Forget RDF, there is a bigger problem!

[ResentfulUK]

Achievements are awesome and I look forward to their inclusion.

[Nerph-]

What do you mean? I want to replay WotLK classic, just like I replayed Classic and TBC Classic, I wanna enjoy the content again. But since I already done it, it's absurd that one will be required to link an achievement.

Why does it matter that you've already "done it"? This is a re-release of an old expansion, a fresh start for everyone. There will be people who cleared everything when it was current, there will be people who never got the chance to play WotLK. I'm not really understanding your argument here.

Are you expecting your retail achievements to be carried over to classic or something?

[zolfare]

Why does it matter that you've already "done it"? This is a re-release of an old expansion, a fresh start for everyone. There will be people who cleared everything when it was current, there will be people who never got the chance to play WotLK. I'm not really understanding your argument here.

Are you expecting your retail achievements to be carried over to classic or something?

This is a perfect example of community involvement. This is the best time for players to build communities around being new to WotLK. I can guarantee there are many players out there that have already played through all of the content Wrath had to offer at the time and would be happy to help newcomers see it for the first time (I being one of them that will be doing this).

So you heard it here first, get involved with the community and find a guild of like-minded people.... who'd have thought.

[Biomega]

Unfortunately it led to the circular reasoning of:
Player A: Let me join your group, I have decent gear and know the fights
Grp leader: Got the chieve?
A: No, we couldnt get enough dps to kill "X" boss in time
Grp: Then you cant join
A: Why not?
Grp: You dont have the chieve
A: How am I supposed to get it?
Grp: Do the raid
A: .....

rinse and repeat over and over. It wont affect ME at all, just like it didnt back then, but I do know a LOT of people who ended up quitting the game because they didnt have time to commit to a guild raid schedule and couldnt get into a raid despite being good players because they didnt have the achievement FOR the raid they were applying for.

That's such a tiny fraction of actual people, though. People who are good and geared but somehow can't make it into any raid and can't commit to a guild? That's incredibly specific, and incredibly rare.

But you're right: those people get caught in the net for no reason. That's unfortunate. But it's an acceptable failure rate for the system. Few things are perfect, and false positives/false negatives happen from time to time. That doesn't mean it's not a good system in place, even if every now and then it screens out the wrong person - because most of the time, it also screens out the RIGHT person.

[Makaloff]

Well, this goes down to fundamental views on what classic is. You speak of "clean clears", and the fact that people value this, goes against the entire spirit of classic and I am 100% sure the developers would agree. This game was never intended to be played on such a serious level with that mindset.

If that is what people want, Blizzard should, as much as possible, fight that mindset. Not adding achievements this time is a start. Giving players what they want is not always the way to go. Just look what happened to Retail and all the problems modern wow has.

And again, if you value clean clears, WHY do you play this game and not retail? You obviously have a hardcore mindset, and that's fine, but why do you play a super easy game with that mindset, it just doesn't make any sense.

That's like playing Normal battlegrounds and treating them like rated bgs.

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I do understand SOME gear is required, even though it's usually riddicilous demands on that front too, but we talk about achievements, which makes no sense.
Why don't they make any sense?
1. Almost EVERYONE did WotLK back in the day, the people who will experience WotLK for the first time is a very small minority.
2. It's a complete joke, lets say they never add achievements, litterally EVERY raid would oneshot Naxxramas, they are not needed.

since i couldnt find the comment you answered me on (dunno why) i figured id answer: look, i get you have busy life and whatnot, its okay, we all have things to do. however i can atleast mention that i used to pug naxx and raid lead it when i was like 12, naxx was so easy and that was without achivement requirements. i honestly think you are overblowing it a bit and it most likely wont be as bad as you might think it will. besides, its not that hard to raid lead, people know these raids inside out for most part and people are much more competent today than they were back in original wrath. so all in all, you are making a hen out of a feather.

[mercutiouk]

Yeah, should I fall behind I would, but like I mentioned, the big problem is the attitude. Even if I personally get invited, I HATE that the game becomes non-inclusive and that some people are left out cause they lack achievements.

It was riddicilous back in the day, even more now. The fact that people will ask for achievements in a game that 90% has already experienced is a joke. We gonna see people who did realm first clears back in the day not getting invited now, it's wrong.

