Why does wow's community come off as so entitled?

[Coldkil]

I see these opinions same as "Elden ring should be accessible by all"

But it is. There's plenty of easy modes baked in the game. Maybe the fact is that people is stupid most of the time and your own personal skill doesn't count for the most part in a cooperative game.

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this right here shows you have no clue about mythic raiding
so why you are suggesting things for content you know nothing off ?

If you want the gear, you're better off running M+ and get decked in a much shorter time. If you're really aiming to minmax, your gear IS a combo of M+ and raid. Yu're probably one of the guys who asks 270ilvl to pug HC or 2500 rating for +10s.

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Its not the reason for all the people that dropped the game, but it damages the game, its the same with subscriptions, do you think they stopped announcing it for any other reason?

Were you there when the stocks dropped because they announced record profits as a company, but WoW lost 1million subs, therefor despite massive profit, the stockholders lost money simply from social media shenanigans and similar?

The game has problems, but the average poster about it is like the antivaxxers in facebook groups, low intelligence and lots of free time to post shit without having a clue.

Wouldn't go that far but i cannot say i don't agree here

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I would argue the vault needs to be done away with and its rewards moved to mythic 20 myself.

Vault has a lot of work to be done, but in general i'm fine with the idea that if i do enough content during the week, i get an additional roll. The main issue with the vault to me is that since the loot table is huge, the chances of getting actually useful stuff is just very very very low. And you cannot really solve that - example trinkets, some are extremely good and others are terrible independently from their ilvl. And making a too smart loot from vault means its getting to easy/fast to get gear.

I see Vault as basically the thing i look for when i start a new patch - easy ilvl increases and if i'm lucky i can drop a weapon/trinket right from the start. Once i'm nearly done with raids and KSM i usually even stop doing actually any M+. I don't need the gear other as a tool to reach objectives and while i look at what's bis, if i don't get it all i don't care as long as i beat the fights/objectives i aim for.

[Nymrohd]

Vault has a lot of work to be done, but in general i'm fine with the idea that if i do enough content during the week, i get an additional roll. The main issue with the vault to me is that since the loot table is huge, the chances of getting actually useful stuff is just very very very low. And you cannot really solve that - example trinkets, some are extremely good and others are terrible independently from their ilvl. And making a too smart loot from vault means its getting to easy/fast to get gear.

I keep reminding people that the original Vault design was that we would have coins and we would be able to spend a coin so as to target a specific encounter's loot table for one of our Vault slots. I'd like to believe that they just could not pull it off because of engine limitations but it is entirely possible they chose less RNG protection.

[NineSpine]

And you dont understand thats how you view it and it doesnt reflect reality.

No one randomly joins groups, BECAUSE YOU CANT RANDOMLY JOIN GROUPS and starts screaming dear murder.

99/100 of your posts end up being about freebie gear, despite claiming at some point in your life you supposedly did challenging content, it just sounds you simply dont have anyone to play with therefor the game must change to reward your solo playing, or whatever else pathetic excuse you are gonna use to end up screaming freebie gear again.

None of the things you post ever happen in game, even the shittiest players i know dont meet these things, but somehow you magically ONLY experience that.

You simultaneously act like the people I am describing while claiming these people don't exist and also claiming they are in the right for acting that way.

I want the game to be fun and rewarding for *everyone who plays it*. You want the game to be fun a nd rewarding for you and not fun and rewarding for other people because you have a degenerate view that your fun is contingent on other people not having fun.

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What a nonsensical argument.

Imagine joining a pickup basketball game at the gym where everyone wants to win, standing around picking your nose, then wondering why the rest of your team are annoyed at you. If you join a basketball team, there is an unspoken expectation that you will do your best to win your matches unless you have a different understanding specifically with your group. The same is true of WoW; the default is to actually try with your group so that everyone pulls your weight. If that's not your intention, you shouldn't be joining random groups - you should be making groups where the other players know and agree with your intent.

It's not a "basketball team". It's a pickup game. Acting like you joined a team and are playing in a league is exactly the degenerate attitude I am talking about.

The default is to try to complete the content, but completing the content is not good enough for some people.

[Relapses]

Even the removal of 10 man raiding goes somewhat to show this idea of holding the majority hostage to prop the minority up. 10-man raiding was incredibly popular (in relative terms, compared with raiding in totality), and still remains a common request to this day. Blizzard ostensibly didn't want to deal with the balance issues between the two modes, while ignoring the fact that it doesn't actually matter if the balance between 10 and 25man raiding isn't exactly perfect unless they require them to be exactly equal, which isn't needed. Again; if people want to 25man raid they will 25man raid; if people can choose between 10 or 25 man raiding and choose 10man, its because they don't want to do 25man raids. Removing the mode to create a captive audience for those who want to raid 25man (now 20) is shoehorning the majority to fill the needs of the minority.

