Ion saying they "mined out all the lore from WC3" as justification for SL lore

[Aucald]

I get that, but what I’m saying is, is it really WC3 lore if its an underpinning feature of your setting? Like would you dismiss Elves as ‘Silmarrilion lore’ in Tolkien’s legendarium?

No, but I also don't see it as a dismissal in any real sense, either. WC3 will have always happened and remains formative to WoW in the general sense, but its specific story riffs (e.g. the Scourge, the Legion, etc.) don't always need to be the primary plot points for the future expansions. WoW's done a pretty good job of cultivating new ideas for lore, but the developers seem to believe a new cosmology is needed now that we've essentially mined WC3's idea pool pretty extensively.

Mind you, I'm not in full agreement on that score, either; I'm more explaining the reason behind why the developers said what the OP is talking about.

[Usernameforforums]

Azshara is still alive. We save her in Nyalotha. When she leaves she says something like the throne of power beckons and it will be mine.

She may have something to do with Sargeras in the future as she want him in the first place and caused the sundering that made Azeroths continents as it is today. She could be the one to reopen the rift that sealed Illidan and Sargeras.

[Aucald]

I would say the Forgotten One was probably one of those giant maws we see throughout Cata. Like the one in Twilight Highlands and the 3 in the Hour of Twilight dungeon / Dragon Soul raid.

Possibly, though in WC3R its model looks more akin to a C'Thun expy than one of the maw creatures like Go'rath or Shu'ma. Could also be its own thing, a unique form of Old God-related aberration.

[Romanthony]

Ouch if shadowlands is the result of them "Mining out" all of wc3 lore, then yikes it did not go well

[ThrashMetalFtw]

Have you guys actually played WC3 recently? I have really fond memories from when I was a teenager/young adult. Then playing reforged 20 years later it was like...wow, this got visited by the suck fairy.

SC and Brood War have aged much, much better than WC3 in terms of story imo!

Hard disagree. The WC3 and SC1 + their expansion storylines still hold up extremely well. Especially every Human or Undead campaign where Arthas is involved. Very few games nail you playing as the objective bad guy as well as the WC3 Undead campaigns.

As for SC2, WoL was pretty good and is obviously still fine, but HotS and LotV were dead on arrival as far as I'm concerned. They had the same kind of storytelling as WoW.

[Eosia]

well ya, I would say he was a bit wasted cause there was much more Blizzard could have done with Kil'jaden in Legion, be it with Velen and the draenei or showing more of Kil and Sargeras.

But the thing is though, that's not Kil'jaeden's style. Never has been. He's always let others do his work for him. He never directly confronts things himself. He didn't seek out the Draenei himself, he had Talgath do it. He didn't corrupt Velen's family, the Demonic Inquisition did. He didn't lead the Legion during the Third War, Archimonde did and that was repeated on AU Draenor. When Ner'zhul escaped his grasp, he sent Illidan to deal with it.

Even when the Legion returns to Azeroth, the Nethrazim are the ones in charge. Gul'dan did the work that Kael'thas attempted back during the Burning Crusade, to open a portal for the Legion to come back. The difference between the two attempts was the presence of the Scepter of Sargeras. During the attempt to open the portal in the Sunwell, Kil'jaeden had it presumably on Argus since he took it from Ner'zhul when he was captured and turned into the first Lich King. But for Legion, Gul'dan had it and was able to bring it to Azeroth courtesy Archimonde hurling him through that portal just before his final death.

sure, but even with all these hints and speculation of his return, the impact of his return is going to be really neutered as compared to what it could have been cause we've already defeated him, handled his main forces/corruption and been to Ny'alotha.

But we've only seen a fraction of Ny'alotha. After N'Zoth's defeat, Zekhan (aka Zappy-boi) found that in talking to veterans of the fight against N'Zoth's forces gave differing descriptions of Ny'alotha. Wrathion described it as a nightmare that N'Zoth was attempting to make real. Compare it to the Legion forces we fought on Outland versus those that came to Azeroth. There were much more of them and more types we hadn't seen before beyond Imps, Shivarra, Nethrazim, Fel Guard, etc.

