10.0 should remove the timer from Mythic+ dungeons...

[Alroxas]

It’s a poor version, actually.

One could argue your "idea" is a poorer version.

- failing the base timer grants no key level upgrade BUT no key level down and 3 ilvl XXX drops
- succeeding the base timer grants you a +1 key level and 3 ilvl XXX drops
- overperforming the base timer grants you a +2 key level and 4 ilvl XXX drops
- overperforming the base timer A LOT grants you a +3 key level and 5 ilvl XXX drops

From the surface, this just speaks to wanting more loot per dungeon run as if that would "solve" the issue of M+. Basically going to a baseline of 3 item drops from 2 but as I previously mentioned there is a system for providing more loot drops at the higher end.

Second, this idea that you need to "overperform" to get more loot would just INCREASE negative behavior. More players will want to quit the key because hey we're not moving at MDI levels of speed to "overperform".

Sure you might not get your key "depleted" but now you get to play the game of restarting keys. It will be just as frustrating and then you'll complain that players shouldn't be able to leave a M+ key unless the timer runs out or some other requirement.

[Novaice]

Keep the current iteration of M+ , but make it configurable. something like visions come to mind, but subtractive.

-current iteration - full rewards, achieves

-same scaling, disable affixes - lesser rewards, no achieves
-same scaling, disable timer- lesser rewards, no achieves

suggestion: maybe even a solo option (visions) or npc party. - lesser rewards, no achieves



also "blank" keys, so able to freely choose what dungeon the person wants to run instead of RNG gods choosing for them.

[Azharok]

Keep the current iteration of M+ , but make it configurable. something like visions come to mind, but subtractive.

-current iteration - full rewards, achieves

-same scaling, disable affixes - lesser rewards, no achieves
-same scaling, disable timer- lesser rewards, no achieves

suggestion: maybe even a solo option (visions) or npc party. - lesser rewards, no achieves



also "blank" keys, so able to freely choose what dungeon the person wants to run instead of RNG gods choosing for them.

I kinda like those ideas tbh. Would allow us to practice more pulls and stuff.

[Dudenoso]

But by qualifying the non 'sane' approach as optional you also brick your own argument, after all, running against a timer in mythic+ is also an option that 'sane' players don't have to commit to.

However, the rewards make you feel compelled to run Mythic+ against a timer despite your distaste for it. This same compulsion applies to running mythic+ at a snail's pace. By being able to perform better at this pace, players are able to get better rewards, and in their turn will find access to groups and guilds that set this as an item level requirement.

Either the 'meta' is that you rush against a timer and get the rewards, or the 'meta' is that you slowly push with full ability cooldowns without a timer.

Nah, I feel compelled to run hard dungeons because I like the gameplay. If it were up to me "gearing" wouldn't be a thing at all, but that'll never happen because gamers have a metaphorical hard-on when 100 becomes 130 and content becomes trivialized because of it.

I launch Sekiro every once in a while because those boss fights are good, there is no reward but the fights themselves.

Alternatively, they could cap the rewards in a number that can be beaten by good cooldown management and bad groups will have to do a lower key or accept the snail pace. Or reset cooldowns between fights and make each fight meaningful. Or something else. The problem here is that MMO players will always inevitably optimize the fun out of the game if it makes the game easy or gets them their +5% damage increase loot.

The hard contents either have a huge group and time commitment investment, or a crappy timer that's always ticking. It's a shame really, since in the "grouped up content" subject WoW has really nailed it in responsiveness and has all the neccessary things to make good challenging co-op stuff.

[Azharok]

Nah, I feel compelled to run hard dungeons because I like the gameplay. If it were up to me "gearing" wouldn't be a thing at all, but that'll never happen because gamers have a metaphorical hard-on when 100 becomes 130 and content becomes trivialized because of it.

I agree with your post, I'm just curious how you'd improve without gear though. Like the whole gear treadmill and progression of keys levels kinda goes hand in hand. It's equally rewarding for me to time a high key in BiS gear as it would be to time a lower key level in like the bare minimum ilvl you could scrounge together. If we removed gear from the equation and basically gave everyone BiS, you'd still have a huge decrepancy between the top and the bottom because of skill level (which can be negated in part by better gear to a point).

