Why does wow's community come off as so entitled?

[Hey There Guys its Metro]

Because they are.
I try to blame the year we live in though.
Everyone is always worried about placating others in 2022 instead of actually doing their job.
So all the players of the game bring that same mentality to the game. They want it made exactly how they like, without any consideration for the fact that it is supposed to offer things like challenge, time sink, and require planning and consideration.

The big issue with the game though is once you give these type of players an inch, they demand a mile.
No coming back from this now, which is a shame.

I just hope it works out. Because everyone keeps saying "look at all the subs lost" yet they are basically just letting the community make the video game right now, and people still aren't satisfied.

I think it was better when the developers made the game, and we played it. At least it was more coherent. No wild changes every few months.

[Battlebeard]

It is not required, you just have a choice because guildless people are not making groups but only joining them. There is not a chance that I won't get picked up on my mage going to a +15 weekly just simply because of my score and ilvl. If there were only 3 people applying for DPS spots, yeah, maybe people would give you a chance, but there are way more people applying and there are always people like me who just need few weeklies to finish the vault

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You are entitled. Community decides what is the norm and you think you can get away with being below the norm. That's being entitled. You don't want to lead - aka put more work in to make up for being behind the norm, but you want same rewards - entitled.

Blizzard set the norm with the game design. I will never accept that players change that, never.

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But that's not how the pug community has ever worked.

If you want to get into a raid with the minimum sensible requirements, then you need to join a guild. If somebody is doing a pug, they are going to ask for higher than reasonable requirements. That's just always how the game has been.

It sounds like you're trying to play a multiplayer game as a single player experience which just doesn't work.

I don't have any friends and I don't like playing in groups, of course I try to do it the single player way.

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Yeah that's low ilvl. You can easily get much higher with just a few M+ items.
If anyone signs up with this for my normal group I will, correctly, assume they only did ZM + LFR + Legendaries. That tells me that person is a low effort player who wants all of the progression with none of the actual effort.

It's impossible to get into M+, and it's impossible to get into Normal, hence, it becomes impossible to get much higher ilvl than that.

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It’s all about efficiancy.

People don’t have unlimited hours in a day, So things has to go as fast and smooth as possible.

Yeah, you are right, sadly. It's disgusting, depressing and quite frankly heartbreaking to see what this great game has become.

I always had the view that people who try to play efficiently, need to take a serious look at their life, cause it's an unhealthy way to play. This is a hobby, it's suppose to be fun, and not ever taken too seriously, yet people tend to do that, which is messed up. I honestly see it disturbing when people rush things and play with efficiency, like this is their job.

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Stop playing then.

I played this game for over 20 000 hours, I still love my main that I played always, I don't just wanna quit, I want the game to change for the better, so I can continue to enjoy the good parts.

[Azharok]

I always had the view that people who try to play efficiently, need to take a serious look at their life, cause it's an unhealthy way to play. This is a hobby, it's suppose to be fun, and not ever taken too seriously, yet people tend to do that, which is messed up. I honestly see it disturbing when people rush things and play with efficiency, like this is their job.

I think you're confusing a few things. Running raids or M+ or PVP even, is about efficiency.

Can we kill X boss before Y timer ?
Can we run the key fast enough to time it ?
Do we have enough CC/Damage to pop the enemy flag carrier ?

It is a video game, and most video games are made to be fun, the fun comes with some form of challenge, a goal to attain. If the goal is too hard to get too, people quit, if the goal is too easy, people quit.

This is why there are 4 difficulty levels for raids (if you wanna count LFR), this is also why there is an infinite scaling system for M+, this is also why there is a ranking system in PVP so you get paired with equally skilled opponents (on paper anyway).

The point of a hobby is to have fun at it, and possibly get good at it, no-one who does mini painting slaps on paint and thinks "why bother putting more", normal people tend to want to get good at the things they do in their free time. To suggest it's unhealthy is a bit mean imho.

I have fun being efficient, challenging myself with harder and harder content. If I wanted a chill game I'd play the Sims or Animal Crossing.

It's not impossible to get into M+ if you post your key, it's also not impossible to run raids if you get the group going. Again you're making excuses ... If you want a single player experience, just play a single player game, there is nothing wrong with that. But to suggest that the game should cater to you is both selfish and useless.

