Why does wow's community come off as so entitled?

[Delekii]

I mean... mythic plus and visions. While I think mythic plus should have a chest and rather cap out at 20 myself. Your argument seems to require we omit content that did have similar ilv and still failed. If I was being unkind I would point out torghast had higher ilv...

M+ had a competitive ilvl and was reigned in because it was too popular and undermining raiding. It now only competes in terms of weekly box, which is very slow relative to raiding (and temporality matters). Visions and Torghast both have extremely limited scope; visions was extremely short and limited in potential rewards and very, very unlikely to reward an actual upgrade, and Torghast rewards a single piece of one-and-done gear which then gets upgraded ad-infinitum.. and people do it.

With the exception of the first iteration of M+ (which was absolutely popular and was reigned in because of it), none of these systems are direct competitors with raiding from a player progression perspective. There is nothing out there that is an actual alternative to raiding, whereby you can say "nah, I don't like raiding.. I'll do this instead". Besides PvP, of course, which is even moreso reliant on a captive "loser" audience to prop up the winners.

Even the removal of 10 man raiding goes somewhat to show this idea of holding the majority hostage to prop the minority up. 10-man raiding was incredibly popular (in relative terms, compared with raiding in totality), and still remains a common request to this day. Blizzard ostensibly didn't want to deal with the balance issues between the two modes, while ignoring the fact that it doesn't actually matter if the balance between 10 and 25man raiding isn't exactly perfect unless they require them to be exactly equal, which isn't needed. Again; if people want to 25man raid they will 25man raid; if people can choose between 10 or 25 man raiding and choose 10man, its because they don't want to do 25man raids. Removing the mode to create a captive audience for those who want to raid 25man (now 20) is shoehorning the majority to fill the needs of the minority.

[Caprias]

You make it sound as though these alternative content forms don't change with ilvl, when they do. Content gets easier with increased ilvl, and thus things that give increased ilvl will always be something that people feel forced to do if the content they are interested in doesn't provide it.

There is no intrinsic necessity for raiding to maintain an ilvl buffer over other content just because it always has. If other content provides similar ilvls and people stop raiding, its because people don't want to raid. You can describe this in any number of bias-induced and bias-inducing terms (a most common one is that people follow the path of least resistance), but the reality is that if raiding were compelling in its own right and not simply because it is the simplest way to progress power character, people would have engaged with it from the outset. They didn't.

Raiding is a niche activity that Blizzard spends far too much time and effort shoehorning into the main aim of the game. As a result, all of their forays into alternative content have been released with a rock tied around their waist, dragging along behind, rather than on an equal footing with the capacity to grow. Anything and everything that gets released gets released in the framework and shadow of raiding being the top dog.

The reality is that people who are primarily raiders somewhat rely on a captive audience of people who would likely be just as happy doing other things if they didn't feel compelled to raid, because otherwise the critical mass needed to raid effectively would struggle to exist on a lot of server groupings. There is a self-serving purpose to raiders, and Blizzard, ensuring that people who don't particularly want to raid still do it anyway.

Your whole argument thrones on the assumption that casual players desperately want good gear, near mythic itemlevel to be exact as something above normal+tier is easily attainable right now.

There are several market cases right now in the ever increasing mmo competition that just... prove this wrong?

[Battlebeard]

Kinda weird to me that there are still people out there with that outlook on MMORPGs.

I have a few games i'd play "Just for fun" Like Swtor, Vindictus, Warframe, Black desert as i'm not as invested in those and don't ever plan to play them at the true endgame grind or efficiany (Tho it's been years since i've touched most of those, It's just stuff i've played previously and how i felt about them when i played them)

WoW & Blade and soul are the two main games i have atm, WoW is still more of a side activty that i don't engage with too much any more tho, Not played it since Korthia patch, But might get back into it, I heard Surv hunter is said to be very fun atm with the tier set bonus.

If you are invested and play something a lot tho, i don't see how you can not fall into the "Need to be efficiant for max progression" mentality.

Why not? Imagine playing tennis with a friend and rushing it all the time "okey lets go serve gogogogo, quick change side, no time for water, SERVE FASTER so we can end this match 15min earlier" it's just a very strange way to do any hobby I think.

[Celement]

M+ had a competitive ilvl and was reigned in because it was too popular and undermining raiding. It now only competes in terms of weekly box, which is very slow relative to raiding (and temporality matters). Visions and Torghast both have extremely limited scope; visions was extremely short and limited in potential rewards and very, very unlikely to reward an actual upgrade, and Torghast rewards a single piece of one-and-done gear which then gets upgraded ad-infinitum.. and people do it.