And the first decent lead with a clue can be talked to about it and some other form of conveying confidence in a players ability can be found.
Sure some are absolutely blinkered but the point that someone with zero ways to show their ability and a lead with zero ability to be a little flexible meet is a pretty edge case scenario.

Folks WILL always want to screen time wasters... within reason, I don't completely object.
I've equally no issue carrying someone trying but... it doesn't take much to have 1 person screw things for everyone. There's a balance needed so some basic checks are completely expected. If folks without the achieve can't think ahead a bit about reasonable way around objections to taking them... that's not really anyone else's fault.

[Belloc]

Achievements, Gearscore, Ilvl, RIO, etc is what killed this game, it divided us, and it started in WotLK.

No, those things didn't kill the game. Not in the slightest. They are just some of YOUR pet peeves.

Item Level has been present since the beginning. Before gear score, people just inspected you and looked at what you were wearing. There have always been player-imposed gating mechanics for any difficult content.

As far as achievements... achievements brought players together. I can't tell you how many groups I've participated in simply to acquire achievements.

Your complaints read as a player who had difficulties finding a good group of people to play with, mainly stayed solo, and had a reduced experience as a result. I'm not trying to be a jerk, but that's not a problem with the game.

[Ilookfly]

Play the way I want, everything else is elitist. Great logic. Threads like these is why people laugh at this forum.

[MoanaLisa]

Achievements for the most part are fine.

I do think that the API allows players to know way too much about other players. That encourages exclusion which is a big problem in a game that is first and foremost supposed to be social.

As a bonus I would break damage meters and raid addons as well. It's far too late to do anything about the way it is though. There is simply no mystery about anything or anyone.

If you need to know you should be in a guild where issues can be discussed.

[Skylarking]

If you read a few more posts in the thread, you see guildraiding is not an option for me.

No you're just making an excuse and/or being lazy. There certainly are guilds out there that can accommodate your raiding needs. Niche of course and might be difficult to find but they do exist.

[Nalam the Venom]

This is Classic, there shouldn't even be organised content. It's a joke, it's easy peasy. Achievements are not needed, ANY group can and would oneshot Naxx.

Back in the day pugs did freaking Immortal (0 deaths entire raid) super easy, that's how much of a joke the raid is, yet people ask for achievements, just why. Makes no sense.

What you say just goes against logic. Why do you need to prove experience when you don't need experience. IRL it's the same, anyone can flip burgers, anyone can get a job at McDonalds, you shouldn't need experience from Burger King to get hired...

Why of you so scared to show proof of compentency?

Just link the achivement or score.

If you don't have it, then Make your own group or just get it in some other way.

You are making this out to be a bigger deal than it has to be.

You are free to make your low-geared "Fun" group as much as you want, But don't force that on other people.

[Ilookfly]

There is no need for a proof of competency, this has no positive effect, it just holds people back.

WotLK is still a very easy game, even ICC Heroic will be cleared very easily, there is no need for achievements, especially in T7 and T8 content. Litterally EVERY SINGLE raid in the entire game would clear Naxx and oneshot the bosses, however with achievements, not everyone will get a chance to even try it.

Achievements, Gearscore, Ilvl, RIO, etc is what killed this game, it divided us, and it started in WotLK.

By this same logic everyone should get the needed achievements very quickly since it is so easy.

[DerJules]

You forget this is old content, we already had this expansion, there is nothing new, people did this before. To have achievements again is insanity. People who did realm first Heroic Lich King back in the day will get denied for normal 10 man, it's absolute madness.

I see multiple issues with this:
- I dont think "people did this before" is a helpful argument. Most (>50%) players did not do all raid content when it was recent in Classic, TBC, WotLk, Cata and further down the line. This can be checked by looking f.e. in wowprogress statistics, youtube videos or various blogs. And even if someone did something more than 10 years ago, it doesnt necessarily mean that someone still knows now.
- I'd know multiple good reasons why someone who just provides Realm First LK HC back in the day could be declined (Gear, Logs, Attitude, etc.)

I can totally relate to you that an achievement isnt the best indicator if a person is suitable for the run or not, but it definetly is one. And it is super accessible for leaders.

