Do you like the Drac'thyr Evoker?

[Craaazyyy]

visually? no

when it comes to everything else we literally have 0 information so far

[Nightshade711]

I don't want Blizz to change anything about Dracthyr or Evoker adding more options fine but you people are asking for an overhaul replacement

Never said anywhere that they should be replaced? You’re just making stuff up now.

Pretty sure everyone wanting them fixed have advocated for them to have more body options instead of replacements.

[Delekii]

I mean, there's a very clear option missing, representing 99.99% of respondents:

"How the fuck would I know, I've never played or even seen it being played?"

[Teriz]

Just because it’s “incomplete” doesn’t mean we can’t give feedback.
Arguably it’s the best time to give feedback.

Throwback to when Worgen looked like this in Cata announcement and they were able to fix them because of the feedback.

Yeah, and they (female version) actually ended up looking worse.

[Nightshade711]

Yeah, and they (female version) actually ended up looking worse.

The males looked way better than the announcement model.
Plus there’s a difference between completely redesigning and adding a bit of muscle tone

[Auburst]

You claim they need fixing but a lot of people seem to be happy with them, also didn't they ruin Worgens for the longest time thanks to Player "Feedback" aka whining, isn't selfish for you to assume everyone wants them to be as you imagine?

I don't want Blizz to change anything about Dracthyr or Evoker adding more options fine but you people are asking for an overhaul replacement, Now is my desire selfish... Yes, yes it is but it's something thats already ready to go pretty much without any real tweaking.

Traditional Warcraft male body option would fix all the complaints about spider lizards models. No one wants to take caricature option away from people who want to play as it, but the rest should have access to something that doesn't look like a parody of deviantart furry exhibition.

[Mutineer]

Personally, I'd love it if the dracthyr's proportions were tweaked to more closely resemble that drake's that kept getting posted a few pages back.

[Ghanir]

People should definitely take a second to decide what they should type, though irony seems lost on you.

Saying that the person who was the lead designer on the look of the new race appears to have interjected some of her personal taste into the project (whether you enjoy the result or not), is not out of line or anything more than sadly obvious.

If you were playing a game and the new civilization had a distinct authoritarian bent, liked marching and saluting with their hands out and you found out that the lead designer was a big fan of the Third Reich, you would definitely draw the conclusion that they interjected their personal/political preferences into it. I assume you would find that objectionable.


And I'm sure there were people who had to approve it, however given the way alot of companies like Blizzard are acting recently, I wouldn't be surprised if the pushback was relatively limited.

If you like the result, great, good for you.... but the people who don't are justified in being upset that it looks like Blizzard is producing something that appeals to a particular type of person and not to their main audience. Will it work out for them? Guess we'll find out.

It is perfectly reasonable to voice their opinion about certain features of a project to be changed if you don't like it. What's not fine is to point and criticize a person based on their looks or whatnot.
Just cause some features are associated with certain real life characteristics is in no way a good excuse to pick up pitchforks and torches against the person in question. Just ask/demand changes so the general consensus of the project in question changes for the better.

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Just because it’s “incomplete” doesn’t mean we can’t give feedback.
Arguably it’s the best time to give feedback.

Throwback to when Worgen looked like this in Cata announcement and they were able to fix them because of the feedback.

Giving feedback on the project is fine as long as you don't personally attack the people that worked on it

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Traditional Warcraft male body option would fix all the complaints about spider lizards models. No one wants to take caricature option away from people who want to play as it, but the rest should have access to something that doesn't look like a parody of deviantart furry exhibition.

I swear a lot of people just don't understand the argument that some people would love to be able to alter the races' body to fit more in line with what they'd like to look like. A lot of people aren't advocating to take away the option to be slender-thyr, just let them be swole-thyr aswell.

[Teriz]

The males looked way better than the announcement model.
Plus there’s a difference between completely redesigning and adding a bit of muscle tone

Like I said, I hope people like yourself get what you’re hoping for. I got what I wanted, so hopefully others get what they want as well.