[Iain]

Nah, I feel compelled to run hard dungeons because I like the gameplay. If it were up to me "gearing" wouldn't be a thing at all, but that'll never happen because gamers have a metaphorical hard-on when 100 becomes 130 and content becomes trivialized because of it.

If you don't care about gear, then why care about a timer which only reward is better gear?

The hard contents either have a huge group and time commitment investment, or a crappy timer that's always ticking.

Yes, indeed. And between those two choices, the sane players will prefer the timer over being locked into a dungeon for a day.

[kaminaris]

You're grasping at straws here. The point of an enrage timer isn't about hitting it on purpose just so you can kill the boss while it's "enraged". I can also purposely deplete a key and complete it? What's your point? In M+ you can absolutely continue after the timer has ran out. What is stopping you? If you're unable to kill the boss without any sort of enrage or timer then that's on you, not on the timer that ran out.

No.
Point of enrage timer is to prevent weird ass composition and cheesing fights.
Point of M+ timer is literally arbitrary scoring system tool.

They are not comparable.

Explain how your progress is lost.

loot =/= progress. Also i never said it's being "lost". I specifically said rolled back.

You set yourself a goal ex all 20s in time. That is progress towards a goal. Just like killing all mythic raid bosses.

This makes no sense. Explain, please. If you fail in a M+, no one is stopping you from puling the boss or the trash pack again.

You are again thinking that loot is the goal. No, progress is not the same as loot. If your goal is to push key, there is absolutely no point in pulling trash or boss pack "again" in a failed run. I know it, you know it, everyone knows it. Since regardless of what you do, your next key is going to be lower. Might as well save some time and reset it.

Lol, top 100+ guilds have a shit ton more gear than top 2 or top 5 guilds. They're not playing the same game. What do you even mean by that? Of course it doesn't happen because these people know how to play the game and have loads more gear than the people that did it first.

Yeah no dude. They don't have "shitton more gear". Titanforging ain't a thing anymore. They do have better gear, regardless none of them often see enrage. Also top 100 is still like 1% top of 1% top.

Missing the timer happens because non-trivial keys start at more than +20. Especially after the first patch. Anything below that is just bad play from one or more people of the group. +20s are easily completable week 1 of a new m+ season. If you're gonna go with the good players not hitting enrage, I'll give you the good players doing M+. 15s are memeable with a group of 3-4 coordinated people. Boosts used to happen with a 4-man group with the 5th player AFKing. It's not that hard.

Missing the timer can be cause by multiple reasons, starting from low skill thru mistakes all the way up to internet connection issues. Fact remains = you can't try again.

Lol, that's plain bullshit. You can try everything you want in anything above 10 - there is no change from there aside from a numerical one. No one is asking you to push above a 15 (20s are for portals you'll only use this expansion and a negligible dps increase from conduits). It's on a want basis. Find a stable group and do it, not a random pug if you get offended by someone yelling at people for no reason. It's not rolling back your pgoress because if you can comlete a dungeon on a 15, you should be able to complete it on a 16. Some incremental changes may need to happen with pulls etc. There are enough ways to test that. No one is forcing you to restart the dungeon if you fuck up a pack. Your pgoress isn't being rolled back unless you decide to roll it back.

Anyone can complete almost any key if they have enough time. That's why there's a timer - to differentiate the better players from the worse ones. It's just not fun for everyone involved. It's the same with raids. You have a week to complete the raid, it resets whether you want it to or not. You have hall of fame for the good players and you have CE for the worse ones.

Dude, ive been pushing high keys, i know reality. People don't waste time on failed runs, even at lower levels UNLESS you specifically state it's a "chill run for weekly ticket". They only way to differentiate better players from worse ones would be to make a ladder of who did best key, timer and especially current dumb ass scoring system isn't good. And limits dungeon design severely. There are plenty of demerits of having timer while nearly no benefits.

[rhorle]

Why would mythic+ have to be designed for one sitting?

Because they are dungeons and dungeons are not designed to be consumed in multiple sittings. Your own post highlights things that would have to be changed to account for multiple days. If you keep M+ and 5 man raids you have trouble with creating compelling rewards because you are competing against something that gives loot out easier and faster.