WotLK will be simply this: if you don't have an achievement, you are FORCED to lead your own raids and that sucks. If you are horrible at leading and don't what that kind of extreme stress, you will NEVER ever raid. That sucks.

Correct me if I get you wrong. I read here "If I dont have the right achievement in WotLk I'm forced to be the raidleader, because otherwise I will never be in a raid".

Let me approach this from a different POV.

Why do people check achievements, logs, gear etc. ?
I think those people dont want to spend their time in the game wiping/progressing on bosses which they have killed before or see as trivial (also no kill -> no loot). So they want to make sure that if they invite random players, that they still spend/enjoy their time in the game the way they want (killing bosses -> getting loot). In order to do so they need possibilities to check on the potential performance of the player. Achievements are just another possibility to do so:
- Checking Logs
- Gear Check
- Talking to the player
- References from others
- Achievements (just this one will be new in WotLk)

BTW checking logs is basicly the HC version of linking achievment, because it doesnt just check whether you killed the boss, it also checks how good you performed.

But to whom is a missing achievement even a problem?
People which are raiding in a guild are not affected.
People with good gear are not affected.
People with good logs are not affected.
People with references or playing with friend are not affected.
People with the achievement are obviously not affected.

So for me the definition of the affected player comes down to this "Random Player, who does not raid in a guild, hasn't the right gear and nothing else to back up his claims that he is suitable for the run".

And this brings me back to my point from the last post. In my opinion this is only a problem to people who dont want or cant invest the time that is needed to fix any of these requirements.

And I dont see how having or not having achievements is gonna change anything about that situation.

[RobertMugabe]

Which is of course the biggest disease the game got, Achievements. And also a few other things, like Gearscore addons etc.

WotLK is the beginning of the end for the community, and an inclusive game. WotLK is when the game became elitistic for real, as we started seeing ways in game to divide the community and shift the focus from fun to an unhealthy mindset.

Sure, even Classic and TBC Classic had some issues. Warcraft Logs is the disease that plague the game right now, it sucks but at least it's done outside of the game and not everyone is using it.

With achievements, elitism is taken to a whole new level, as it's accessible in game. "LFM XXX, link XXX achievement", this nightmare happened for too many years and the hype of WotLK has made people forget about this hell. WotLK is gonna turn the game pretty much into retail. People are gonna spend hours looking for groups and then quit, this will make the game unhealthy in every way possible. It's the never ending circle. You cannot get invited without an achievement, but you cannot get the achievement without getting invited. Unless you get the achievement the FIRST week, you are pretty much screwed. Week 2 we will see "LFM Naxx, Link achievement" and if you don't, you won't get in.

Yes there are ways around it, like ways to link fake achievements, but that's not the big issue, the big issue is that WotLK Classic will change the mindset of many people, changing what I believe what Classic should be. Classic should be a nostalgia trip, never a competitive game. I think WotLK could be such a good game, but I fear it will once again be ruined, just like in 2008-2010.

What do you guys think of this? Do you see this as a problem like I do? Do you think this will kill the spirit and fun of the game? Do you also hope achievements will never be added?

And please, no "just lead your own group", this is never a solution, not everyone is leader material, and since only 1 person can be leader, it's not a reasonable demand EVERYONE is the leader to actually play.

Wotlk's achivement system didn't make any of this worse.

What you completely fail to mention is the fact that it was in Wotlk where pug raiding became truly mainstream due to how easy and accessible it was. And with it, all good as well as all bad things became more apparent including gatekeeping raid leaders. In Classic/TBC you were more encouraged to join a guild, so this wasn't as much as much of a known issue.

If achivement's did not exist, then this would have no effect whatsoever on elitism and pug raid leads deciding who they want to invite or not. Instead you are simply suggesting to make the game less fun for everyone with no positives.

It's also funny how you and others with a similar mindset admit that Classic should be a nostalgia trip and yet you want to remove such a core and defining feature of that expac (achivements, rdf etc).

[Kralljin]

I do think that the API allows players to know way too much about other players. That encourages exclusion which is a big problem in a game that is first and foremost supposed to be social. or anyone.

Hard disagree.

If you remove the ability to measure's people's ability, sure, you'd have a lot more people joining raids, but you know what you would also have?
More Pugs disbanding, less pugs clearing raids, more drama.
The unfortunate truth that a lot of people simply refuse to accept (and i've said this before in this thread): Most people are terrible at the game.