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Giving feedback on the project is fine as long as you don't personally attack the people that worked on it.

Yep, exactly. I’m seeing way too much of that.

[Triceron]

You claim they need fixing but a lot of people seem to be happy with them, also didn't they ruin Worgens for the longest time thanks to Player "Feedback" aka whining, isn't selfish for you to assume everyone wants them to be as you imagine?

I don't want Blizz to change anything about Dracthyr or Evoker adding more options fine but you people are asking for an overhaul replacement, Now is my desire selfish... Yes, yes it is but it's something thats already ready to go pretty much without any real tweaking.

Then that's a terrible excuse considering you admitbyoubjust want this out now rather than done right just because you personally see no flaws and find the current mediocrity acceptable.

I mean, you're not wrong, but it could be better and the feedback is warranted for change.

[Gumble]

Yep, exactly. I’m seeing way too much of that.

You troll this content way more than 99.99% of people, so I'll believe you if you say people are doing this, however I haven't seen any examples of it. Saying "this looks like the artist put her own agenda/desires/fetishes into the work instead of what was asked for" isn't attacking the artist, its attacking their work.

Saying "... and you're a horrible person for doing that" would be attacking the artist.


If I say I love Thomas the Tank trains quite publicly, and then I craft a bunch of starcruisers in Starcraft that look blatantly like big blue trains with faces, and you think that is not a good thing to have done, that isn't attacking me, but rather what I did. If you then go on to say I'm a disgusting train-ophile, and I call you a giant trainphobe, then that starts to get into the realm of personal attacks.


Hopefully that clears up the difference. If there are people actually attacking the people, rather than their work, that is wrong. I just haven't seen any evidence of that yet.

[Teriz]

You troll this content way more than 99.99% of people, so I'll believe you if you say people are doing this, however I haven't seen any examples of it. Saying "this looks like the artist put her own agenda/desires/fetishes into the work instead of what was asked for" isn't attacking the artist, its attacking their work.

I suggest you look at some more comments. Some comments are suggesting that the work is “bad” because of the artist’s sexual orientation, which is uncalled for.

Saying "... and you're a horrible person for doing that" would be attacking the artist.

Which is essentially what they’re doing. Essentially saying that their work is bad because of what they are, which is in turn saying that they are bad people, because what they are is creating bad work.

I really shouldn’t have to explain that to you.

If I say I love Thomas the Tank trains quite publicly, and then I craft a bunch of starcruisers in Starcraft that look blatantly like big blue trains with faces, and you think that is not a good thing to have done, that isn't attacking me, but rather what I did. If you then go on to say I'm a disgusting train-ophile, and I call you a giant trainphobe, then that starts to get into the realm of personal attacks.

Which isn’t even close to what’s happening in this case. In this case, we have an artist designing dragon people, and obvious transphobic posters are saying that her art is terrible because the artist is trans, and the dragon people aren’t masculine enough for their personal tastes. Never mind that Blizzard approved the approach that the artist took, and probably instructed them to design the dracthyr in that way.

But no, it’s simply because the artist is trans, and wanted to create a race of “soy dragons” for “reasons”.

Hopefully that clears up the difference. If there are people actually attacking the people, rather than their work, that is wrong. I just haven't seen any evidence of that yet.

Like I said, look around a bit more.

[Al Gorefiend]

I think if they were going to design a new class based on dragon magic giving it an individual race was the way to go, lest we have yet another class most popular among elves and humans.