[Celement]

The average new mythic+ dungeons in the first two seasons of shadowlands was 4. It's the exact same number of new mythic+ dungeons. It's just staggered so you don't have to run the same dungeons for two seasons.

That said, 8 new dungeons is fine when you can point to other new types of content, but where the hell is the content here? We are getting 8 new dungeons, a raid... and world quests... and... what else? No new battlegrounds, no new types of content. If they are saying "fuck it" to new types of content, that's fine, but then that should be paired with "And that's why this expansion will have 12 new dungeons at launch!"

I've been telling all of you for a long time that the game is clearly losing budget and everyone told me I don't know what I am talking about and it is just dandy and fine if all the casual players leave. If this isn't a sign of a cut budget, what would be? BFA had ten dungeons, a raid, warfronts, new zones, and island expeditions. We can quibble about the quality of warfronts and island expeditions (and the quality was bad) but that was clearly a place that resources were spent. Where are those resources now?

I have an answer for you: They're gone. Those resources are going to other games, because Blizzard doubled down and doubled down and doubled down on making a game for hardcore players only and now the game doesn't have the players to justify big expenditures. Congratulations, you got your wish. Enjoy your low calorie expansion.

If this is the case and I know enough it isnt but I want to entertain this line of thought. If this was true it is the strongest arguement in the world to never ever cater to the entitled players of your game.

If they squandered their success making pointless, dull repetitive, and tedious content then they will keep losing ground till a rival swallows them up and that's a good thing.

Somewhere along the line it feels like they were dumb enough to think a real pc game that is sold for actual money and a subscription could be designed like a facebook game and survive by simply generating rewards for mindless content.

I don't see dragonflight as budget cuts myself but rather a mix of brain drain and desperately rushing a product out to try and triage the disaster of shadowlands. I don't really know if wow can go back to being a casual focused game like it was prelegion. I think the rot of " everyone gets a trophy" and "everyone is special" runs to deep.

Just look at their ideas for professions.... in an effort to make the most passive mindless aspect of wow make people feel "special" they are going to add a massive amount of tedium and annoyance to it.

[NineSpine]

If this is the case and I know enough it isnt but I want to entertain this line of thought. If this was true it is the strongest arguement in the world to never ever cater to the entitled players of your game.

If they squandered their success making pointless, dull repetitive, and tedious content then they will keep losing ground till a rival swallows them up and that's a good thing.

Somewhere along the line it feels like they were dumb enough to think a real pc game that is sold for actual money and a subscription could be designed like a facebook game and survive by simply generating rewards for mindless content.

I don't see dragonflight as budget cuts myself but rather a mix of brain drain and desperately rushing a product out to try and triage the disaster of shadowlands. I don't really know if wow can go back to being a casual focused game like it was prelegion. I think the rot of " everyone gets a trophy" and "everyone is special" runs to deep.

Just look at their ideas for professions.... in an effort to make the most passive mindless aspect of wow make people feel "special" they are going to add a massive amount of tedium and annoyance to it.

Here is what really happened:

Blizzard was throwing a party.
You demanded all the food have peanuts in it because you love peanuts.
Half the people invited are allergic to peanuts.
You stomped your feet and cried and whined that you wanted peanuts and everyone allergic to peanuts should stay home.
You got your fucking peanuts and now so many people cancelled that they scaled the party down and cancelled all the food.
You are still sitting there, arms folded, stomping your feet, pointing your fingers at everyone else like the petulant, arrogant child you are.
And the best part is that you still think you are the adult here.

[Celement]

Here is what really happened:

Blizzard was throwing a party.
You demanded all the food have peanuts in it because you love peanuts.
Half the people invited are allergic to peanuts.
You stomped your feet and cried and whined that you wanted peanuts and everyone allergic to peanuts should stay home.
You got your fucking peanuts and now so many people cancelled that they scaled the party down and cancelled all the food.
You are still sitting there, arms folded, stomping your feet, pointing your fingers at everyone else like the petulant, arrogant child you are.
And the best part is that you still think you are the adult here.

Has this ever actually happened and if so can you make a note of when?

I understand that there is this rhetoric the top end hates the terrible players and is out to ruin there content but it has never made much sense to me.

I recall players saying lfr would turn into a dumpster fire that would invalidate dungeons solely to give whiny players free loot and till the end of wod that was a pretty accurate take.