I'm raidleading a pug on a weekly basis and in order to have clean, solid runs, i frankly have to vet people.
I'm not doing this because i enjoy looking up people's logs, i do this because whenever i skip out on it, i get punished very hard.

These people don't make mistakes such as "Oh, you couldn't have known this because we play a different strat" or failing on a mechanic that one has to play at least in order to grasp it (because let's be real, those mechanics don't exist in TBCC), they usually fail on extremely basic shit.

For example, i once skipped out on vetting a Resto Shaman, here's what i got.
Dude died three times on Council within a single attempt by standing in Blizzard / Flamestrike, then when we struggled on Illidan P2 due to lack of healing, people had to trade him Mana pots because he was OOM three minutes into the fight.

Then i later checked logs and realized that this guy did not use a single mana potion throughout the enterity of MH / BT until people traded him Manapots on Illidan.
(Which, for example, led to issues on Bosses such as Sharaz or Bloodboil where half of the raid died due to a lack of healing).

And this is not an isolated occurrence, this is what i pretty much always got when i skipped out on vetting a person, the sole reason why those didn't stick with me as much as the case above is simply because other people in raid were solid enough to compensate these shortcomings - which happens because, guess what, i check people's performance.

That is frankly the other side of coin of this discussion, not just the "i'm not getting invited into groups because R.IO / Achievements / Warcraftlogs!".

And this is TBCC we're talking about, not Retail heroic, let alone Mythic, T6 has been largely shown to be a joke of a tier, yet too many players walk around and cannot even get the basics of raiding right.

If i couldn't judge a player's performance, i would likely stop hosting pug raids entirely (and going by this thread, it doesn't seem like the "excluded" audience is willing to step up and fill the gap) and stick to guild runs only, because organizing and leading a raid still presents quite the effort.
If that effort is yielded with a complete gamble on whether the raid goes well or horribly wrong, then that's a gamble i will not take.

I don't hold a grudge against any person that fails to live up to these standards, but it's such a egoistic mindset when a lower end player expects to join a raid of higher end players, gets told no, then starts to complain about the standards of higher end players rather than play alongside lower end players or wants to obfuscate the tools used to judge player so he can sneak in and play along these people.

The fact that something like "progression runs" or "learning runs" are frankly unheard of in WoW unfortunately speaks volumes about the mindset present here.

[Battlebeard]

But you will get the achievement anyway by playing the game? How do you get into raids in TBC?
That way won't change.

It's easy to get into raids in TBC, very easy. One can simply say "I did it back in the day" and it was not questioned.

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Why does it matter that you've already "done it"? This is a re-release of an old expansion, a fresh start for everyone. There will be people who cleared everything when it was current, there will be people who never got the chance to play WotLK. I'm not really understanding your argument here.

Are you expecting your retail achievements to be carried over to classic or something?

I don't think they will be carried over per se, but yes of course Retail achievements are relevant. Me, I cleared it back in the day, I earned that achievement at one point in my life. That achievement was relevant in 2008-2010, it should be relevant now in 2022-2023 and also relevant in the next classic-classic-wotlk that we get in 2040. I earned that knowledge, it's permantently in me as a person.

Since I've done it at some point in my life, I KNOW the fights, I shouldn't have to re-earn an achievement to get invited.

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No, those things didn't kill the game. Not in the slightest. They are just some of YOUR pet peeves.

Item Level has been present since the beginning. Before gear score, people just inspected you and looked at what you were wearing. There have always been player-imposed gating mechanics for any difficult content.

As far as achievements... achievements brought players together. I can't tell you how many groups I've participated in simply to acquire achievements.

Your complaints read as a player who had difficulties finding a good group of people to play with, mainly stayed solo, and had a reduced experience as a result. I'm not trying to be a jerk, but that's not a problem with the game.

You are right, I don't have any friends in game, cannot guildraid, and I struggle ALOT getting grounds every single week, and it sucks. I just want the game playable for me.