I really dislike the design of them. I think doing away with this visage form entirely would make them such an easier thing to stomach. I get it, the aspects and other members of dragon kind like Onyxia had human disguises. Why make that type of shape shifting something all dragons are capable of inherently? Why not explain it as those particular dragons having that ability through study of magic? It makes them too much like Worgen, and again forces yet another class into using the blood elf rig (any male horde demon hunter has to use it, again).
I think the art for them is bad too. They look like Blizz was going for a fierce looking dragon man, then toned it down to look cuter to appeal to the gamers who insist they have cute characters. Now we have cute gecko people

[Gumble]

I suggest you look at some more comments. Some comments are suggesting that the work is “bad” because of the artist’s sexual orientation, which is uncalled for.
Which is essentially what they’re doing. Essentially saying that their work is bad because of what they are, which is in turn saying that they are bad people, because what they are is creating bad work.
I really shouldn’t have to explain that to you.
Which isn’t even close to what’s happening in this case. In this case, we have an artist designing dragon people, and obvious transphobic posters are saying that her art is terrible because the artist is trans, and the dragon people aren’t masculine enough for their personal tastes. Never mind that Blizzard approved the approach that the artist took, and probably instructed them to design the dracthyr in that way.
But no, it’s simply because the artist is trans, and wanted to create a race of “soy dragons” for “reasons”.
Like I said, look around a bit more.

Again, if someone is saying "you're work is bad because you are trans" then that is wrong. I just haven't seen any of that (I don't follow nearly as much as you, so maybe I missed it)

I have seen a fair bit of "this work looks like someone is trying to make soyboy dragons" followed by "well the designer is a trans furry" followed by "yea that's what these look like, I don't like them".

I don't see a problem with that, again, see my example provided. If the artist's work looks like they injected their own personal interests above what the audience would want, then that can be seen as a problem. It isn't a reflection on the artist's personal interests (though it can drift into that realm depending on the person) but rather their inclusion in the work.

At a most base example, if I'm cooking for 100 people, most of whom want hamburgers, and I make a soyburger with wheatgrass, and those people find out that I'm a proud vegan who doesn't think people should eat meat, then its fair to complain that I let my personal preferences interfere with the product I provided. If they say "vegans as a-holes and I'm one too for doing that"..... well they might be right, but it definitely becomes a personal attack.

(you can argue whether or not "most" people wanted the race they are giving us or not, that is immaterial to any given person's distaste of it)



But be that as it may, I just haven't seen any of the types of messages you are talking about. Be careful that you aren't also projecting onto people's dislike of the product and assuming that means they also hate the artist. That is a pretty common logical fallacy.

Example from what you said "Which is essentially what they’re doing. Essentially saying that their work is bad because of what they are, which is in turn saying that they are bad people, because what they are is creating bad work."

If they say "they are bad, therefore their work is bad", that fits. If they say "their work is bad, it looks like it was influenced by who they are", that doesn't.

Another example "obvious transphobic posters".... are you implying that because of what they actually said, or because you feel that anyone attacking the work of a trans person automatically makes then "obvious transphobic posters"? That is doing exactly what you are claiming they are doing, making an assumption about them and judging their work based on your assumption of their character.

If they say "I hate trans people, therefore I hate this shitty dragon race she made" that is one thing, but are you really seeing these types of posts, or simply ones you interpret that way because that is what you already think of them?




As a note, I disliked the presented race (you are well aware) immediately upon seeing it and posted a number of times about how much I disliked how it was designed without having any knowledge of who made it (I don't keep up with developers or who works at Blizzard).

It wasn't until you mentioned in a different thread that the designer was trans that I heard that. That DID however make the design make a lot more sense and made it click how/why these things look the way they do. I doesn't not make me feel one way or the other about the artist, outside of thinking their work still isn't any better from knowing who they are, but it does explain why their work looks like it does.

[Teriz]

I think if they were going to design a new class based on dragon magic giving it an individual race was the way to go, lest we have yet another class most popular among elves and humans.

I really dislike the design of them. I think doing away with this visage form entirely would make them such an easier thing to stomach. I get it, the aspects and other members of dragon kind like Onyxia had human disguises. Why make that type of shape shifting something all dragons are capable of inherently? Why not explain it as those particular dragons having that ability through study of magic? It makes them too much like Worgen, and again forces yet another class into using the blood elf rig (any male horde demon hunter has to use it, again).
I think the art for them is bad too. They look like Blizz was going for a fierce looking dragon man, then toned it down to look cuter to appeal to the gamers who insist they have cute characters. Now we have cute gecko people

I don't think this will be like Worgen at all. The fundamental difference between Dracthyr and Worgen is that there is a class for Dracthry to embrace their draconic lore. Worgen were pretty much just people in wolf costume, which diminished the fact that you were a werewolf. The Evoker ability set is all about being a dragon, since the Dracthyr form will feel more meaningful and complete than the Worgen form ever did.