Not to mention we never really fought against an Old God at full strength. Keep in mind what ripping Y'Shaarj out of the planet did. Why was he so huge and yet the other three so tiny in comparison? The site of Y'Shaarj created the Well of Eternity. It wasn't a mud puddle. Especially when you look at the fact that, for whatever reason, N'Zoth went at Y'Shaarj where the Broken Shore now is. True, Xal'atath could have been referring to their mutual forces of C'thraxxi and N'raqi but still, the point remains that if Y'Shaarj personally came for N'Zoth, he would definitely dwarf the latter.

so I guess he could come back with even more forces, bigger corruption and a new Ny'alotha (I guess?)... but meh, the impact for most people is going to be: "didn't we kamehameha this guy already?"

It depends. He obviously had plans for something that involved him being killed by us. The fact he was killed by a massive blast of Azerite power probably was a boost to him. So far really we have mostly faced Azerothian forces created/corrupted by the Void. Cultists, Nightmare-corrupted forces, and the three races that made up the Aqir (Qiraji, Nerubians, and Mantid). They are relatively weak in the grand scheme of things. The Aqir once fell to the ancient Trolls which is why there is an Ahn'Qiraj, Azol-Nerub, and Manti'vess and no Ajz'Aqir. The Trolls' victory split them up although the Mantid might have already kind of been off on their own.

Not to mention they can still do stuff with the Nerubians. While they used to worship Yogg-Saron, they grew away from it. It came to viewed as like a fly in a web worshiping the spider about to consume it. Granted that stuff comes from the RPG, but it explains why, when their flight from the Scourge accidentally roused Yogg-Saron and the N'raqi began appearing, they were terrified unlike the Mantid who even warn us that if the Old Gods rose again, they would rejoin them hence why the joined Garrosh in the Siege of Orgimmar, they felt the presence of Y'Shaarj via his heart.

And there's also Zerith Umbra to come into play too. As well as Zerith Ordo, Zerith Inordinatio, Zerith Vita, and Zerith Lux.

[GreenJesus]

It's called creative bankruptcy.

Your signature basically exemplifies shadowlands lore and how it is so badly told. Kyrians dropping souls into the maw example is good. Also, sigils coming out of nowhere and are actually super important, get stolen 5 seconds later, "oh wait we can just create new ones lol". Etc etc

Also, the time gated campaign that exposes Devos as the enemy was spoiled by a dungeon you do the second that you hit max level. Did no one say anything about how the story was being told in terms of gameplay?

Or what about the quest to rescue 20 souls from the maw every week. Who are these souls we are rescuing? Do they belong in Bastion? Are we just breaking souls down into energy? Why can't I tell my kyrian buddies to just stop sending souls down there so I dknt have to go to the maw and save 20 of them again.

Blizzards quest designers need to think about how they integrate story into gameplay and what the repercussions of it are.

[Unlimited Power]

MoP was entirely out of left field with mostly new lore and a nice mix of new and established characters.

And it was one of the most well received expansions ever, even if it did have some gameplay issues to be ironed out.

It seems like Blizzard is aiming for a departure from the overarching cosmic story they've established of late, with more localized threats like we saw in MoP.

I frankly look forward to the focus on exploration in a high fantasy setting. Especially since I've never been as hung up about the Old Gods and Azshara as some people tend to be on this forum.

Besides, we still don't know the whereabouts of Azshara after she was freed in Ny'alotha. That plot is essentially unresolved.

As is the case with Xal'atath and whatever deal she struck with N'Zoth.

[Sanguinerd]

Problem with how he views the story as compared to the players is he can see the whole thing from the get go, the whole story. Meanwhile we have to suffer through the same story but are doing so over the span of two+ YEARS and it just doesn't work. Not to mention them time-gating stories because they're too short otherwise is telling too.

Lore-wise we've been in the Shadowlands for what? Two or three weeks or so..

[darkoms]

No, but I also don't see it as a dismissal in any real sense, either. WC3 will have always happened and remains formative to WoW in the general sense, but its specific story riffs (e.g. the Scourge, the Legion, etc.) don't always need to be the primary plot points for the future expansions. WoW's done a pretty good job of cultivating new ideas for lore, but the developers seem to believe a new cosmology is needed now that we've essentially mined WC3's idea pool pretty extensively.

Mind you, I'm not in full agreement on that score, either; I'm more explaining the reason behind why the developers said what the OP is talking about.