[Eazy]

Enrage timer isn't the same as the m+ timer. Making non timered 15's available through the queue would not hurt key pushers at all and it would help a lot of people who can't get invited into keys and don't want to build their own groups. In regards to raiding I would suggest merging LFR and Normal and make it queueable or guild groupable. Heroic and Mythic should stay as they are, except Mythic should have the same lockout system as Heroic.

Not really. It would destroy the social aspect of the game.

There would've been plenty of LFG players that would've clown the whole run/leave/troll.

[Lathspell]

Not really. It would destroy the social aspect of the game.

There would've been plenty of LFG players that would've clown the whole run/leave/troll.

That already happens, except now it bricks the keyholders key too. If it was just another queue no one would care that much about leavers. I have no problem doing 15's in time right now, but I still think it would be better to have a mode where the timer is not there. What if someone needs to go afk for a bit because they have a family thing or need to open the door or something, with the timer the key is ruined for the whole party and it most likely disbands. Again the keyholders key is bricked.

Someone was saying that no one would do lower keys if there was an option to do a long "epic dungeon", why would that even matter? Anyone can do 15's pretty much at this point as long as they get invited, they are not hard to do. The hard thing is getting your first 15 done so you get your own key if you are dps. Maybe normal dungeons should be M0 difficulty, heroics +7 and mythics +15. All with queue.

[chiddie]

Not really. It would destroy the social aspect of the game.

There would've been plenty of LFG players that would've clown the whole run/leave/troll.

There all already chill runs running. You know that if they are chill, timer does not matter - to an extent -.

Problem is that if timer fails key is depleted do not many wanna chill. With no depletion you would see many more chill runs.

I still don’t understand why keys have to be downgraded if you fail timer, it’s not that you go down one GR in D3 if you don’t time your actual one, you just retry it and gg.

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One could argue your "idea" is a poorer version.




From the surface, this just speaks to wanting more loot per dungeon run as if that would "solve" the issue of M+. Basically going to a baseline of 3 item drops from 2 but as I previously mentioned there is a system for providing more loot drops at the higher end.

Second, this idea that you need to "overperform" to get more loot would just INCREASE negative behavior. More players will want to quit the key because hey we're not moving at MDI levels of speed to "overperform".

Sure you might not get your key "depleted" but now you get to play the game of restarting keys. It will be just as frustrating and then you'll complain that players shouldn't be able to leave a M+ key unless the timer runs out or some other requirement.

If it was for me, there would be no timer at all. Since I understand that this game has no way to measure skill but a timer, we should shift perspective by giving a little more rewards to ppl that overperform without punishing people that wanna just complete dungeons. Key not going up seems enough of a punishment for me, as it happens with D3 rifts.

[Penegal]

I would consider returning if they removed the timer on M+ and made part of the rewards weekly locked. Having a timer has never made me appreciate any videogame level... ever.

Fucking hate big groups and the time commitment neccessary for raiding.

I think an MMORPG, or WoW in particular, is just not the game for you, man.

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No.
Point of enrage timer is to prevent weird ass composition and cheesing fights.
Point of M+ timer is literally arbitrary scoring system tool.

They are not comparable.

No one said the point of an enrage timer isn't about prevention. In M+'s case the timer is preventing weird-ass behaviour that would force the gorup to waste 2 hours of their time to "complete" a dungeon out of their reach. It's literally the same. If you can't complete the dungeon in the alloted time, which is indeed generous, there are issues.

loot =/= progress. Also i never said it's being "lost". I specifically said rolled back.

You set yourself a goal ex all 20s in time. That is progress towards a goal. Just like killing all mythic raid bosses.

I never said loot is the progress, don't make it seem like I did. I was specifically referring to progress through said dungeon. If you can complete it, you can work on completing it in time. I can agree losing 1 level of your key is considered a rollback. However, it's necessary because it would be abused too much by competent players.

You are again thinking that loot is the goal. No, progress is not the same as loot. If your goal is to push key, there is absolutely no point in pulling trash or boss pack "again" in a failed run. I know it, you know it, everyone knows it. Since regardless of what you do, your next key is going to be lower. Might as well save some time and reset it.

