Poll: Do you want Dark Rangers?

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  1. #481
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Dracthyr don't have a 'flight'.
    They have flight matching colors.

    Partially. That is still more gameplay than lore, since shadowmeld hasn't explicitly been a part of WoW lore. In WC3 its lore was specifically a blessing granted by Elune to her followers. Druids and male Night Elves like Demon Hunters did not have because at the time of WC3 lore they were not Elune's followers. Also it only activated at night, when the moon was out.

    Shadowmeld hasn't actually gotten lore updates since the WC3 manual. It just exists in gameplay as a race-wide ability usable at any time. No lore explanation given, not even a simple update to say every Night Elf has it. It just exists as a gameplay that works for any Night Elf, including the Highborne Mages, during any time of day.

    So WoW's Shadowmeld isn't actually lore based at all.
    This is exactly what lore is, molded to fit the gameplay.

    To be honest, Warlocks could have had more Pitlord and Eredar style forms to give more of an homage to WC3. Shadow Illidan was merely used because Illidan is cool. And it worked, cuz Warlock Metamorphosis was actually quite cool.
    Pitlords are four-legged creatures. Eredar aren't original demons. I'd say Dreadlords, but they aren't original demon either. Perhaps, Su\inccubus?

    Every Hero could literally be its own class in WoW. WoW is simply not flexible enough to ever get around to realizing them as new classes.
    Really? You see them all as viable?

  2. #482
    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    They have flight matching colors.
    Yep. That they do.

    This is exactly what lore is, molded to fit the gameplay.
    Except there was no new lore to render its canonicity valid. Again, no different than how professions or specs are regarded. They don't formally exist in lore. Lore doesn't regard Blacksmithing and Jewelcrafting and Alchemy any differently from Healing and Assassination.

    Elune granting her blessing was meant to be an explanation that applied to her devoted followers; the Sentinels. How or why she suddenly grants this ability to all Night Elves, even those known to not be Elune worshippers, that works st any time of day, is left unexplained in lore. The ability conflicts directly with what we know from lore, and it was never canonized in the first place. It is an abstraction of gameplay taken from Warcraft 3 out of its canon context.

    You can see the same applied with Gift of the Naaru, which exists in the lore but is abstracted into gameplay that doesn't actually reflect the lore. There is no activated healing ability in the lore that all Draenei can tap into. Any healing ability Draenei have In the lore comes from training through a profession.

    Eredar aren't original demons.
    Neither is Shadow Illidan form an original demon.

    In fact, what do you even consider an original demon? All sentient demon races seem to be corrupted forms of previously existing race or creature.

    Really? You see them all as viable?
    Why not? Every class we play is merely an abstraction of some form of RTS unit or MOBA character in an RPG setting.

    Even the non WC3 characters can have their gameplay and themes abstracted into a Warcraft setting. Nazeebo and Deckard Cain would be a great basis for a potion-based Witchdoctor healer/summoner class.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-04-29 at 02:10 PM.

  3. #483
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    So what, Rexxar gets down on all four, roars and starts running?
    No that would be mimicry, instead the aspects have the same effects of the respective animals through magic, IE emulation.


    Varian wasn't in vanilla. Neither did Garrosh. They were special characters, though. So was Tyrande, the racial leader of the Night elves. Moira was a hostile mob NPC back then.
    Varian was in vanilla he was a npc on Alcaz Island before being removed near AQ.

    But that’s Besides the point as you dodged the question again. All of the listed characters were introduced with out there own models, all of them stayed that way for years, some of them are still like that with Moria, do you not count them as significant because they didn’t stand out in a crowd?

    It's not like they looked at them and realized their relevancy to the class. It's all by chance.
    never said it was by chance either.


    Provided? You only use your own words.
    just a handful of post ago I linked you illidan’s page so you could read why he’s different then the other demon hunters, you didn’t read it.

    before that the other user linked excerpts to show that banshees didn’t retake the body’s, you read the tweet thought it agreed with you so didn’t read the experts.