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since i couldnt find the comment you answered me on (dunno why) i figured id answer: look, i get you have busy life and whatnot, its okay, we all have things to do. however i can atleast mention that i used to pug naxx and raid lead it when i was like 12, naxx was so easy and that was without achivement requirements. i honestly think you are overblowing it a bit and it most likely wont be as bad as you might think it will. besides, its not that hard to raid lead, people know these raids inside out for most part and people are much more competent today than they were back in original wrath. so all in all, you are making a hen out of a feather.

I really hope you are right. But considering how bad Retail is, that I still haven't managed to find ONE pug for Sepulcher Normal mode even tells something about the community. The game gets more elitistic every day and it's not looking good for WotLK either

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No you're just making an excuse and/or being lazy. There certainly are guilds out there that can accommodate your raiding needs. Niche of course and might be difficult to find but they do exist.

No, I guarantee they don't. I work as a freelancer, I never work the same days. There are no guilds out there who raid irrelgular days every week.

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Why of you so scared to show proof of compentency?

Just link the achivement or score.

If you don't have it, then Make your own group or just get it in some other way.

You are making this out to be a bigger deal than it has to be.

You are free to make your low-geared "Fun" group as much as you want, But don't force that on other people.

But I already have the achievement, in retail, back when it was current content in 2008-2009 etc. I shouldn't have to re-earn something to get invited.

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I see multiple issues with this:
- I dont think "people did this before" is a helpful argument. Most (>50%) players did not do all raid content when it was recent in Classic, TBC, WotLk, Cata and further down the line. This can be checked by looking f.e. in wowprogress statistics, youtube videos or various blogs. And even if someone did something more than 10 years ago, it doesnt necessarily mean that someone still knows now.
- I'd know multiple good reasons why someone who just provides Realm First LK HC back in the day could be declined (Gear, Logs, Attitude, etc.)

I can totally relate to you that an achievement isnt the best indicator if a person is suitable for the run or not, but it definetly is one. And it is super accessible for leaders.




Correct me if I get you wrong. I read here "If I dont have the right achievement in WotLk I'm forced to be the raidleader, because otherwise I will never be in a raid".

Let me approach this from a different POV.

Why do people check achievements, logs, gear etc. ?
I think those people dont want to spend their time in the game wiping/progressing on bosses which they have killed before or see as trivial (also no kill -> no loot). So they want to make sure that if they invite random players, that they still spend/enjoy their time in the game the way they want (killing bosses -> getting loot). In order to do so they need possibilities to check on the potential performance of the player. Achievements are just another possibility to do so:
- Checking Logs
- Gear Check
- Talking to the player
- References from others
- Achievements (just this one will be new in WotLk)

BTW checking logs is basicly the HC version of linking achievment, because it doesnt just check whether you killed the boss, it also checks how good you performed.

But to whom is a missing achievement even a problem?
People which are raiding in a guild are not affected.
People with good gear are not affected.
People with good logs are not affected.
People with references or playing with friend are not affected.
People with the achievement are obviously not affected.

So for me the definition of the affected player comes down to this "Random Player, who does not raid in a guild, hasn't the right gear and nothing else to back up his claims that he is suitable for the run".

And this brings me back to my point from the last post. In my opinion this is only a problem to people who dont want or cant invest the time that is needed to fix any of these requirements.

And I dont see how having or not having achievements is gonna change anything about that situation.

How can I get the achievement without an invite? We are a large group of people who cannot guildraid. It's gonna be hopeless for us.

[schwank05]

Which is of course the biggest disease the game got, Achievements. And also a few other things, like Gearscore addons etc.

WotLK is the beginning of the end for the community, and an inclusive game. WotLK is when the game became elitistic for real, as we started seeing ways in game to divide the community and shift the focus from fun to an unhealthy mindset.

Sure, even Classic and TBC Classic had some issues. Warcraft Logs is the disease that plague the game right now, it sucks but at least it's done outside of the game and not everyone is using it.

With achievements, elitism is taken to a whole new level, as it's accessible in game. "LFM XXX, link XXX achievement", this nightmare happened for too many years and the hype of WotLK has made people forget about this hell. WotLK is gonna turn the game pretty much into retail. People are gonna spend hours looking for groups and then quit, this will make the game unhealthy in every way possible. It's the never ending circle. You cannot get invited without an achievement, but you cannot get the achievement without getting invited. Unless you get the achievement the FIRST week, you are pretty much screwed. Week 2 we will see "LFM Naxx, Link achievement" and if you don't, you won't get in.