With the exception of the first iteration of M+ (which was absolutely popular and was reigned in because of it), none of these systems are direct competitors with raiding from a player progression perspective. There is nothing out there that is an actual alternative to raiding, whereby you can say "nah, I don't like raiding.. I'll do this instead". Besides PvP, of course, which is even moreso reliant on a captive "loser" audience to prop up the winners.

Even the removal of 10 man raiding goes somewhat to show this idea of holding the majority hostage to prop the minority up. 10-man raiding was incredibly popular (in relative terms, compared with raiding in totality), and still remains a common request to this day. Blizzard ostensibly didn't want to deal with the balance issues between the two modes, while ignoring the fact that it doesn't actually matter if the balance between 10 and 25man raiding isn't exactly perfect unless they require them to be exactly equal, which isn't needed. Again; if people want to 25man raid they will 25man raid; if people can choose between 10 or 25 man raiding and choose 10man, its because they don't want to do 25man raids. Removing the mode to create a captive audience for those who want to raid 25man (now 20) is shoehorning the majority to fill the needs of the minority.

I agree mythic plus shouldn't of been as nerfed as it was. It takes longer then it should to gear though that nerf went alongside a nerf to raid loot though the latter was mostly undone.

[Ihavewaffles]

Now everything I am about to bring up can be seen in any mmo. This isn't about wow having unique problems just the frequency I see it compared to other games.

With that out of the way... why is it that in wow players just come off as brats as the norm?

You see people complaining constantly that they are not invited to high level content without having done any high level content.

So people should have done mythic jailer before the first time they try mythic jailer? Cool story, bro

[Abysal]

So people should have done mythic jailer before the first time they try mythic jailer? Cool story, bro

People just want to progress their characters. If they can choose between taking someone who has proven they can help with that goal or taking someone who might get in the way of that goal, why would they ever choose the unproven player? There's nothing to gain but there is something to lose by bringing an unproven player.

Now imagine if bosses dropped extra loot if someone in the group was killing it for the first time. Now there's at least something to gain for letting a less experienced player join.

[Coldkil]

I look at the opposite and don't understand how people can accept the elitistic game that this has become. And the insane requirements that people ask for.

- People asking for Ahead of the Curve for Normal raids
- People asking for Keystone Mastery (+15s) to join +10s
- People asking for full Heroic gear to do Normal raids

etc etc, it's become a joke.

It's not that the game or community actually changed. It's that the middle tier casual player (that was the guy who dind't really care about this stuff, only to clear a reasonable amount of content), went away to other more suited games or whatever reasons. The core that stays is the most diehard hence this is what happens.

Also the whole design seems tailored to appeal exactly the most competitive players, which are usually the most visible aswell.

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I agree mythic plus shouldn't of been as nerfed as it was. It takes longer then it should to gear though that nerf went alongside a nerf to raid loot though the latter was mostly undone.

M+ even with the nerfs is still by far the best way to gear up. You can spam them to get the loot you want, you can upgrade gear to a decent (albeit lower than mythic raid ilvl) and you can have a guaranteed mythic ilvl piece of gear each week (with all the issues the Vault has).

Raid it's a weekly chance to a loot you may even not get at all. M+ you can always run one more, and you don't need actual mythic level difficulty to get mythic ilvl loot.

And a thing many people just doesn't consider: to raid you need a guild and organized schedule. You cannot PUG mythic raids (both because it's locked until later date and because there are not really groups doing it) and pugging HC both has a higher skill/coordination requirement while giving you worse (if at all) rewards.

It's not really a matter of easy/hard content at all (and we all agree 15s are much easier than mythic raids). It's literally the fact you can spam one while the other is a weekly chance. The vault is equally bad for both as you can get thrash independently from what you're actually doing.

People pretending to have 15s dish out mythic ilvl gear are literally asking for mythic raid loot without the hassles of actually doing mythic raids.

[NineSpine]

Has this ever actually happened and if so can you make a note of when?

I understand that there is this rhetoric the top end hates the terrible players and is out to ruin there content but it has never made much sense to me.

I recall players saying lfr would turn into a dumpster fire that would invalidate dungeons solely to give whiny players free loot and till the end of wod that was a pretty accurate take.

Usually what happens is the top end players warn something is going to be fucking awful if they dumb it down for the terrible players who want free rewards. Blizzard ignores the feedback and ap,azerite,corruption, islands, etc are born.