    Before that you linked sources from wowpedia to show that sylvanas used drain life, you didn’t read them and she never did use it in said sources

    Before that I linked you sources that she was using domination magic, you didn’t read them and said she was using shadow magic then linked me her abilities again with out reading them as they showed domination magic.

    Before those it was Chen being from pandaria, sylvanas not showing any powers, sylvanas not having any powers pre jailer, and likely many more not off the top of my head.

    At every turn you have refused to do even the basic level of work needed for a serious discussion even when it’s provided for you so I’m not pretend we’re having one.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  4. #484
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Yep. That they do.


    Except there was no new lore to render its canonicity valid. Again, no different than how professions or specs are regarded. They don't formally exist in lore. Lore doesn't regard Blacksmithing and Jewelcrafting and Alchemy any differently from Healing and Assassination.

    Elune granting her blessing was meant to be an explanation that applied to her devoted followers; the Sentinels. How or why she suddenly grants this ability to all Night Elves, even those known to not be Elune worshippers, that works st any time of day, is left unexplained in lore. The ability conflicts directly with what we know from lore, and it was never canonized in the first place. It is an abstraction of gameplay taken from Warcraft 3 out of its canon context.

    You can see the same applied with Gift of the Naaru, which exists in the lore but is abstracted into gameplay that doesn't actually reflect the lore. There is no activated healing ability in the lore that all Draenei can tap into. Any healing ability Draenei have In the lore comes from training through a profession.
    You're just explaining how gameplay differs from lore sometimes. Doesn't make the core of it not lore.

    "The Gift of the Naaru is a blessing bestowed by the divine naaru upon the draenei, and all draenei can tap into this blessing to heal injured allies. The gift manifests in the form of a glowing blue rune or "forehead signet" to signify that they are indeed touched by the Light."

    Neither is Shadow Illidan form an original demon.

    In fact, what do you even consider an original demon? All sentient demon races seem to be corrupted forms of previously existing race or creature.
    Hmmm...
    At this point, any demon can have its origins changed.

    Why not? Every class we play is merely an abstraction of some form of RTS unit or MOBA character in an RPG setting.

    Even the non WC3 characters can have their gameplay and themes abstracted into a Warcraft setting. Nazeebo and Deckard Cain would be a great basis for a potion-based Witchdoctor healer/summoner class.
    Diablo is a great source since it overlaps in its fantasy with WoW.
    Nazeebo can, indeed, provide the basis for a Witch Doctor\Shadow Hunter, as i've used in my concept thread.
    As for Deckard, i used him as a basis for a Bard skin for Rogues in my other concept thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    No that would be mimicry, instead the aspects have the same effects of the respective animals through magic, IE emulation.
    So, that's exactly what Beastmasterd are described doing.

    But that’s Besides the point as you dodged the question again. All of the listed characters were introduced with out there own models, all of them stayed that way for years, some of them are still like that with Moria, do you not count them as significant because they didn’t stand out in a crowd?
    But, they did.
    Varian's model is unique.
    Garrosh, although using the Orc model with playable armor, was one of the only Mag'hars out there before they became playable.
    Moira was nothing special before Cataclysm.
    Tyrande stood next to Malfurion most of the time.

    never said it was by chance either.
    Then, what is it?

    just a handful of post ago I linked you illidan’s page so you could read why he’s different then the other demon hunters, you didn’t read it.
    And you provided the source, like required.

    before that the other user linked excerpts to show that banshees didn’t retake the body’s, you read the tweet thought it agreed with you so didn’t read the experts.
    I was too fast to trust.

    Before that you linked sources from wowpedia to show that sylvanas used drain life, you didn’t read them and she never did use it in said sources
    If WC3 Dark Rangers use it and she is one (and was one back then), then she does.