Yes there are ways around it, like ways to link fake achievements, but that's not the big issue, the big issue is that WotLK Classic will change the mindset of many people, changing what I believe what Classic should be. Classic should be a nostalgia trip, never a competitive game. I think WotLK could be such a good game, but I fear it will once again be ruined, just like in 2008-2010.

What do you guys think of this? Do you see this as a problem like I do? Do you think this will kill the spirit and fun of the game? Do you also hope achievements will never be added?

And please, no "just lead your own group", this is never a solution, not everyone is leader material, and since only 1 person can be leader, it's not a reasonable demand EVERYONE is the leader to actually play.

I loved every second of Wrath right up until they pre patch when they destroyed DK's for the rest of the game. Other than that I love every second and every aspect of this expansion I led 2-3 25M pugs a week the content is fairly easy and makes for a fun time pugging and raiding in general.

[Battlebeard]

I loved every second of Wrath right up until they pre patch when they destroyed DK's for the rest of the game. Other than that I love every second and every aspect of this expansion I led 2-3 25M pugs a week the content is fairly easy and makes for a fun time pugging and raiding in general.

I liked it too back in the day. It's not as good as Cataclysm, but surely a good expansion. However, back then I was lucky enough to have a guild. Now I cannot guildraid. Back then it was heaven, now I fear it will be hell

Hopefully, if we are lucky, there will be SOME nice pug leaders who can give people a chance who don't have achievements, but I don't have much hope

[schwank05]

I liked it too back in the day. It's not as good as Cataclysm, but surely a good expansion. However, back then I was lucky enough to have a guild. Now I cannot guildraid. Back then it was heaven, now I fear it will be hell

Hopefully, if we are lucky, there will be SOME nice pug leaders who can give people a chance who don't have achievements, but I don't have much hope

I was in a guild then and have been in one and will continue to be in the same guild for all of TBCC. Pretty easy to find a guild that plays at your play times. If you cannot commit to a guild I would say that WOTLK Classic is not for you as there is no LFR so what other reason is there to play outside of raiding.

[loras]

Which is of course the biggest disease the game got, Achievements. And also a few other things, like Gearscore addons etc.

WotLK is the beginning of the end for the community, and an inclusive game. WotLK is when the game became elitistic for real, as we started seeing ways in game to divide the community and shift the focus from fun to an unhealthy mindset.

Sure, even Classic and TBC Classic had some issues. Warcraft Logs is the disease that plague the game right now, it sucks but at least it's done outside of the game and not everyone is using it.

With achievements, elitism is taken to a whole new level, as it's accessible in game. "LFM XXX, link XXX achievement", this nightmare happened for too many years and the hype of WotLK has made people forget about this hell. WotLK is gonna turn the game pretty much into retail. People are gonna spend hours looking for groups and then quit, this will make the game unhealthy in every way possible. It's the never ending circle. You cannot get invited without an achievement, but you cannot get the achievement without getting invited. Unless you get the achievement the FIRST week, you are pretty much screwed. Week 2 we will see "LFM Naxx, Link achievement" and if you don't, you won't get in.

Yes there are ways around it, like ways to link fake achievements, but that's not the big issue, the big issue is that WotLK Classic will change the mindset of many people, changing what I believe what Classic should be. Classic should be a nostalgia trip, never a competitive game. I think WotLK could be such a good game, but I fear it will once again be ruined, just like in 2008-2010.

What do you guys think of this? Do you see this as a problem like I do? Do you think this will kill the spirit and fun of the game? Do you also hope achievements will never be added?

And please, no "just lead your own group", this is never a solution, not everyone is leader material, and since only 1 person can be leader, it's not a reasonable demand EVERYONE is the leader to actually play.

I do remember this, yes.
But it was more of a social change, a strongly held delusion that complex performance can be accurately measured and predicted from minimal data.

It now permeates every part of society, as untrue as it was back then. So in short: You're not gonna be able to avoid that.

Well, until its downsides start taking their toll beyond what can be denied anyway, which may not take that long anymore, but that's getting into some of the more curious aspects of qualitative macroeconomics, and this is neither the right place nor the right language for that.