I am going to actually really drive this home past the finish line. It is exceedingly rare you ever see players outside of mythic and higher rated pvp EVER bitch about the content. I don't think content matters to them if I'm being blunt. Nearly every time they complain it comes down to rewards and once they have those rewards they are scornful that no one cares about those rewards anymore.

It comes off at least to me. That they have this weird desire to be a hero in an mmo where they are at best mediocre or below. It isnt something I can easily put myself into their shoes with because if that was my goal ( it isn't) I would just work at getting better.

Yes, people have a "weird desire" to feel like a "hero" in...a video game. If there was ever a potent example of how detached from reality your perspective it is, that's it right there. Does anything more need to be said? You are so absurdly infatuated with yourself, that you are expressing confusion at the idea of having fun in a video game.

[Zenfoldor]

If you can start a group and get people to apply who are above the qualifications, why wouldn't you take them over someone who doesn't have them?

If you run a business and try to hire new folks and a bunch of people with elite experience apply for the same salary, would you really hire the noobs?

Your above assertions are 100% correct. This isn't something that is the player's fault.

It is the game's fault.

The game should mechanically prevent such behavior, and we would all be the better for it, imo.

[NineSpine]

Where did they cater to the hardcore ? The only hardcore catering I saw is adding Mythic raid difficulty, and even that was more like bad players complaining they couldn't complete Heroic, so they shifted some stuff around and created Flex for both Normal and Heroic.

The entire endgame loop is based around doing normal+ raiding, mythic+ dungeons, or rated pvp. If you don't want to do any of those things, the game has virtually nothing to offer you. You outgear almost everything else in literally just days after hitting max level. The whole structure of the endgame is based on rapidly funneling players into those three activities, all of which are for hardcore players. Everything outside of those things is pathetically poorly designed, not engaging, typically time gated, and offers almost no rewards of substance or a long term endgame loop with a progression path.

[Nalam the Venom]

Why not? Imagine playing tennis with a friend and rushing it all the time "okey lets go serve gogogogo, quick change side, no time for water, SERVE FASTER so we can end this match 15min earlier" it's just a very strange way to do any hobby I think.

Hopefully you just play with friends then.

I’d say it’s pretty rude to stomp on someone elses enjoyment just because you have a different outlook on the game.

If you do group content then be considerate towards your fellow players and don’t slack too much.

[NineSpine]

Hopefully you just play with friends then.

I’d say it’s pretty rude to stomp on someone elses enjoyment just because you have a different outlook on the game.

If you do group content then be considerate towards your fellow players and don’t slack too much.

Imagine joining a pickup basketball game at the gym, acting like its the fucking NBA, ruining the fun for everyone, and then claiming everyone else is being "rude" for not also acting like a delusional, narcissistic maniac.

[Sorrior]

Where is the pocpoc upgrade panel? I was told i need to run m+ to get items to upgrade as well? I completed the campaign and got my legendary belt but I dont remember upgrading pocpoc. I have like 5 different currencies and im not sure what most of these do.

Again in wrath it was much simpler. Run dungeon get tier It was slower sure and maybe not even as lucrative but like their was less hurdles to jump through.

I believe even dailies awarded justice points at sone point.

It was about the journey then for many not just the simple act if gearing. Getting that upgrade felt great as it really boosted our ability to do even non group things.

I remember going from struggling with the tournament to near the end just jumping off my horse and wiping out the other side because f that jousting i'm strong enough to do it solo now.

It took a longer time sure. But i think that made the impact of the gear feel more significant.

Tbh concepts such as the "feel" of sonething or rather emotion(and maybe even fun) as well as "the journey" is what seems to never be considered by many and especially Ion who goes purely by numbers. Video games are art not just a scientific metric you can quantify. Theres an emotional aspect that seems to get pretty heavily ignored these days

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That's clever and probably has some benefit to it but I don't think it actually addresses his concern about reward systems being exploited to the hilt so people can min max their face off. I don't think it's a particularly valid concern, it's selfish but what you're proposing simple sounds like another avenue for them to further leverage additional player power albeit in service of helping others. They will still complain about being "forced" only this time the complaints will include being forced to interact with pleebs. Actually that's exactly happened when LFR had trinkets and tier sets. Like that's the best part, the behaviour he's ascribing as human nature is usually relegated to children and sociopaths but evidently this is everybody playing every game everywhere. Like dudes in uzbekistan playing sims 4 are concerned about min maxing. Gtfo with this garbage bullshit.

You actually just get cosmetics, titles or mounts for the mentor/commemdations.