I am, again, not even thinking or mentioning loot in any way shape or form. Why do you keep saying this? I've specifically mentioned gear to explain something. It's not at all relevant to anything you're replying to. If you complete the dungeon even with a depleted timer, you will know how to better play it next time. If you give up mid-way and go out then you'll hit the same issue next time and get rolled back again. You can choose how to gain from the failed run. If your point is to push a key with a pug - yes. If you have an organized group, you can always go over what you failed and try to fix it and continue the run to see the rest of it at this level. To see what the damage intake is, what the damage output is. How healing copes with the intake etc. There are many ways to progress if you're pushing your key above your comfort zone with a dedicated group. Not much can be gained from pugs, like in raids.

Yeah no dude. They don't have "shitton more gear". Titanforging ain't a thing anymore. They do have better gear, regardless none of them often see enrage. Also top 100 is still like 1% top of 1% top.

Firstly, having almost an entire difficulty increase of gear is extremely major. Have you seen the difference in performance the top guilds achieve from first kills to farm? They absolutely decimate bosses. The play is completely different than what yo uare thinking of. Titanforging only went a bit over max iLvl. The issue with Titanforging was that you could easily get geared with lower difficulties if you were lucky. It is absolutely a shit-ton more gear in the grand scheme of things, compared to when they kill the boss for the first time. People fail DPS checks with maxed out gear in mythic raids.
Secondly, the top 1% of the top 1% for 100 is 1 million. Not that many guilds / players that raid. I was going over raider.io for past tiers a few months ago, you had around 10-12k guilds participating from normal to mythic total. A lot of normal guilds run like 10-12 ppl, too. But even if you average it out to 20 people, that's still not enough.
Lastly, the people at the top know how to maximize their character. Not everyone in the top 100 guilds is as good.

Missing the timer can be cause by multiple reasons, starting from low skill thru mistakes all the way up to internet connection issues. Fact remains = you can't try again.

You can try again, just at one level lower. No one is stopping you. All of those reasons to fail are also in raids. The dynamic in raids is different so the punishment is different. Instead of lowerling the damage of the boss, you just restart from the beginning of the fight. The entire M+ is one gauntlet you run. Therefore, when you fail, you restart it. The point of complaint is that you get punished if you don't complete it in time. If you fail a raid boss you die, you can't complete it if you fail.

Dude, ive been pushing high keys, i know reality. People don't waste time on failed runs, even at lower levels UNLESS you specifically state it's a "chill run for weekly ticket". They only way to differentiate better players from worse ones would be to make a ladder of who did best key, timer and especially current dumb ass scoring system isn't good. And limits dungeon design severely. There are plenty of demerits of having timer while nearly no benefits.

Not really. People do them more now because of the scoring system. If you don't majorly fuck up a key, you can still continue. Sometimes people remain unless it's a really high key and it's a complete waste of time, which is fair. In the majority of cases you will not keep the group together, even if you have the same key level. There are enough reasons for the level drop to occur. The scoring system isn't the best. Even in raider.io it wasn't that good.

The timer is a great way to keep the dungeons relevatnt. It limits design in a way because the dungeons need to have some sort of constraints to be doable in m+ in a reasonable amount of time but it's not as bad as you make it out to be. You will eventually get sick of them over the course of the expansion.

Anyway, I probably won't be replying anymore as I'm bored of this and I cba.

[kaminaris]

No one said the point of an enrage timer isn't about prevention. In M+'s case the timer is preventing weird-ass behaviour that would force the gorup to waste 2 hours of their time to "complete" a dungeon out of their reach. It's literally the same. If you can't complete the dungeon in the alloted time, which is indeed generous, there are issues.

It is not even remotely the same. Already explained major key differences.

I never said loot is the progress, don't make it seem like I did. I was specifically referring to progress through said dungeon. If you can complete it, you can work on completing it in time. I can agree losing 1 level of your key is considered a rollback. However, it's necessary because it would be abused too much by competent players.

Let them play whatever the fuck they want to play it. They want to spend 5 hours doing one dungeon, just fucking let them. Stop handholding players.