Brother, Blizzard didn't remove the 10/25 dichotomy because they couldn't balance them. They removed it because designing two versions of every encounter is dumb as fuck and severely limits the creativity of the encounter designers. The fact that they chose 20M in a game with 30+ spec/class combinations should not be a surprise to anybody because if they had chose a raid size smaller than that all the same people who are currently bitching about the lack of "small raid content" would instead be bitching about how bullshit it is that {x class/spec} is not properly represented in raiding.

[Hctaz]

See and i enjoyed legion because i could just play. No pressure and i always had something to do.

Honestly if it wasn't for the AP grind i suspect legion would have had something for literally everyone with minimal to no pressure.

Right, so that's why I totally understand the argument from people who enjoyed the way Legion was handled.
I can see through the lens of a casual raider or somebody who doesn't specifically find cutting edge Mythic progression to be fun that they would have had a great time in Legion.

I think the idea was good, but the execution wasn't.

I think, ideally, the game would keep the cutting edge players (Gladiator arena teams, the best M+ groups, and cutting edge Mythic raiders) away from ridiculous grinds while giving everybody something to do.

Like the high end content should reward the highest level gear, but there should be alternative (and more deterministic) ways for players to level up their weaker gear. Like maybe you can just gain badges or something and you can eventually turn your Heroic gear into Mythic or near Mythic quality gear. I have absolutely nothing against other people having comparable gear to me, I just don't want to feel like I'm required to run Heroic raids weekly on my main in order to have a chance to get lucky and get gear that will help me in my main raid. It led to situations where we were still clearing Heroic raids weekly despite having mostly Mythic raid gear.

I enjoyed raiding on my alts in Wrath because, otherwise, I was only able to run the raid one time per week on my main.

So yeah, remove necessary grinds, make thinks for people to do to level up their non-Mythic gear to Mythic level, and make more optional content that can just be enjoyed without needing to have some kind of reward system behind it. The Chromie Scenario was actually really fun IMO.

[Sorrior]

It's 100% because the old style grouping of traditional MMORPGs run directly country to how 98% of online games work, and Blizzard deliberately tries to market WoW to people that would otherwise have no interest in MMORPGs, make the game play one way, then bait and switch it out at the endgame because Blizzard has a massive hard on for raiding and Mythic+. What Blizzard wants, what the community wants, what hardcore player wants, and what the community actually consists of are in all direct conflict with one another, and it's been this way for ages. It's just gotten much worse because modern games are way more convenient in how playing with strangers work.
I never could get into it, but I'd be curious as to why you don't hear this kind of stuff nearly as much with that big FF MMORPG. My kneejerk assumption would be that they offer a variety of content for a variety of play styles that offers something meaningful for those targeting it.

They do. It also uses a gearing system similar to wrath where if you run even one random max dungeon for ohh 5 maybe 6 days you'll be capped and after two weeks can buy a chest ir leg item(hands, feet, helm and accessories in one week)

The high end versions capped thpugh and raiders get slightly better gear but not massively better so it's more balanced.

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Right, so that's why I totally understand the argument from people who enjoyed the way Legion was handled.
I can see through the lens of a casual raider or somebody who doesn't specifically find cutting edge Mythic progression to be fun that they would have had a great time in Legion.

I think the idea was good, but the execution wasn't.

I think, ideally, the game would keep the cutting edge players (Gladiator arena teams, the best M+ groups, and cutting edge Mythic raiders) away from ridiculous grinds while giving everybody something to do.

Like the high end content should reward the highest level gear, but there should be alternative (and more deterministic) ways for players to level up their weaker gear. Like maybe you can just gain badges or something and you can eventually turn your Heroic gear into Mythic or near Mythic quality gear. I have absolutely nothing against other people having comparable gear to me, I just don't want to feel like I'm required to run Heroic raids weekly on my main in order to have a chance to get lucky and get gear that will help me in my main raid. It led to situations where we were still clearing Heroic raids weekly despite having mostly Mythic raid gear.

I enjoyed raiding on my alts in Wrath because, otherwise, I was only able to run the raid one time per week on my main.

So yeah, remove necessary grinds, make thinks for people to do to level up their non-Mythic gear to Mythic level, and make more optional content that can just be enjoyed without needing to have some kind of reward system behind it. The Chromie Scenario was actually really fun IMO.

I agree. If they'd go back to deterministic gearing as an alternative i think it would be much better(and raiders would still get first dibs for several months ofc).