They also took the wrath era justice/valor system renamed it tomestones and made it so ANY activity on a high level character gets tomestones with a weekly cap on raid ilv(so say doing the random high level roulette..oh yeah there are multiple random dungeon roulettes for multiple types of content from the latest ones to old max level to simple leveling ones to "trials"(single boss raids) to "alliance raids"(24 nan raids about normal mode difficulty) etc). You can also get them through hunt trains(bosses that spawn in the open world at certain times). You can also crazy slowly get some of the non end game tomestones through pvp(whose gear is now 100% aesthetic and is auto equalized even with different skills/abilities for everyone)

Crafters have there own way to get a counterpart called scribs to gear

Cool thing is getting a new player in group content awards extra tomestones/points so you can gear up faster. But doesn't explicity award power for doing a good job/being helpful.

All in all you can do most anything you want and progress if on a max level class(if not you get daily xp bonuses and some older tomestones for gear from prior expansions)

It's basically just a variant on wraths system and it WORKS.

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This is my feelings on this as well.

I did a lot more optional content when the "required" content (AKA content I needed to do to progress my main character's strength for the content I was trying to tackle- namely Heroic Raiding) was kept at a bare minimum. There was a time in Wrath where the only way I could actually get better gear was to show up to my weekly raid nights. Once those were done or earlier in the day before they started well... I had literally nothing to do.
I spent much of that time leveling and gearing alts, participating in pug raids on said alts, exploring the world with my friends on Vent (oh lord). I have plenty of screenshots from that time period. My friend and I decided to climb down into the bottom of Blackrock Mountain and go fishing in the lava. Cool screenshot I still have to this day. I also had a priest friend who started abusing Levitate in order to get to out of bounds areas. He was visited by an in game GM who asked him what he was doing in the middle of the giant area behind AQ that would later become Uldum. He got a screenshot of the GM floating in mid air in front of him LOL.

There were a lot of fun things you could do in the game when you didn't have a carrot on a stick constantly dangling in front of you. I hope they go back to that old model. Torgast would have been a lot of fun if it was optional. I remember a lot of people during SLs beta who said it was a blast, and then immediately hated it once they started changing it to give it a functional end with a reward system.

I think you hit on why i preferred the point system. I do my daily get the points then just do whatever. I ran alts i worked on gearing a character i chose or just went and did random stuff.

I didn't feel trapped or forced to do 50 seperate checklists. It was a small list and even then i miss a day i could compensate elsewhere. It wasn't a job.

Also reminds me of South Park where they took out the asshole ganker and then after no lifing go "ok NOW we can have fun"..After doing an insane amount of mind numbing grinding.

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Aside from talents, this entire expansion press tour has been about the things they aren't doing anymore, rather than what they are going to do.

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Interesting. What technology did you use to wipe your mind of all knowledge about the game before doing that?

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Hitting max level and running out of things to do in two weeks isn't "never had it better". It's boring.

I think for some it's purely about ilv not the journey in getting it.

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Yeesh, the arrogance on these forums is astonishing. Just 100% speculation trotted out as unassailable truth, repeated ad nauseum. Incredible to behold.

But on the point of solo progression...really feels like some of yall haven't played this patch! You can get tier solo for the first time ever! And having set is more potent than all other gear combined. Like literally 20-30 ilvls worth in some cases.

You can also get two 291 legos and upgrade ZM gear to normal raid level.

And if you don't want to do any of that, you can always pug low keys for vault options or just do LFR and get set that way.

Or go play other games and don't worry about the secret cabal of evil devs or whatever! That's great too.

"First time ever" no not really you could get tier sets in wrath solo. Took ages but doable.

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I mean... mythic plus and visions. While I think mythic plus should have a chest and rather cap out at 20 myself. Your argument seems to require we omit content that did have similar ilv and still failed. If I was being unkind I would point out torghast had higher ilv...

Things like Visions(which was very fun fairly casual content imo) are ONLY put in by expansions end.

Why not have a thing like it from the start?

[Hctaz]

I think you hit on why i preferred the point system. I do my daily get the points then just do whatever. I ran alts i worked on gearing a character i chose or just went and did random stuff.

I didn't feel trapped or forced to do 50 seperate checklists. It was a small list and even then i miss a day i could compensate elsewhere. It wasn't a job.

Also reminds me of South Park where they took out the asshole ganker and then after no lifing go "ok NOW we can have fun"..After doing an insane amount of mind numbing grinding.

Exaaaactly!