I am, again, not even thinking or mentioning loot in any way shape or form. Why do you keep saying this? I've specifically mentioned gear to explain something. It's not at all relevant to anything you're replying to. If you complete the dungeon even with a depleted timer, you will know how to better play it next time. If you give up mid-way and go out then you'll hit the same issue next time and get rolled back again. You can choose how to gain from the failed run. If your point is to push a key with a pug - yes. If you have an organized group, you can always go over what you failed and try to fix it and continue the run to see the rest of it at this level. To see what the damage intake is, what the damage output is. How healing copes with the intake etc. There are many ways to progress if you're pushing your key above your comfort zone with a dedicated group. Not much can be gained from pugs, like in raids.

Because you clearly think loot = progress. Simple fact: if you want to push keys, once key is known to not be in time you leave. That happens for everyone, even top tier super high key pushers, they make mistakes too, they leave keys too. People make mistakes, shouldn't be surprising.

Firstly, having almost an entire difficulty increase of gear is extremely major.

It is another reason against timer, since your gear progression is RNG dependent and timer is static for everyone.

You can try again, just at one level lower. No one is stopping you.

But I don't want to waste time one level lower, why would I? Thats like saying in single player games if you die to a boss you should be teleported to previous boss and saying "just try again with easier boss".

I would be fucking pissed if due to one failure game suddenly decided to make boss easier. Let alone porting me to previous boss.

Not really. People do them more now because of the scoring system. If you don't majorly fuck up a key, you can still continue. Sometimes people remain unless it's a really high key and it's a complete waste of time, which is fair. In the majority of cases you will not keep the group together, even if you have the same key level. There are enough reasons for the level drop to occur. The scoring system isn't the best. Even in raider.io it wasn't that good.

The timer is a great way to keep the dungeons relevatnt. It limits design in a way because the dungeons need to have some sort of constraints to be doable in m+ in a reasonable amount of time but it's not as bad as you make it out to be. You will eventually get sick of them over the course of the expansion.

Anyway, I probably won't be replying anymore as I'm bored of this and I cba.

You can still fail key even without any failure, thats how it is in higher keys. People who want to push don't bother because its waste of time, hell, even when i played in premade 5 guild mates we literally used to leave keys the first sign of "hmm this may not be timed", there is no damn point in continue if your goal is to push keys because of retarded system blizzard has made.

[Lathspell]

Imagine if there was a depletion mechanic in raiding where if you miss the timer on mythic you need to clear the raid on heroic again before doing mythic.

[Northy]

The main reason I don't do mythic plus is because of the timer constantly ticking down driving my anxiety up the wall.

[Elbob]

Imagine if there was a depletion mechanic in raiding where if you miss the timer on mythic you need to clear the raid on heroic again before doing mythic.

The difference is you get loot from a failed timer in M+ you don't get anything when you fail a raid boss. Both content types have a time based system the players must compete against but have different reward structures. Raid bosses can only be looted once a week and M+ repeated so raids are more punishing to failing the encounter, atleast in the sense that you get 0 rewards.

I think the reward systems are fine for both content types. Repeatable long encounter M+, and 1 time short encounter raid fights. If you are truely salty keys go down a single stage for failure, would you pref they don't go down at all but you get no loot at the end?

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The main reason I don't do mythic plus is because of the timer constantly ticking down driving my anxiety up the wall.

you can just hide the timer with an addon. I'm sure this won't be a good answer as you know its still there but if your grp does well you get better rewards. If not they are slightly worse but you can always try again as the actual loot barely changes in ilvl from 1 level to another.

[chiddie]

The difference is you get loot from a failed timer in M+ you don't get anything when you fail a raid boss. Both content types have a time based system the players must compete against but have different reward structures. Raid bosses can only be looted once a week and M+ repeated so raids are more punishing to failing the encounter, atleast in the sense that you get 0 rewards.

I think the reward systems are fine for both content types. Repeatable long encounter M+, and 1 time short encounter raid fights. If you are truely salty keys go down a single stage for failure, would you pref they don't go down at all but you get no loot at the end?

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you can just hide the timer with an addon. I'm sure this won't be a good answer as you know its still there but if your grp does well you get better rewards. If not they are slightly worse but you can always try again as the actual loot barely changes in ilvl from 1 level to another.

Maybe it’s time to start being honest with ourselves.

