pretty much every discussion surrounding forgiveness, especially large amounts of forgiveness, has involved income cutoffs. Some are hard cutoffs at around the 75k range and others are cutoffs that reduce the amount for people above 75k up to like 120k or 130k.

    So even at those high numbers, how in the fuck is someone making 130k, "among the richest in society" when we've got this stupid dumb fuck who gets billions ins subsidies from the government for his corporation liquating some stock and buying a social media platform for $44 billion, and we're arguing over some people barely making six figures getting some debt relief?

    This is how the oligarchs have won and some people are just too dumb to see it.
    First, because the government does not have money, it takes money from the tax payer. You're making people that became truck drivers after high school pay for the yuppie that can expect $75,000 salary to pay back the cost of the degree. Even cutoffs below the 100k level favor the richest. Draw the income range, and you're increasing inequality by giving more to the top than the bottom. So, I keep hearing all the rhetoric on the plight of the poor, when student debt forgiveness does nothing for the cost of college and privileges the richest segment. I will echo back to you what you said: "what in the fuck sort of dumb stupid fucking ignorant take."

    And assuming you want to end electric vehicle and other renewable energy/climate change subsidies "billions in subsidies," go hash it out with the NGOs and other special interests to do with climate change. They have their aims to spend billions to encourage whatever electric car manufacture and renewable this and thats, and others want hundreds of billions spent on loans. We could have a left-wing special interest group showdown where everybody agitates for their area of particular interest.
    Last edited by tehdang; 2022-04-30 at 04:30 PM.
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  19. #13919
    Quote Originally Posted by postman1782 View Post
    Not an L to anyone but you. Good try.

    It happening while he is president, is chance, he has no control over it. Can he stop the gas prices and inflation in Europe as well? Because they are feeling the same effects. How fucking ignorant are you?
    No, the L will be in November, then again in 2024.

    But keep ignoring the way the public votes.

  20. #13920
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Somewhatconcerned View Post
    No, the L will be in November, then again in 2024.

    But keep ignoring the way the public votes.
    We got the same "there's gonna be a Republican landslide" rhetoric in 2020, too. That's what fueled the whole "Trump actually won and the election musta been stolen" conspiracy bullshit.

    It's the same thing backing the "silent majority" conspiracy lunacy, too.


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