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At a most base example, if I'm cooking for 100 people, most of whom want hamburgers, and I make a soyburger with wheatgrass, and those people find out that I'm a proud vegan who doesn't think people should eat meat, then its fair to complain that I let my personal preferences interfere with the product I provided. If they say "vegans as a-holes and I'm one too for doing that"..... well they might be right, but it definitely becomes a personal attack.

(you can argue whether or not "most" people wanted the race they are giving us or not, that is immaterial to any given person's distaste of it)

What part of this do you not understand that the person being trans has next to nothing to do with the art direction of the Dracthyr or the Visage forms? That's what makes it transphobic; The fact that some posters believe that the decision to design a major feature of a major MMO is the decision of one person, and one person alone. (Which in turn makes your example here as ridiculous and irrelelvant as your previous one) In reality, it's a decision made by an entire team of people, and has to be signed off by the highest levels of the development team.

I don't see anyone blaming Ion for how these characters look, when he stated plainly that part of their design process for the Dracthyr was them being casters, and thus having a more slender appearance. No, instead they're attacking the trans artist, who more than likely was simply following the design outlines given to them from people higher up the food chain.

Why do you think that is?

[Gumble]

Why do you think that is?

You are the one who told me the lead designer was trans.

You're making an argument fallacy of speaking as though your assumptions are fact, when you simply have no evidence for that.





The fundamental difference between Dracthyr and Worgen is that there is a class for Dracthry to embrace their draconic lore.
- Assumption that the class will embrace their lore. It could, or it may end up a generic caster that has a few dragon spells. We won't know until we get more information.

The Evoker ability set is all about being a dragon, since the Dracthyr form will feel more meaningful and complete than the Worgen form ever did.
- Assumption, see above. You hope they will be, but have no evidence that is what will happen. They may end up just as much of a skinsuit as worgen did.

What part of this do you not understand that the person being trans has next to nothing to do with the art direction of the Dracthyr or the Visage forms?
- Assumption that it has nothing to do with it. Maybe it doesn't, maybe its 100% the reason. We have no way of telling and are judging based on what we see.

That's what makes it transphobic; The fact that some posters believe that the decision to design a major feature of a major MMO is the decision of one person, and one person alone.
- Assuming people's phobias due to their assumptions, when their assumptions do have some reason to be believed if the story about Alex Afrasbi (sp) steering the content of WoW for 2-3 expansions due to his own interest in ruining Sylvanas' character is to be believed. Again, we don't know, all we see is the work produced.

(Which in turn makes your example here as ridiculous and irrelelvant as your previous one) In reality, it's a decision made by an entire team of people, and has to be signed off by the highest levels of the development team.
- Assumption. You don't know who made the decision. It may have been made by 1 designer and rubber stamped by her superiors, or it may have been made by 100 people working collaboratively. We don't know. Other people are assuming that if it was more people, it would have turned out better are also making an assumption.

I don't see anyone blaming Ion for how these characters look
- Then you aren't looking very hard or are seeing what you want to see..... Even I've seen those posts as Ion gets a lot of blame all the time.

No, instead they're attacking the trans artist, who more than likely was simply following the design outlines given to them from people higher up the food chain.
- Assuming they are attacking the artist and that the artist was simply following orders.




It feels you are very passionate about this, but purely on the side of "I assume I'm right and therefore everyone else is a ****** ". I'm starting to get what the more trolly people on these boards say about your posting habits. If you want to assume everything and work from a position of certainty and scream at those who disagree with you, I suppose you can do that, but it doesn't particularly make your claims relevant or enlightening.