You either play for the loot or you don’t. If you don’t (and many here claim they just play for the challenge) a non timed version of M+ should be irrelevant to them. In D3 people clear rifts failing the timer all the time while pushing, they get the EXACT loot of people timing them and - surprise - no one gives a fukk about that because only the leaderboard matters.

No on is saying you can’t push, what it’s not clear to me is why you also want people who are not interested in pushing to push nonetheless.

You may say that no one is forcing me to just chill and ignore the timer BUT unfortunately M+ is not a single player activity. With the “punishments” applying if timer is failed, finding random people who just wanna chill is really hard, especially if you are a dps.

[Lathspell]

The difference is you get loot from a failed timer in M+ you don't get anything when you fail a raid boss. Both content types have a time based system the players must compete against but have different reward structures. Raid bosses can only be looted once a week and M+ repeated so raids are more punishing to failing the encounter, atleast in the sense that you get 0 rewards.

I think the reward systems are fine for both content types. Repeatable long encounter M+, and 1 time short encounter raid fights. If you are truely salty keys go down a single stage for failure, would you pref they don't go down at all but you get no loot at the end?

That doesn't make any sense. What is the purpose of depleting keys? Who would it hurt to be able to just try again like you can in raiding? Should bosses in raids give more loot if you kill them faster?

In my ideal world the whole keystone system would be removed and just add a slider to the keystone font where you choose what you want to do from a list of difficulties.

[rhorle]

Imagine if there was a depletion mechanic in raiding where if you miss the timer on mythic you need to clear the raid on heroic again before doing mythic.

You can't really compare it like that though because of the fundamental design differences. But you can fail at a boss so long that the trash respawns. It also ignores how Mythic 0 is not timed and does not regress on failure. So until there is a Raid+ there is no way to compare the two currently. With how Blizzard is created fated raids and off-tier seasons we may see something like Raid+ in the future however.

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No on is saying you can’t push, what it’s not clear to me is why you also want people who are not interested in pushing to push nonetheless.

If those people don't care about pushing why are they in M+ to begin with? You also can't compare Diablo 3 to WoW when one game is built around being a loot pinata/shower and the other is more selective in loot rewards. People don't care about the loot in D3 because most of it is meaningless as a reward. Just as I am confident that most of the people that hate the M+ timer wouldn't care about it if the reward was only greys.

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What is the purpose of depleting keys?

It is pretty clear the purpose is to put a group or key-owner into content they can succeed at. If they fail at X then they get put back to Y. Without a keystone I think we would just see the easiest dungeon always picked with the others rarely picked. Sort of like how badge farming in TBC was Mech runs because it was an efficient farm. If things were just a slider you couldn't have forced variety.

[chiddie]

You can't really compare it like that though because of the fundamental design differences. But you can fail at a boss so long that the trash respawns. It also ignores how Mythic 0 is not timed and does not regress on failure. So until there is a Raid+ there is no way to compare the two currently. With how Blizzard is created fated raids and off-tier seasons we may see something like Raid+ in the future however.

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If those people don't care about pushing why are they in M+ to begin with? You also can't compare Diablo 3 to WoW when one game is built around being a loot pinata/shower and the other is more selective in loot rewards. People don't care about the loot in D3 because most of it is meaningless as a reward. Just as I am confident that most of the people that hate the M+ timer wouldn't care about it if the reward was only greys.

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It is pretty clear the purpose is to put a group or key-owner into content they can succeed at. If they fail at X then they get put back to Y. Without a keystone I think we would just see the easiest dungeon always picked with the others rarely picked. Sort of like how badge farming in TBC was Mech runs because it was an efficient farm. If things were just a slider you couldn't have forced variety.

They are in M+ because it’s the only “casual” way to improve your character after you finish with base upgrades after 1-2 months.

I never claimed casuals that do M+ are not interested in loot, it’s the exact opposite, they basically HAVE to do them for the loot because there’s no other solo or small group activity available that grants gear progression.

Loot in D3 is not meaningless by any meaning, the difference is that in D3 it’s used to push higher rifts and you are acknowledged NOT for having it BUT for how far you can go. That’s why no one cares if I have better gear than you even if I’m not able to clear rifts as high as you can. The loot cap is GR90, a level that anyone with a working brain and a proper build can reach in a week every season.