It would be much easier if they didn't discard storylines so easily. Nzoth and Azshara deserve their expansion, Yrel and the Army of the Light are not mentioned at all, although they are considered a threat and Zovaal said about some kind of super scary threat and no one paid attention to it, everyone just went home.

[Kharli]

It would be much easier if they didn't discard storylines so easily. Nzoth and Azshara deserve their expansion, Yrel and the Army of the Light are not mentioned at all, although they are considered a threat and Zovaal said about some kind of super scary threat and no one paid attention to it, everyone just went home.

who says they have discarded storylines? azshara is free to do what ever she wants to right now and..she has the frigging scepter of tides as well.


Nzoth, have we actually killed it?

Yrel and the Lightbound might actully be the threat zovaal is talking about, remember they got X'era or something like it who managed to get Yrel on her side.

[voidox]

But the thing is though, that's not Kil'jaeden's style. Never has been. He's always let others do his work for him. He never directly confronts things himself.

lul, there are ways to get Kil'jaden and Velen in the same room or just talking and there are many ways to showcase the dynamic of Kil'jaden and Sargeras. And things would be different at the tail end of Legion when the legion's invasion of Azeroth was almost defeated, you can have Kil'jaden forced into the forefront after he's lost most of his allies on Azeroth and the Legion invaders.

other ideas to expand on his role in Legion: build off what was done in legion, do more after his defeat, showcase more of Kil'jaden doing stuff behind the scenes of the invasion and so on. It's not that hard to showcase things even if he's not in the forefront of the fight.

But we've only seen a fraction of Ny'alotha. After N'Zoth's defeat, Zekhan (aka Zappy-boi) found that in talking to veterans of the fight against N'Zoth's forces gave differing descriptions of Ny'alotha. Wrathion described it as a nightmare that N'Zoth was attempting to make real. Compare it to the Legion forces we fought on Outland versus those that came to Azeroth. There were much more of them and more types we hadn't seen before beyond Imps, Shivarra, Nethrazim, Fel Guard, etc.

right, so stuff in books and not in-game = meaningless. The fact is that we got Ny'alotha in the game and it was wasted as a raid zone, instead of the potential it could have been. As you say, we have a lot of descriptions of how it could have been but none of that made it to the game.

Not to mention we never really fought against an Old God at full strength. Keep in mind what ripping Y'Shaarj out of the planet did. Why was he so huge and yet the other three so tiny in comparison? The site of Y'Shaarj created the Well of Eternity. It wasn't a mud puddle. Especially when you look at the fact that, for whatever reason, N'Zoth went at Y'Shaarj where the Broken Shore now is. True, Xal'atath could have been referring to their mutual forces of C'thraxxi and N'raqi but still, the point remains that if Y'Shaarj personally came for N'Zoth, he would definitely dwarf the latter.

o..kay? what does this have to do with anything being talked about here? none of this is relevant to how N'zoth coming back would be a neutered return compared to what he could have been in his own full expansion after being released.

The fact he was killed by a massive blast of Azerite power probably was a boost to him.

this is an assumption mate, it could easily also not mean anything if he did come back

So far really we have mostly faced Azerothian forces created/corrupted by the Void. Cultists, Nightmare-corrupted forces, and the three races that made up the Aqir (Qiraji, Nerubians, and Mantid). They are relatively weak in the grand scheme of things. The Aqir once fell to the ancient Trolls which is why there is an Ahn'Qiraj, Azol-Nerub, and Manti'vess and no Ajz'Aqir. The Trolls' victory split them up although the Mantid might have already kind of been off on their own.

well the Old Gods are on Azeroth, so their void twisted forces being azerothian based makes sense. Sure we could see more voidy enemies, but at that point it's more void lords than old gods. A large part of the Old Gods appeal are that they twist and corrupt things we know of on Azeroth, and that's what they mainly use against us.

Not to mention they can still do stuff with the Nerubians.

uh, again, what does this have to do with the topic on hand?

and there's also Zerith Umbra to come into play too. As well as Zerith Ordo, Zerith Inordinatio, Zerith Vita, and Zerith Lux.

mate, seriously... you keep leaving me these long replies but it's filled with stuff that has literally nothing to do with the topic on hand.

What do any of the Zeriths have to do with N'zoth being wasted and how a possible return would be incredibly nuetered and meh for most players after we defeated him in BFA?