    Before that I linked you sources that she was using domination magic, you didn’t read them and said she was using shadow magic then linked me her abilities again with out reading them as they showed domination magic.
    And i admitted the mistake. Though, it isn't blue in color like the Jailer's. Her chains do not dominate Tyrande or Bolvar in the cinematics. Only binds them. The Jailer, on the other hand, dominates Bolvar, Thrall and Jaina with his chains.

    Before those it was Chen being from pandaria, sylvanas not showing any powers, sylvanas not having any powers pre jailer, and likely many more not off the top of my head.
    Of course she had powers. But, her repertoire increased significantly since she took to the spotlight.

  5. #485
    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    You're just explaining how gameplay differs from lore sometimes. Doesn't make the core of it not lore.
    It absolutely does.

    Where has Shadowmeld been presented in WoW lore?

    https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Shadowmeld

    There's literally zero references to it in WoW lore to pull from.

    "The Gift of the Naaru is a blessing bestowed by the divine naaru upon the draenei, and all draenei can tap into this blessing to heal injured allies. The gift manifests in the form of a glowing blue rune or "forehead signet" to signify that they are indeed touched by the Light."
    Hmm, wasn't aware of those two quests. I stand corrected then. I acknowledge that Gift of the Naaru is represented in the lore.

    Hmmm...
    At this point, any demon can have its origins changed.
    Pretty much. I'm sure even the Imps and Felstalkers have some sort of natural pre-fel counterpart we simply haven't seen before. It's ripe for exploration.

    Warlocks actually have tons to source from, and I'm really surprised Pit Lords have not been tapped as a source yet, even now.

    Diablo is a great source since it overlaps in its fantasy with WoW.
    Nazeebo can, indeed, provide the basis for a Witch Doctor\Shadow Hunter, as i've used in my concept thread.
    As for Deckard, i used him as a basis for a Bard skin for Rogues in my other concept thread.
    To be honest, if you go a bit more abstract, you could even extend it to most Overwatch and Starcraft characters too, since they play up on classic RPG archetype tropes.

    Ana is a sniper/healer who uses healing darts and healing grenades. Retheme it a bit, and her abilities could be repurposed be a sort of Artificer/Alchemist who uses healing darts and healing flasks. Zagara is a summoner who spreads creep, and could be a template for a 'Vermin/Pest' focused Necromancer that blights the land to enhance their creepy crawlies. Exploding plague maggots/slimes, poison spitting spider swarms, flying vampyre bats, 'Hunter killer' Nerubians, etc.

    Blizzard even helped move some of that along with some of their cross-universe skins, like Crypt Queen Zagara, Sapper Junkrat and Farstrider Hanzo.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2022-04-29 at 07:42 PM.

  6. #486
    Because it's hard to make classes that's similar to other existing classes. And of course the class bloat.

  7. #487
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    So, that's exactly what Beastmasterd are described doing.
    it’s not and you know it’s not which is why you tried to argue that they were just mimicking animals before I found where it says they are spells and then tried to claim that mimicry and emulation are the same thing using the second definition off Webster even though that one doesn’t apply unless he actually is running around on all fours.



    But, they did.
    Varian's model is unique.
    Garrosh, although using the Orc model with playable armor, was one of the only Mag'hars out there before they became playable.
    Moira was nothing special before Cataclysm.
    Tyrande stood next to Malfurion most of the time.
    Varian was in classic without a unique model.

    Garrosh spent all of tbc in a whole village of other Maghars.

    Moria was always important as the catalyst in the dwarf conflict and reason why we kill Thrrasian, and is still using a basic model.

    Malfurion only shows up twice or so before cata and neither time is he next to Tyranda.

    So not only are you wrong on all of these you are still avoiding the question on rather they need a unique model to be significant.



    Then, what is it?
    hop a few post back and read it it’s all still there.



    And you provided the source, like required
    which you didn’t read just like all the others ones.

    Why would I put in the extra effect of going through books to copy out quotes when you have already proven numerous times you don’t care to actually read or check any thing even when it’s handed to you?