[Temporaldrift]

I don't think this will be like Worgen at all. The fundamental difference between Dracthyr and Worgen is that there is a class for Dracthry to embrace their draconic lore. Worgen were pretty much just people in wolf costume, which diminished the fact that you were a werewolf. The Evoker ability set is all about being a dragon, since the Dracthyr form will feel more meaningful and complete than the Worgen form ever did.

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What part of this do you not understand that the person being trans has next to nothing to do with the art direction of the Dracthyr or the Visage forms? That's what makes it transphobic; The fact that some posters believe that the decision to design a major feature of a major MMO is the decision of one person, and one person alone. (Which in turn makes your example here as ridiculous and irrelelvant as your previous one) In reality, it's a decision made by an entire team of people, and has to be signed off by the highest levels of the development team.

I don't see anyone blaming Ion for how these characters look, when he stated plainly that part of their design process for the Dracthyr was them being casters, and thus having a more slender appearance. No, instead they're attacking the trans artist, who more than likely was simply following the design outlines given to them from people higher up the food chain.

Why do you think that is?

I’m not suggesting you should attack anyone for any type of art, but it for sure is not without the realm of possibility that the art style of heavily inflicted by a person who is trans. If they don’t believe in or subscribe to the idea of things should look ‘masculine’ or ‘feminine’ then it isn’t a wild idea to imagine they had that mindset going into designing the model.

I mean people did the exact same thing when female characters were all being designed with massive breasts and they weren’t exactly wrong for calling that out.

[Teriz]

You are the one who told me the lead designer was trans.

Because you asked.

You're making an argument fallacy of speaking as though your assumptions are fact, when you simply have no evidence for that.

No evidence of what? That major videogames have art teams led by a senior developer that work together to decide the direction of major game features?

Are you serious?

The fundamental difference between Dracthyr and Worgen is that there is a class for Dracthry to embrace their draconic lore.
- Assumption that the class will embrace their lore. It could, or it may end up a generic caster that has a few dragon spells. We won't know until we get more information.

The Evoker ability set is all about being a dragon, since the Dracthyr form will feel more meaningful and complete than the Worgen form ever did.
- Assumption, see above. You hope they will be, but have no evidence that is what will happen. They may end up just as much of a skinsuit as worgen did.

I suggest you watch some videos from the devs. That's exactly what they're doing with the Evoker class.

What part of this do you not understand that the person being trans has next to nothing to do with the art direction of the Dracthyr or the Visage forms?
- Assumption that it has nothing to do with it. Maybe it doesn't, maybe its 100% the reason. We have no way of telling and are judging based on what we see.

How would a single trans artist dictate the entire direction of a major game feature if the higher-ups didn't want that direction or supported that direction? What, you believe that every person working on WoW is trans with an agenda to purposely piss off their audience?

That's what makes it transphobic; The fact that some posters believe that the decision to design a major feature of a major MMO is the decision of one person, and one person alone.
- Assuming people's phobias due to their assumptions, when their assumptions do have some reason to be believed if the story about Alex Afrasbi (sp) steering the content of WoW for 2-3 expansions due to his own interest in ruining Sylvanas' character is to be believed. Again, we don't know, all we see is the work produced.

Again, if you honestly believe that a single person has complete control over the design on a major feature in one the biggest games on the planet, you really have no idea how game development works, and you're allowing your personal biases to cloud common sense.

(Which in turn makes your example here as ridiculous and irrelelvant as your previous one) In reality, it's a decision made by an entire team of people, and has to be signed off by the highest levels of the development team.
- Assumption. You don't know who made the decision. It may have been made by 1 designer and rubber stamped by her superiors, or it may have been made by 100 people working collaboratively. We don't know. Other people are assuming that if it was more people, it would have turned out better are also making an assumption.

Except its well known that major features for WoW are developed by teams, not one person. It is also well known that in large studios, major features go through multiple levels of approval before being greelit. So no, it isn't an assumption. This artist was almost assuredly given a design direction to go in, and their work was approved by a team of senior artist and approved by a senior art director which in turn was very likely approved again by another team of senior developers. If it was not approved at any step in that process, the artist would have been instructed to revamp the design.