Usually what happens is the top end players warn something is going to be fucking awful if they dumb it down for the terrible players who want free rewards. Blizzard ignores the feedback and ap,azerite,corruption, islands, etc are born.

I am going to actually really drive this home past the finish line. It is exceedingly rare you ever see players outside of mythic and higher rated pvp EVER bitch about the content. I don't think content matters to them if I'm being blunt. Nearly every time they complain it comes down to rewards and once they have those rewards they are scornful that no one cares about those rewards anymore.

It comes off at least to me. That they have this weird desire to be a hero in an mmo where they are at best mediocre or below. It isnt something I can easily put myself into their shoes with because if that was my goal ( it isn't) I would just work at getting better.

[Nalam the Venom]

This is a hobby, it's suppose to be fun, and not ever taken too seriously

.

Kinda weird to me that there are still people out there with that outlook on MMORPGs.

I have a few games i'd play "Just for fun" Like Swtor, Vindictus, Warframe, Black desert as i'm not as invested in those and don't ever plan to play them at the true endgame grind or efficiany (Tho it's been years since i've touched most of those, It's just stuff i've played previously and how i felt about them when i played them)

WoW & Blade and soul are the two main games i have atm, WoW is still more of a side activty that i don't engage with too much any more tho, Not played it since Korthia patch, But might get back into it, I heard Surv hunter is said to be very fun atm with the tier set bonus.

If you are invested and play something a lot tho, i don't see how you can not fall into the "Need to be efficiant for max progression" mentality.

[Azharok]

I have an answer for you: They're gone. Those resources are going to other games, because Blizzard doubled down and doubled down and doubled down on making a game for hardcore players only and now the game doesn't have the players to justify big expenditures. Congratulations, you got your wish. Enjoy your low calorie expansion.

Where did they cater to the hardcore ? The only hardcore catering I saw is adding Mythic raid difficulty, and even that was more like bad players complaining they couldn't complete Heroic, so they shifted some stuff around and created Flex for both Normal and Heroic.

[MoanaLisa]

Where did they cater to the hardcore ? The only hardcore catering I saw is adding Mythic raid difficulty, and even that was more like bad players complaining they couldn't complete Heroic, so they shifted some stuff around and created Flex for both Normal and Heroic.

Personally I think the "cater to the hard core" is the wrong argument. A better argument is years of raid or die (read 'leave' for die) design which attempted to get people with no interest in raiding into what the developers feel is their best and most important content. That last is really arguable but the fact remains that years of trying to get people to be interested in something they clearly are not is not working for them. That was very clear in Warlords which was a decent expansion for raids but totally lacked in things to do if you weren't interested in that.

The raiding community works on exclusion instead of inclusion—working to grow the raiding base—so of course it continues to gradually shrink through attrition. Your argument above, which sounds reasonable, is still based on "well, why aren't you raiding?"

That's not the answer if they want to return to better business. So no, I don't think it's an issue of catering to a clearly undefined "hard core." That misses the point entirely.

Ion has talked three times that I'm aware of now about providing an expansion that will allow people to play and progress in the content they prefer. If he and the team delivers on that promise then the issue will become more moot. There are signs in the last SL patch that they might be waking up to this. We'll see.

[Azharok]

Personally I think the "cater to the hard core" is the wrong argument. A better argument is years of raid or die (read 'leave' for die) design which attempted to get people with no interest in raiding into what the developers feel is their best and most important content. That last is really arguable but the fact remains that years of trying to get people to be interested in something they clearly are not is not working for them. That was very clear in Warlords which was a decent expansion for raids but totally lacked in things to do if you weren't interested in that.

The raiding community works on exclusion instead of inclusion—working to grow the raiding base—so of course it continues to gradually shrink through attrition. Your argument above, which sounds reasonable, is still based on "well, why aren't you raiding?"

That's not the answer if they want to return to better business. So no, I don't think it's an issue of catering to a clearly undefined "hard core." That misses the point entirely.

Ion has talked three times that I'm aware of now about providing an expansion that will allow people to play and progress in the content they prefer. If he and the team delivers on that promise then the issue will become more moot. There are signs in the last SL patch that they might be waking up to this. We'll see.

I personnaly don't raid. But I like that they keep making them. More due to time constraint and sticking to schedule that lack of want. It also allows me to stay clear of guild drama, because there is usually a core of raiders in every guild that are top notch, and then you have the rest which are usually not very competent and drag everyone down :/.