    I mean if I wanted to I could just make up quotes at this point I know you’d never actually check the books or any thing else even if handed it.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  8. #488
    Quote Originally Posted by Stormwolf64 View Post
    Because it's hard to make classes that's similar to other existing classes. And of course the class bloat.
    Not anymore. Not with Dragonflight giving us "Mage plus healing"

  9. #489
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ersula View Post
    Not anymore. Not with Dragonflight giving us "Mage plus healing"
    Which the DE isn't even close to being....

  10. #490
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Which the DE isn't even close to being....
    You might be right, but at the same time its too early to say for sure.

  11. #491
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stormwolf64 View Post
    You might be right, but at the same time its too early to say for sure.
    Eh, it's pretty clear. The ability "Soar" alone differentiates the DE from the Mage.

  12. #492
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Eh, it's pretty clear. The ability "Soar" alone differentiates the DE from the Mage.
    Except that's a racial ability, not a class ability.

  13. #493
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ersula View Post
    Except that's a racial ability, not a class ability.
    Soar is the ability that lets you hover in the air for a duration while casting abilities on the move.
    https://www.mmo-champion.com/content/

    That isn't a racial.

  14. #494
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    It absolutely does.

    Where has Shadowmeld been presented in WoW lore?

    https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Shadowmeld

    There's literally zero references to it in WoW lore to pull from.
    From WC3. Which, projects on WoW.

    Pretty much. I'm sure even the Imps and Felstalkers have some sort of natural pre-fel counterpart we simply haven't seen before. It's ripe for exploration.

    Warlocks actually have tons to source from, and I'm really surprised Pit Lords have not been tapped as a source yet, even now.
    Yea... weird that they can't summon them.
    If none are original, are there any Fel creatures?

    To be honest, if you go a bit more abstract, you could even extend it to most Overwatch and Starcraft characters too, since they play up on classic RPG archetype tropes.

    Ana is a sniper/healer who uses healing darts and healing grenades. Retheme it a bit, and her abilities could be repurposed be a sort of Artificer/Alchemist who uses healing darts and healing flasks. Zagara is a summoner who spreads creep, and could be a template for a 'Vermin/Pest' focused Necromancer that blights the land to enhance their creepy crawlies. Exploding plague maggots/slimes, poison spitting spider swarms, flying vampyre bats, 'Hunter killer' Nerubians, etc.

    Blizzard even helped move some of that along with some of their cross-universe skins, like Crypt Queen Zagara, Sapper Junkrat and Farstrider Hanzo.
    Well, i don't know if we'd play as a Nerubian.
    A Farstrider is essentially a Hunter.
    I used Junkrat as a source for my Hunter revamp concept thread, specifically for MM.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    it’s not and you know it’s not which is why you tried to argue that they were just mimicking animals before I found where it says they are spells and then tried to claim that mimicry and emulation are the same thing using the second definition off Webster even though that one doesn’t apply unless he actually is running around on all fours.
    Could you please be more clear about how aspects differ from the Beastmaster?

    Varian was in classic without a unique model.
    Weird, i don't remember him.

    Garrosh spent all of tbc in a whole village of other Maghars.
    He wasn't major then.

    Moria was always important as the catalyst in the dwarf conflict and reason why we kill Thrrasian, and is still using a basic model.
    Not a racial leader of the Dark Iron Dwarves yet.

    Malfurion only shows up twice or so before cata and neither time is he next to Tyranda.
    Then, she stood alone.

    So not only are you wrong on all of these you are still avoiding the question on rather they need a unique model to be significant.
    Recently, yes.

    hop a few post back and read it it’s all still there.
    You don't know, but you assume it's not lore.

    which you didn’t read just like all the others ones.

    Why would I put in the extra effect of going through books to copy out quotes when you have already proven numerous times you don’t care to actually read or check any thing even when it’s handed to you?

    I mean if I wanted to I could just make up quotes at this point I know you’d never actually check the books or any thing else even if handed it.
    Then, don't expect me to agree with you.