The South Park episode never was more true to me than during Legion. I'm out here raiding Mythic and I have people breathing down my back "You have to reach this many artifact levels by Tuesday or you're benched" "You're expected to continue doing Emissary quests until you have obtained the two BiS legendary items, but you're encouraged to keep farming them for additional items which could get buffed or nerfed in the next patch."

My whole guild was farming Mythic plus constantly for titanforged pieces of gear and/or AP, and we literally would just be complaining the entire time about how boring it was but we also kept doing it because we felt like it was necessary in order for us to have a good time doing Mythic raids like we used to.

It's the reason I enjoyed the way Vanilla WoW worked. You didn't necessarily require BiS gear to clear Molten Core. If your raid was sweaty and wanted to use flasks and stuff, then you just needed to find a way to earn gold. Everything you needed as a raider was pretty much obtainable with gold, so I was working from home and I spent a lot of that time farming lava elementals and whatnot in order to get gold. After like 2 months, I had enough gold to last me most of the expansion and I was left with a ton of free time. Used that time to level a mage and then started doing ZG trash clears for Bijous. It was all on my time, not when the game told me I could do it.
I didn't have to log in every 8 hours to get the fire elemental world quest that rewarded me with 20 whatever the material was, I could just do it whenever. Maybe I was tired after work and didn't want to log into WoW one day. No problem. I'll just farm for 16 hours on Saturday because I have no life on the weekend LOL but you could make up time whenever.

[Celement]

Yes, people have a "weird desire" to feel like a "hero" in...a video game. If there was ever a potent example of how detached from reality your perspective it is, that's it right there. Does anything more need to be said? You are so absurdly infatuated with yourself, that you are expressing confusion at the idea of having fun in a video game.

The problem is you can't make everyone equal with multiple difficulties unless you break the game for the majority of its players. If you are average you end up with average results.

Some people have to aim their sights lower. Become the friendly neighborhood spiderman rather then dr strange.

[VMSmith]

If they can choose between taking someone who has proven they can help with that goal or taking someone who might get in the way of that goal, why would they ever choose the unproven player? There's nothing to gain ...

Well, there's that supposed "social" experience so many, particularly raiders, clamor for incessantly. You don't necessarily get a better social experience by "crunching the numbers". In fact, it's quite possible that you may get better social experiences by taking people who aren't as up to snuff as you have a motivation to talk with them to overcome the challenge rather than knocking the mobs down in ever more efficiency with a silent group of "provens".

[Azharok]

Well, there's that supposed "social" experience so many, particularly raiders, clamor for incessantly. You don't necessarily get a better social experience by "crunching the numbers". In fact, it's quite possible that you may get better social experiences by taking people who aren't as up to snuff as you have a motivation to talk with them to overcome the challenge rather than knocking the mobs down in ever more efficiency with a silent group of "provens".

We've tried coaching a few pugs that did dumb shit in keys, it doesn't end well.

[VMSmith]

We've tried coaching a few pugs that did dumb shit in keys, it doesn't end well.

I imagine it depended on the attitude of the "coaches". If you're acting like a drill sergeant trying to whip fresh recruits into a battle-ready state, then, yeah, it's not gonna be fun.

But if you're all laughing and goofing off and putting failures behind you and just having a lark together, then you might have a good time and make some friends.

The best raiding experiences I've had were all of the second type, whether bosses fell or not. The worst have always been when people tried to keep us "on target".

[chiddie]

The entire endgame loop is based around doing normal+ raiding, mythic+ dungeons, or rated pvp. If you don't want to do any of those things, the game has virtually nothing to offer you. You outgear almost everything else in literally just days after hitting max level. The whole structure of the endgame is based on rapidly funneling players into those three activities, all of which are for hardcore players. Everything outside of those things is pathetically poorly designed, not engaging, typically time gated, and offers almost no rewards of substance or a long term endgame loop with a progression path.

Can we stick this in home page for future and permanent reference please?

[Celement]

I imagine it depended on the attitude of the "coaches". If you're acting like a drill sergeant trying to whip fresh recruits into a battle-ready state, then, yeah, it's not gonna be fun.

But if you're all laughing and goofing off and putting failures behind you and just having a lark together, then you might have a good time and make some friends.

The best raiding experiences I've had were all of the second type, whether bosses fell or not. The worst have always been when people tried to keep us "on target".

Most tend to get extremely aggressive drop group or attempt to wipe the group in response to any issue being raised.

Players only get better if they want to. Otherwise they tend to just want a carry or someone to blame.