[MoanaLisa]

But I like that they keep making them (raids).

I do too. They are signature content for the game. The only point I'm trying to make is that there is a sizable universe of players who might stick around longer if there was progression in the non-instanced content they prefer. Now someone is likely to infer that I'm saying everyone should have mythic level gear. I'm not really but there should be a sense that my character(s) is/are progressing. If that means a high ilevel that is acquired weeks or months after raiders have their shot at it I'm OK with that but it's not a requirement. It could be gear that works better in the world. They've hand-waved at that, somewhat unsuccessfully, but this is something that requires some iteration and a more straightforward way of getting at it. Many casual players that don't visit forums or watch videos have no freaking idea how to navigate the current design of systems within systems within systems (ad infinitum like Russian dolls). So they leave. It's money on the table for Blizzard. If they can figure it out it's a lot of money. Badges and simple rep would be a return to former form as a start.

But no, raid content is fine. The raiding community should be aware that exclusion only hurts them. Bringing in less experienced players and training them up is more work but also a better potential win for the long term viability of the content. We already know that LFR has propped up raiding return-on-investment since the start. There are better solutions but they require more work and are decidedly less efficient. So here we are.

[Johnjohn]

Sometimes I think some of you live in an alternate universe. Self centeredness does that I guess.


It's bizzare to me that you come to that conclusion OP when it's the opposite that is the problem. The average WoW player is terrible in how they treat other players. They have no problems brazenly insulting other people if their gear is not up to snuff and may result in them being slightly delayed in their progression. Blizzard have also created this monster as well.

This is true for most group content and pvp. I feel way less pressure to min max gear in other games as the game itself as well as the players are just far more forgiving.

Get gud mindset of players and Blizzard is what makes this game cutthroat with gear, which is why people are so adamant about fighting for it.

[schwarzkopf]

... people can accept the elitistic game that this has become ....

- People asking for ????

I've cut your comment down the basics - you are complaining about the GAME, then go on to state the stuff PEOPLE do.

The 'fans' of this game are no different to the fans of ANY game, movie, TV show or what ever ... they all hate the thing they watch/play and all guarantee a monkey could do it better.

It is a universal thing.

[Celement]

Personally I think the "cater to the hard core" is the wrong argument. A better argument is years of raid or die (read 'leave' for die) design which attempted to get people with no interest in raiding into what the developers feel is their best and most important content. That last is really arguable but the fact remains that years of trying to get people to be interested in something they clearly are not is not working for them. That was very clear in Warlords which was a decent expansion for raids but totally lacked in things to do if you weren't interested in that.

The raiding community works on exclusion instead of inclusion—working to grow the raiding base—so of course it continues to gradually shrink through attrition. Your argument above, which sounds reasonable, is still based on "well, why aren't you raiding?"

That's not the answer if they want to return to better business. So no, I don't think it's an issue of catering to a clearly undefined "hard core." That misses the point entirely.

Ion has talked three times that I'm aware of now about providing an expansion that will allow people to play and progress in the content they prefer. If he and the team delivers on that promise then the issue will become more moot. There are signs in the last SL patch that they might be waking up to this. We'll see.

I can't really see how it has been raid or die. Raids have only at best been consistent they haven't grown nor expanded over the years. If anything there has been more and more of a push to prompt up every other style of gameplay much to the detriment of the game.

Every power progression system wasn't designed around raid game play. Warfront, isles, visions, mage tower, torghast and more are all content they tried to add

The main failing of that content was for the most part bar visions ( I think those failed because of how high the cost of failure was and their over reliance on their own talent system) was designed to be completed by people who can barely turn on the game.

Raids are only focused on because of how powerful the rewards are and how appealing that aspect is for players driven by clout. If you moved the ilv to mythic 20s you would see the same reaction from the playerbase.

[Delekii]

Has this ever actually happened and if so can you make a note of when?

I understand that there is this rhetoric the top end hates the terrible players and is out to ruin there content but it has never made much sense to me.

I recall players saying lfr would turn into a dumpster fire that would invalidate dungeons solely to give whiny players free loot and till the end of wod that was a pretty accurate take.

Usually what happens is the top end players warn something is going to be fucking awful if they dumb it down for the terrible players who want free rewards. Blizzard ignores the feedback and ap,azerite,corruption, islands, etc are born.