  15. #495
    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    Yea... weird that they can't summon them.
    If none are original, are there any Fel creatures?
    Do Fel constructs count? Like a Fel Reaver or Infernal? Infernals look like they're magically crafted beings, so maybe. Dunno.

    Well, i don't know if we'd play as a Nerubian.
    A Farstrider is essentially a Hunter.
    I used Junkrat as a source for my Hunter revamp concept thread, specifically for MM.
    Not just talking about playing as those characters, but some of them retheme their abilities as well.

  16. #496
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    Could you please be more clear about how aspects differ from the Beastmaster?
    hop back to my post about the difference between mimicry and emulation with the Webster links.



    Weird, i don't remember him.

    He wasn't major then.

    Not a racial leader of the Dark Iron Dwarves yet.

    Then, she stood alone.
    You don’t seem to remember any one which is why your wrong about all of these characters and even when trying to revise being wrong about them you just jump from one wrong statement to the next like Tyranda standing with malfurion to her standing alone even though she was always with other priest/sentinels in the temple of the moon.



    Recently, yes.
    so to be clear saying Illidan is the way he is to stand out in a crowd and they do it for all significant characters is complete bunk as it wasn’t a recent development and almost every other significant character didn’t have unique models until wrath.



    You don't know, but you assume it's not lore.
    nope wrong again, that would be the same bindery you ascribe to just on the other end.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  17. #497
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Do Fel constructs count? Like a Fel Reaver or Infernal? Infernals look like they're magically crafted beings, so maybe. Dunno.
    Just machines infused with Fel.
    There must be original demons. I guess we're not over with fel, then.

    Not just talking about playing as those characters, but some of them retheme their abilities as well.
    Class skins?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    hop back to my post about the difference between mimicry and emulation with the Webster links.
    So, one inevitably acts like an animal. Which, doesn't line up with what you were saying.

    You don’t seem to remember any one which is why your wrong about all of these characters and even when trying to revise being wrong about them you just jump from one wrong statement to the next like Tyranda standing with malfurion to her standing alone even though she was always with other priest/sentinels in the temple of the moon.
    That resemble her?

    so to be clear saying Illidan is the way he is to stand out in a crowd and they do it for all significant characters is complete bunk as it wasn’t a recent development and almost every other significant character didn’t have unique models until wrath.
    Main characters also have different source backgrounds.
    Like Illidan consuming the Skull of Gul'dan and being seared by Sargeras instead of going through the Demon Hunter training and ritual.
    Arthas wasn't killed and raised. He donned the Helm of Domination and wielded Frostmourne. Unlike us, who were raised and bestowed with powers and gear by him.

    nope wrong again, that would be the same bindery you ascribe to just on the other end.
    So, you can agree that it's lore.

  18. #498
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    So, one inevitably acts like an animal. Which, doesn't line up with what you were saying.
    Nope that would be mimicry the exact opposite of what I said which I already explained.


    That resemble her?
    as Night elf's in robes? yup they do.

    Unless your trying to jump from significant npc's having Unique models to just having different armor (not even Unique armor) as the Npc's next to them.


    Main characters also have different source backgrounds.
    They do which is why your earlier claim's of illidan going through the same procress as other demon hunters or he only looks the way he does to stand out in a crowd are so absurd.


    So, you can agree that it's lore.
    Nope still not what I said.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  19. #499
    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    Just machines infused with Fel.
    There must be original demons. I guess we're not over with fel, then.
    It'll never be over.

    That's like saying we'll be over with Orcs or Humans.

    Class skins?
    In Heroes of the Storm, yes. Some characters retheme their abilities to match the skins. Like Mystic Prince Arthas rethemes his Breath of Sindragosa to a Chinese style Cloud Serpent that spawns Jade crystals with its breath.

  20. #500
    Because blizz is saving it for later to bait you entitled crybabies who barely do m0 and run wq all day to get back to wow

    and sooner or later you will come here to complain that something is wrong with the class because it didn't meet your fantasy standard you have in your head, bunch of delusional people

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