Biden / Harris Focused Discussion

[Elegiac]

I can be wrong sure, that doesn't mean I suddenly find the actions in the Ukraine any more or less worse.

You're entitled to your wrong opinion, I guess?

[Endus]

And you're still wrong because the Kremlin has been abundantly clear that one of its long term goals is the elimination of an independent Ukrainian identity which it views as a post-Soviet aberration. Try again.

This isn't even new. It goes all the way back to the early Soviet Union, when they did the same effective thing via the Holodomor. The intent to stamp out Ukrainian culture and identity and replace it with Rus culture and identity has been an ongoing genocidal effort; Putin's invasion is just the latest egregious step in that program.

[D3thray]

This isn't even new. It goes all the way back to the early Soviet Union, when they did the same effective thing via the Holodomor. The intent to stamp out Ukrainian culture and identity and replace it with Rus culture and identity has been an ongoing genocidal effort; Putin's invasion is just the latest egregious step in that program.

Yes, yes you’re all right, no need to argue over the ways in which you are right. I don’t think there’s a single person in this thread barring a few shills who thinks the Ukrainian war isn’t a monumental international crime perpetrated by the Putin regime. Unless some kind of official genocide designation somehow has a legal significance in dealing with the immediate issue of Russian bombs blowing up Ukrainian civilians, I don’t see how it matters.

[Endus]

Yes, yes you’re all right, no need to argue over the ways in which you are right. I don’t think there’s a single person in this thread barring a few shills who thinks the Ukrainian war isn’t a monumental international crime perpetrated by the Putin regime. Unless some kind of official genocide designation somehow has a legal significance in dealing with the immediate issue of Russian bombs blowing up Ukrainian civilians, I don’t see how it matters.

It's not so much that it "matters", but that denialism about genocides is a long-standing and execrable strategy for dehumanizing victims and acting as an apologist for mass murder. I don't really care if it's the Holocaust, the Armenian Genocide, or what's going on in Ukraine; denying the genocide's fucking awful regardless.

[Fugus]

Yes, yes you’re all right, no need to argue over the ways in which you are right. I don’t think there’s a single person in this thread barring a few shills who thinks the Ukrainian war isn’t a monumental international crime perpetrated by the Putin regime. Unless some kind of official genocide designation somehow has a legal significance in dealing with the immediate issue of Russian bombs blowing up Ukrainian civilians, I don’t see how it matters.

It matters because
1) It's real
2) It's important
3) This is a thread dedicated to Biden/Harris of which Russia's current events make it tangentially relevant here and directly relevant in the Ukraine thread in a subsection of the forums dedicated to politics.

[Themius]

It's not so much that it "matters", but that denialism about genocides is a long-standing and execrable strategy for dehumanizing victims and acting as an apologist for mass murder. I don't really care if it's the Holocaust, the Armenian Genocide, or what's going on in Ukraine; denying the genocide's fucking awful regardless.

I see you've ignored my question about America and what I think would count or not count as genocide.

- - - Updated - - -

You're entitled to your wrong opinion, I guess?

There literally was not consensus on this... so it is not really about, there are literally still stories about this just last week outlining the issues of why it could be hard to prove genocide and while you and Endus are whining, my very opinion is similar here:

Crimes against humanity are just as serious as genocide. There's no hierarchy here. Crimes against humanity is what the Nazis were charged with for the Holocaust. And so I know that the international community and victim groups tend to grab for this concept of genocide because we have a treaty on it and we don't yet have the treaty on crimes against humanity. So it seems as if they're less important. They're not less important. They are absolutely horrific crimes that involve attacks on a civilian population and the dehumanization of the human spirit and human beings. So it's really important to note that this idea of ethnic cleansing and crimes against humanity is a very, very serious crime.
>Leila Fadel

There should not be a hierarchy, and there isn't...there is a treaty so one seems less than the other, but that is not the real case, so the hyperbolic crap Endus was spewing at me, is just that... hyperbolic. We know they are committing crimes against humanity, if it is technically genocide yet I do not know, and nor do several experts on this very issue who are split. Though most of them feel it it could become genocide if Russia won based on possible actions they would take considering what they have said.

America fire bombed and killed hundreds of thousands in Japan, was that genocide? We killed hundred of thousands of civilians purposefully but the aim was terror through crimes against humanity with reckless abandon against the Japanese populace. We had tons of racist propaganda around the time dehumanising the "enemy" so maybe an argument could be made that yes the aim was genocide, but I think the aim was weapons testing, and committing terror attacks.

America helped sterilise hundreds of thousands of Peruvian women, was that genocide? Yes, without a doubt.

The horror of the crime of the first not being seen as genocide in Japan, does not make the deaths worth any less.

[Endus]

I see you've ignored my question about America and what I think would count or not count as genocide.

There wasn't much to respond to, since you admitted the USA has supported genocides (and I'll note, if we skip past the Middle East for a moment, the USA's existence is fundamentally and irrevocably based on genocide).

I don't consider equivocating over whose hands are dirtiest with the blood of said genocide a meaningful discussion. Saying it's okay that the USA was at a frivolously small remove isn't a reasonable response.

[Themius]

There wasn't much to respond to, since you admitted the USA has supported genocides (and I'll note, if we skip past the Middle East for a moment, the USA's existence is fundamentally and irrevocably based on genocide).

I don't consider equivocating over whose hands are dirtiest with the blood of said genocide a meaningful discussion. Saying it's okay that the USA was at a frivolously small remove isn't a reasonable response.

You miss the point. War crimes and crimes against humanity may not be considered genocide, but that doesn't make them somehow less than, as you seem to be making them.

And the question wasn't if America has committed genocides, but rather whether that specific action of reckless abandon for civilian lives was genocide, and often it is not genocide because the goal in mind is not a genocidal one but one of terror and apathy towards others, despite that being the case, it does not excuse the actions, something you have said I am doing.