I am going to actually really drive this home past the finish line. It is exceedingly rare you ever see players outside of mythic and higher rated pvp EVER bitch about the content. I don't think content matters to them if I'm being blunt. Nearly every time they complain it comes down to rewards and once they have those rewards they are scornful that no one cares about those rewards anymore.

It comes off at least to me. That they have this weird desire to be a hero in an mmo where they are at best mediocre or below. It isnt something I can easily put myself into their shoes with because if that was my goal ( it isn't) I would just work at getting better.

Every single post you make completely confirms your bias, and I don't think you have any idea you even do it.

Every point you think you make relies on a basis of opinion that you imply is fact, or requires the acceptance of being fact to work as a point.

You should try to reread your posts with a focus on dividing what is actually a fact and what is your opinion of that fact, because the two frequently do not align from the point of view of players in those positions.

I can't really see how it has been raid or die. Raids have only at best been consistent they haven't grown nor expanded over the years. If anything there has been more and more of a push to prompt up every other style of gameplay much to the detriment of the game.

Every power progression system wasn't designed around raid game play. Warfront, isles, visions, mage tower, torghast and more are all content they tried to add

The main failing of that content was for the most part bar visions ( I think those failed because of how high the cost of failure was and their over reliance on their own talent system) was designed to be completed by people who can barely turn on the game.

Raids are only focused on because of how powerful the rewards are and how appealing that aspect is for players driven by clout. If you moved the ilv to mythic 20s you would see the same reaction from the playerbase.

Here is a good example. You claim to be unable to see how the game is "raid or die", despite the fact that raiding is by far the fast way to accrue ilvl rewards after a very low entry level. All of the things you listed, to more or lesser degrees, relied on ilvl as a driving factor in progression or success, while not meaningfully contributing to ilvl.

You're right; if the ilvl was moved to mythic 20s the focus would shift to mythic 20s, because it is the reality that ilvl contributes to success in every facet of the game. For casual players even more so than elite players, ilvl is paramount to improving success rates, while being available from extremely limited sources after a certain point. Ergo: players feel compelled to raid or m+ to get gear to progress their character, regardless of any of the other systems they "tried" to implement.

The reality is that the majority of players don't want to raid, but can be compelled to do so by rewards which are applicable to the things they actually do.

[shise]

The customer is always right.

It's not just a cliched, smartass saying. In most cases, if the customer's demands are reasonable, it's totally applicable. Without their paying customers, Blizzard goes belly up. Now if you mean why the MMO Champion community is so entitled, then you have a point. Blizzard can survive without that small vocal minorities' unreasonable requests. Their general wow gaming player base and to a lesser extent wow community is what keeps them profitable and puts food on their tables. But they really shouldn't make it a habit of ignoring their player base because they think everyone's requests are entitled and do what they want. Sometimes the player knows more what the player wants than the devs do. Shocking concept, I know.

Really depends on the product, for most cases where actual profesionals are required to create certain service / product, no, the customer is not right and they should shut up and listen to the professional 90% of the times (example on my field where we design and build houses, and a lot of clients insist in making more than proven mistakes because they think that they like it,but we know that they will not like it in reality, because we´ve seen that happen over and over..)

In game developing, it is neither but a middle point. You must listen to your playerbase, of course, follow their trends... but you also need to have an audience and not try to pelase everyone. Some players might think that having level skips, free gear with no effort, etc is good... but is it tho?

[Celement]

Every single post you make completely confirms your bias, and I don't think you have any idea you even do it.

Every point you think you make relies on a basis of opinion that you imply is fact, or requires the acceptance of being fact to work as a point.

You should try to reread your posts with a focus on dividing what is actually a fact and what is your opinion of that fact, because the two frequently do not align from the point of view of players in those positions.




Here is a good example. You claim to be unable to see how the game is "raid or die", despite the fact that raiding is by far the fast way to accrue ilvl rewards after a very low entry level. All of the things you listed, to more or lesser degrees, relied on ilvl as a driving factor in progression or success, while not meaningfully contributing to ilvl.

You're right; if the ilvl was moved to mythic 20s the focus would shift to mythic 20s, because it is the reality that ilvl contributes to success in every facet of the game. For casual players even more so than elite players, ilvl is paramount to improving success rates, while being available from extremely limited sources after a certain point. Ergo: players feel compelled to raid or m+ to get gear to progress their character, regardless of any of the other systems they "tried" to implement.