I don't see anyone blaming Ion for how these characters look
- Then you aren't looking very hard or are seeing what you want to see..... Even I've seen those posts as Ion gets a lot of blame all the time.

Yeah, but not for this.

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I’m not suggesting you should attack anyone for any type of art, but it for sure is not without the realm of possibility that the art style of heavily inflicted by a person who is trans. If they don’t believe in or subscribe to the idea of things should look ‘masculine’ or ‘feminine’ then it isn’t a wild idea to imagine they had that mindset going into designing the model.

I mean people did the exact same thing when female characters were all being designed with massive breasts and they weren’t exactly wrong for calling that out.

And once again, what this artist produced was only produced at the behest of Blizzard. Major features for WoW are approved by a team, not one singular person.

I would recommend that before people comment on stuff like this, they should really learn how the process works. A single person does not completely control the direction or appearance of a major feature in a major video game.

[Temporaldrift]

Because you asked.



No evidence of what? That major videogames have art teams led by a senior developer that work together to decide the direction of major game features?

Are you serious?





I suggest you watch some videos from the devs. That's exactly what they're doing with the Evoker class.



How would a single trans artist dictate the entire direction of a major game feature if the higher-ups didn't want that direction or supported that direction? What, you believe that every person working on WoW is trans with an agenda to purposely piss off their audience?



Again, if you honestly believe that a single person has complete control over the design or a major feature in one the biggest games on the planet, you really have no idea how game development works, and you're allowing your personal biases to cloud common sense.



Except its well known that major features for WoW are developed by teams, not one person. It is also well known that in large studios, major features go through multiple levels of approval before being greelit. So no, it isn't an assumption. This artist was almost assuredly given a design direction to go in, and their work was approved by a team of senior artist and approved by a senior art director which in turn was very likely approved again by another team of senior developers. If it was not approved at any step in that process, the artist would have been instructed to revamp the design.



Yeah, but not for this.

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And once again, what this artist produced was only produced at the behest of Blizzard. Major features for WoW are approved by a team, not one singular person.

I would recommend that before people comment on stuff like this, they should really learn how the process works. A single person does not completely control the direction or appearance of a major feature in a major video game.

Do YOU know for sure how the process works? You’re talking a whole bunch about these things you know 100% about when the only way you would know this is if you worked for blizzard.

Also, you don’t need to have absolute 100% full control in order to influence the direction it goes. And I would take a wild guess and say the lead artist probably has a fairly significant say in the direction the art is going.

Just sayin, you can be condescending all you know but acting like you know this process in and out and act like it’s absolutely impossible for the LEAD ARTIST to influence the direction it goes is just ignorant imo.

[Teriz]

Do YOU know for sure how the process works? You’re talking a whole bunch about these things you know 100% about when the only way you would know this is if you worked for blizzard.

I've worked in the videogame industry, and I've worked for a few major studios. It's unheard of for lone artists to completely dictate the direction of major features on the level of a new race and new class in MMOs without input and approval from multiple sources. It simply doesn't happen, especially on something as massive as WoW.

Also, you don’t need to have absolute 100% full control in order to influence the direction it goes. And I would take a wild guess and say the lead artist probably has a fairly significant say in the direction the art is going.

Just sayin, you can be condescending all you know but acting like you know this process in and out and act like it’s absolutely impossible for the LEAD ARTIST to influence the direction it goes is just ignorant imo.

It's absolutely ridiculous to believe that the artist who designed the Dracthyr had any influence beyond their personal creativity heavily dictated by their managers. Again, at any point if their higher ups felt that the artist was betraying the direction they wanted to take the new WoW race, they would have been told to restart the design process, or at a more extreme level (if they simply can't reach the goal put forth by the team) be removed from the concept entirely and replaced with another artist.

That artist works for Blizzard, not the other way around.

Also FYI, Lead Artists work in teams, and work under Art Directors.