[DarkTZeratul]

And the question wasn't if America has committed genocides, but rather whether that specific action of reckless abandon for civilian lives was genocide, and often it is not genocide because the goal in mind is not a genocidal one but one of terror and apathy towards others, despite that being the case, it does not excuse the actions, something you have said I am doing.

I mean, yes, simple reckless abandon for lives is not genocide, but I'm really not sure why you would even bring that up because that's not what's happening in Ukraine. Russia has stated their specific goal of eradicating Ukrainian culture, that is what crosses the line into genocide, that intentional goal of wiping out their Ukrainian-ness.

[Breccia]

So of course, the White House Correspondents' Association canceled their dinner because oh wait, it's Biden, he's not a self-absorbed whiny little bitch with no sense of humor.

I'm really excited to be here tonight with the only group of Americans with a lower approval rating than I have.

There's nothing I can say about the GOP that Kevin McCarthy hasn't already put on tape.

I know there are a lot of questions about whether we should gather here tonight because of COVID. Well, we're here to show the country that we're getting through this pandemic. Plus, everyone has to prove they are fully vaccinated and boosted. Just contact your favorite Fox News reporter. They're all here. Vaccinated and boosted.

I mean this from the bottom of my heart, that you, the free press, matter more than you ever did in the last century. You are the guardians of the truth.

"Wait, that wasn't a joke."

Nope. Just honesty. But I will close with a joke.

Just imagine if my predecessor came to this dinner this year. Now that would really have been a real coup.

[uuuhname]

I think it is horrible, but I also do not think it is at the level of genocide.

I'm really curious how many people need to die for it to count as a genocide. does it need to be a million? is that when we can get over our petty need to be technically correct about every fucking detail? in the face of an ongoing conflict? what the fuck is wrong with you?

[Breccia]

I'm really curious how many people need to die for it to count as a genocide.

Technically, 1, the definition is specific but not something some people agree with. Attempting to wipe out the people of a country, purely for being people of that country, is genocide. It's also war, terrorism, and a bunch of other things. It's different if you try to wipe out the people of a country for, for example, attacking you first, having supplies you want, you just like killing, etc.

[Ivanstone]

And the question wasn't if America has committed genocides, but rather whether that specific action of reckless abandon for civilian lives was genocide

Consider how the Nazis treated Jewish people and Slavic People. Obviously they were very specifically intent on killing all Jewish people and expended a lot of energy doing so. Despite that they still murdered more Slavic people then Jewish people and a lot of those deaths were from reckless abandon for civilian lives.

[Very Tired]

Are people blowing this Disinformation Governance board out of proportion or is it literally 1984 all over again?

[Edge-]

Are people blowing this Disinformation Governance board out of proportion or is it literally 1984 all over again?

Has big scary name. Is part of federal gub'mint. Was created under a Democrat.

This is literally Brave New 1984 Orwell!

(/s)

It's about as real as the, "DEMOCRATS COMING FUR UR GUNZ!" BS that crops up regularly.

[Breccia]

It's about as real as the, "DEMOCRATS COMING FUR UR GUNZ!" BS that crops up regularly.

"The government is going after disinformation! That affects me personally, because I thrive on it! But what has it done to hurt anyone?"
"You mean, besides the only armed insurrection the US has had post Civil War, caused directly by disinformation?"
"FUCK YOU CARLSON SAID TRUMP WON"

[Endus]

Are people blowing this Disinformation Governance board out of proportion or is it literally 1984 all over again?

Here's the core of why it's an incredibly stupid bit of fearmongering;

Everything the Big Brother government in 1984 said was a lie used to control people.

The "Ministry of Truth" was, in fact, where they produced and disseminated their disinformation propaganda.

An actual Ministry of Truth, that actually looks to defend truth, would be a good thing. That's why they lied and used the name.

Same with the Ministry of Peace (war), Ministry of Love (internal enforcement via fear tactics and brutality), and Ministry of Plenty (economics, note that everyone's struggling to get by, hardly "plenty".)

The point of 1984 was not that truth, peace, love, and plenty are bad things and governments pursuing them are evil. It's that fascist authoritarians lie.

[Zan15]

Are people blowing this Disinformation Governance board out of proportion or is it literally 1984 all over again?

95% of the people who cry "1984" most likely haven't read the book or clearly didn't understand it and should probably have someone explain it to them in words they can understand.

It's one of my key words in which I stop the conversation and walk away from the individual, channel, post.

[tehdang]

Are people blowing this Disinformation Governance board out of proportion or is it literally 1984 all over again?

Did people out the absurdity of the government running a disinformation board? Absolutely. Did people criticize the woman appointed to head it? Absolutely.

1984 implies it can actually do shit about what some bureaucrat thinks is not truthful, so for that part, it's being made to be a bigger deal than it really is. If this survives, I can't wait for somebody like Marjorie Taylor Greene being appointed head of it.

[Endus]

Did people out the absurdity of the government running a disinformation board? Absolutely.

What "absurdity"? People pointing to 1984 and thinking that demonstrated "absurdity" have never read the book or completely failed to understand even the most basic themes it talked about.

Did people criticize the woman appointed to head it? Absolutely.

Literally the only people I've seen doing so are far-right lunatics who'll be the obvious targets for scrutiny from such a board.

1984 implies it can actually do shit about what some bureaucrat thinks is not truthful, so for that part, it's being made to be a bigger deal than it really is. If this survives, I can't wait for somebody like Marjorie Taylor Greene being appointed head of it.

Wherein you fully and openly admit your own intentional malice and dishonest intent. You didn't "get" 1984 because you weren't sure why Winston didn't love Big Brother from the start, didn't you?