The reality is that the majority of players don't want to raid, but can be compelled to do so by rewards which are applicable to the things they actually do.

Then what is it they want to do that scales with difficulty?

You make it sound as though there hasn't been attempts at alternative content when there clearly has been. The solution can't and won't be to destroy everything but mythic and lfr via ilv inflation.

[Delekii]

Then what is it they want to do that scales with difficulty?

You make it sound as though there hasn't been attempts at alternative content when there clearly has been. The solution can't and won't be to destroy everything but mythic and lfr via ilv inflation.

You make it sound as though these alternative content forms don't change with ilvl, when they do. Content gets easier with increased ilvl, and thus things that give increased ilvl will always be something that people feel forced to do if the content they are interested in doesn't provide it.

There is no intrinsic necessity for raiding to maintain an ilvl buffer over other content just because it always has. If other content provides similar ilvls and people stop raiding, its because people don't want to raid. You can describe this in any number of bias-induced and bias-inducing terms (a most common one is that people follow the path of least resistance), but the reality is that if raiding were compelling in its own right and not simply because it is the simplest way to progress power character, people would have engaged with it from the outset. They didn't.

Raiding is a niche activity that Blizzard spends far too much time and effort shoehorning into the main aim of the game. As a result, all of their forays into alternative content have been released with a rock tied around their waist, dragging along behind, rather than on an equal footing with the capacity to grow. Anything and everything that gets released gets released in the framework and shadow of raiding being the top dog.

The reality is that people who are primarily raiders somewhat rely on a captive audience of people who would likely be just as happy doing other things if they didn't feel compelled to raid, because otherwise the critical mass needed to raid effectively would struggle to exist on a lot of server groupings. There is a self-serving purpose to raiders, and Blizzard, ensuring that people who don't particularly want to raid still do it anyway.

[Celement]

You make it sound as though these alternative content forms don't change with ilvl, when they do. Content gets easier with increased ilvl, and thus things that give increased ilvl will always be something that people feel forced to do if the content they are interested in doesn't provide it.

There is no intrinsic necessity for raiding to maintain an ilvl buffer over other content just because it always has. If other content provides similar ilvls and people stop raiding, its because people don't want to raid. You can describe this in any number of bias-induced and bias-inducing terms (a most common one is that people follow the path of least resistance), but the reality is that if raiding were compelling in its own right and not simply because it is the simplest way to progress power character, people would have engaged with it from the outset. They didn't.

Raiding is a niche activity that Blizzard spends far too much time and effort shoehorning into the main aim of the game. As a result, all of their forays into alternative content have been released with a rock tied around their waist, dragging along behind, rather than on an equal footing with the capacity to grow. Anything and everything that gets released gets released in the framework and shadow of raiding being the top dog.

The reality is that people who are primarily raiders somewhat rely on a captive audience of people who would likely be just as happy doing other things if they didn't feel compelled to raid, because otherwise the critical mass needed to raid effectively would struggle to exist on a lot of server groupings. There is a self-serving purpose to raiders, and Blizzard, ensuring that people who don't particularly want to raid still do it anyway.

I mean... mythic plus and visions. While I think mythic plus should have a chest and rather cap out at 20 myself. Your argument seems to require we omit content that did have similar ilv and still failed. If I was being unkind I would point out torghast had higher ilv...

[HansOlo]

Now everything I am about to bring up can be seen in any mmo. This isn't about wow having unique problems just the frequency I see it compared to other games.

With that out of the way... why is it that in wow players just come off as brats as the norm?

You see people complaining constantly that they are not invited to high level content without having done any high level content. You see people turning their noses at starting gear claiming that it isn't near best in slot and only more powerful then the first few tiers of difficult content...


I just don't get why... in most communities these players are laughed out but here I wouldn't say they are catered to but they come off as the norm.

I reliazed the problem.

Blizzard is giving the option to the community - but they are not commiting any promises. The community feels like the customer is king and then you have a bunch of people(giving the size of the playerbase) - all having a need to fix the game. The communication itself created the foundation for what we are observing.

Blizzard should instead communicate more clearly on realistic milestones and actually reject ideas they don't see fitting. They should act like devs and not customerservice.