[Aeluron Lightsong]

well the Old Gods are on Azeroth, so their void twisted forces being azerothian based makes sense. Sure we could see more voidy enemies, but at that point it's more void lords than old gods. A large part of the Old Gods appeal are that they twist and corrupt things we know of on Azeroth, and that's what they mainly use against us.

The Old Gods would get old at this point(At least to anyone not you or me). I'm fine with it because I enjoy Old God stuff in general but the theme has been used massively. I did have one idea they COULD do but its not likely to happen not to mention it has its own flaws.

this is an assumption mate, it could easily also not mean anything if he did come back

Its possible he could come back in a "Council" fight when we fight the Void.

right, so stuff in books and not in-game = meaningless. The fact is that we got Ny'alotha in the game and it was wasted as a raid zone, instead of the potential it could have been. As you say, we have a lot of descriptions of how it could have been but none of that made it to the game.

Give an decent explanation what exactly we can do in Nyalotha which is basically N'zoth's playground. Its not exactly a place we can just setup camp or bases.

[Eosia]

right, so stuff in books and not in-game = meaningless.

Where did you get that idea? The Books are very much canon. Especially from MoP on. The RPG is still up for debate, hence why I cited that as a source. But you ignored the fact I cited Warcraft III, which is a game in case you forgot, where the concept I mentioned was heavily implied.

O..kay? what does this have to do with anything being talked about here? none of this is relevant to how N'zoth coming back would be a neutered return compared to what he could have been in his own full expansion after being released.

Because he wouldn't be "neutered" as you put it. C'Thun, Yogg-Saron, and N'Zoth weren ot at full strength when we fought them.

this is an assumption mate, it could easily also not mean anything if he did come back

So is your insistence he will be "neutered" when he comes back.

mate, seriously... you keep leaving me these long replies but it's filled with stuff that has literally nothing to do with the topic on hand.

And all your repl;ies reduce down to "I'm right and you're wrong so there!"

What do any of the Zeriths have to do with N'zoth being wasted and how a possible return would be incredibly nuetered and meh for most players after we defeated him in BFA?

Because Zerith Umbra is the forge of the Void. So obviously it's going to have some role to play too at some point. It may involve the four Old Gods, it may not.

[Beefhammer]

Azshara wasn't wasted, she's still alive and kicking. N'zoth may be dead but the cosmic force he represents will always be around. Nobody wanted to be in another Legion esque expansion after Legion. People were already moaning about "Fel fatigue" it wouldn't of been as well received as you put it. I personally might not care too much but thats me. Honestly we don't need an expansion set on the fourth war, BFA was....enough and well I think setting your playerbase against each other is not necessarily healthy(At least when it comes to the idea of war, things get nasty).

Yes a lot of the stuff from WCIII is gone, so they have to rely on sometimes new stuff. They can still make a Warcraft esque expansion if need be but it'd still require new stuff.






No, I think he does, maybe not as much as say some of the writers but sure he cares.

Yeah this is what I don't get, frankly never got, that Blizzard gets railed for creating new lore for Warcraft, as if the 3 RTS games weren't creating new lore themselves. Hell, something like 60% of Vanilla was brand new lore created for the world since the scope.of the RTas games was pretty limited due to Blizzard not planning out a whole world and the nature of RTS games.

But even further, if Blizzard only stuck to the old games existing content/lore, many of the same new lore critics would cry could about how stuck in the past, how creatively bankrupt Blizzard is, or how they need to take risks with the story.

One more step, the fact that they get dragged through the mud for even daring to expand upon the universe to give us a broader scope just because it alters what we know about things is just asinine. Blizzard is doing the things we wish all devs would do by taking chances and risks. Yes they fail some times, but I'd rather they try and fail than give us the same boring old shit over and over.

[Lothaeryn]

No one wants the lore to be stagnated with the "Legion background brewing" because it leads nowhere. Brewing... brewing... until never? Hell no.

This is a 20 yo game story inside an even older franchise. Palpatine can't be the antagonist forever (...shouldn't).

They could have set up a thousand other stories to expand upon later before the legion was even needed for plot. Use it when necessary (and move to the next set-up plot); not immediately, and have nothing to look forward to because you couldnt be bothered to set up new stories and disengage your audience... its not a fucking hard concept for most people.

[A Chozo]

They could have set up a thousand other stories to expand upon later before the legion was even needed for plot

And keep Warcraft 3's main antagonists out of the story for 20 more years or something? No, plots have to start and end. The Legion's has ended. On with the next, and let's hope it's good.

If it's not, everyone has a backlog of other games to play instead of one with a shitty story.

[voidox]

Where did you get that idea? The Books are very much canon. Especially from MoP on. The RPG is still up for debate, hence why I cited that as a source. But you ignored the fact I cited Warcraft III, which is a game in case you forgot, where the concept I mentioned was heavily implied.

I know the books are canon, I never said they weren't. And the RPG is not up for debate, it is not canon as stated by Blizzard themselves: https://twitter.com/MickyNeilson/sta...76097590358016

I'm saying stuff happening in books but never seen in-game are pretty much meaningless to a large part of the player base. A HUGE complaint many of us have are how Blizzard keep putting important information/moments/story in books, instead of in the game.

so sure, we can have all the descriptions of Ny'alotha in books, but they mean nothing to the fact that we got Ny'alotha in-game, and it was just a small raid zone and not what it should and could have been.

Because he wouldn't be "neutered" as you put it. C'Thun, Yogg-Saron, and N'Zoth weren ot at full strength when we fought them.

mate, strength has nothing to do with how his return would not have the same impact that it would have had if N'zoth had gotten his own expansion after being released.

As I've gone over many times now, a lot of people are going to see a N'zoth return as "oh, isn't that the cheap villain we kamehameha'd in that one patch?" or "oh great, another back from the dead character" and other such stuff.

just in case you are unaware, cause boy it seems like you are not aware, we're talking about the impact of N'zoth's release and how awful it was handled in BFA. I'm not talking about if N'zoth came back with all the other old gods all at once or with the void lords or something, this topic is literally about N'zoth only.

Were you not around for BFA's final patch and the reaction of people to N'zoth's defeat? or how stupid it was that his release only managed to corrupt parts of two zones? things like that are going to negatively affect how people react if he ever comes back, and they cheapen his return cause of how we've already dealt with N'zoth.

at this point I don't even know what you are arguing for, your first reply wasn't even really disagreeing with my OP that Azshara/N'zoth should have gotten their own expansions instead of being wasted in single patches in BFA.

Fine, you seem to think that N'zoth somehow still has potential with having a grand return based on various assumptions and such, but they all hinge on him not being alone in his return. So w.e, agree to disagree then, I'm not going to keep going in circles with you on this cause I'm not talking about a non-solo return and this has gone way off-topic from my OP.

And all your repl;ies reduce down to "I'm right and you're wrong so there!"

lol, this is a reply people make when they have no actual argument or point to make, nice one dude.

as I said, you leave these long ass replies and they have points that have nothing to do with the topic on hand. Me pointing that out is not going "oh I'm right you're wrong", it's me pointing out the fact that you are bringing up irrelevant stuff.

Because Zerith Umbra is the forge of the Void. So obviously it's going to have some role to play too at some point. It may involve the four Old Gods, it may not.

right, so as I said, bringing up the Zerith has nothing to do with the topic on hand. Glad you agree.

[Feanoro]

So we have an official spin on "Danuser is jealous of Metzen and deliberately blew through his remaining settings and characters so we could see Danuser's ermagerd totes original ideas".

For an absolutely fantastic explanation of what's going on as nuBlizzard cements control, go read Terry Pratchett's "Going Postal". In fact, go read his Discworld series even if you don't care about the Blizz bs.

[Lothaeryn]

And keep Warcraft 3's main antagonists out of the story for 20 more years or something? No, plots have to start and end. The Legion's has ended. On with the next, and let's hope it's good.

If it's not, everyone has a backlog of other games to play instead of one with a shitty story.

I never stated that the Legion should be backlogged for 20 or so years, it (and other plots just like it) should be addressed and concluded in parts where and when it needed to be. but NOT before other stories were set up to replace it. Which they never did, and you blatantly even admit in this garbanzo response that you will go play another game instead as a result of that lack of preparation of a proper continuation of the story.

New stories are always welcome when they have the proper prologue to lead them into the spotlight, Ill repeat again: Its not a hard fucking concept for normal people to understand. The fact you have the gall to shit out this disingenuous non-response that even concedes my point is plainly laughable. But you do you.