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I see these opinions same as "Elden ring should be accessible by all. It has the same energy. Something like "I have children/work/life.. i want to touch grass etc but i also want to have what the mythic raiders have. LFR doesn't count, and hell nawh i dont have the time to sit for 3-4 hours, 2 days per week to progress some lame ass boss.

What these guys are saying is basically "if i cant have it, no one shouldD make all games dumb easy to make everyone feel included.

You can join a guild who progresses HC versions of raids, and have a hell of a good time still. Crying about pug leaders who want experienced players for a smooth run, is as cringe as it gets for this community.

I use to raid in a top 1000 guild back in Cata. Now im guildess for years. I dont run in to any of these problems because i realise that just like in the real world, you cant expect people to behave a certain way just because it hurt your feelings for not getting invited to a pug. You find solutions to these problems instead of whining about it on the internet bro's. Like using an external website to find and apply for pugs. I do it all the time on alts and its usually the smoothest pug runs

Not really i am obviously in full support of less ilv gap and deterministic gearing via a point/token system in wow even for dailies/wqs.

But i also am completely against easy modes in soulsbourne games as it just ruins the experience/playstyle. The entire game shifts from mood to gameplay etc.

The big difference though is in a soulsbourne your iwn skills can compensate entirely or you can grind to becone stronger.

Neither of those are true for WoW given ilv has such a hard cap at such a(in wow terms) "low" ilv. And no i don't even mean mythic but even one tier below would be better then what it usually is in wow these days

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My point is, that the lower intelligent bad players use whatever cheap ass excuse that makes no sense to create echo chambers.

Blizzard then chooses one of the 100 echo chambers to fix, and they fuck up, in SL case, "RPG CHOICES" echo chamber that fucked Shadowlands completely, or they could have listened to anyone else.

Everyone believes Blizzard is out to personally get them, when 99% of the changes they do to raids, doesnt affect 99% of the game population, so what is it?

At least as far as rpg elements go more like they missed what people even meant or got it right but in wrong ways.

I just think they lack any emotional intelligence tbh. It's all about numbers not simple emotions/fun these days(or so it seems)

[dragonflight10]

But it is. There's plenty of easy modes baked in the game. Maybe the fact is that people is stupid most of the time and your own personal skill doesn't count for the most part in a cooperative game.

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If you want the gear, you're better off running M+ and get decked in a much shorter time. If you're really aiming to minmax, your gear IS a combo of M+ and raid. Yu're probably one of the guys who asks 270ilvl to pug HC or 2500 rating for +10s.

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Wouldn't go that far but i cannot say i don't agree here

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Vault has a lot of work to be done, but in general i'm fine with the idea that if i do enough content during the week, i get an additional roll. The main issue with the vault to me is that since the loot table is huge, the chances of getting actually useful stuff is just very very very low. And you cannot really solve that - example trinkets, some are extremely good and others are terrible independently from their ilvl. And making a too smart loot from vault means its getting to easy/fast to get gear.

I see Vault as basically the thing i look for when i start a new patch - easy ilvl increases and if i'm lucky i can drop a weapon/trinket right from the start. Once i'm nearly done with raids and KSM i usually even stop doing actually any M+. I don't need the gear other as a tool to reach objectives and while i look at what's bis, if i don't get it all i don't care as long as i beat the fights/objectives i aim for.

your argument is not vaild, as alot of people explained that loot from mythic raid matters

Don't assume sh!t lol
What about last bosses higher ilvl ? by your concept none of their loot is Bis ?

[cparle87]

Could you please redirect me to the part of the ToS and the EULA where it is expressly mentioned that after paying to enter the game, any and all progress are dependent on buying player services on the side as well as paying blizzard directly in order to buy items that are bound to baseline game progress (legendaries). I don't see it implied in the ToS/EULA that any and all players are obliged to pay extra in order to progress and it would seem that certain game features like removal of most grind gold sources exist in order to oblige players to stay subbed and or buy gold from blizzard in order to achieve the minimum progress required.

If you call it "entitled" to want to play a game with a reasonable expectation of progress and a reasonable expectation that having paid a sub and having purchased the game at premium price one will not be obliged to pay for services on the side as it happens in f2p games, then so be it lets call ourselves "entitled" for asking wow to behave like a premium game that it is and not like an ios/android cheapex f2p.

I mean lets face it, a future where we click to buy some shit from the AH and we are obliged to watch advertisements is seemingly not that far away.

It is not required to buy any services to progress the game, so your argument holds no water. The game literally showers you with gold. Do a calling, 4k. Empty your bags of trash, another 1k. Sell the herbs you gathered while questing that day, another 10k. If you don't have gold the problem is you.

Don't try to pass it off like this is SWTOR where you need to pay a sub to enter a raid more than X times a week, have all the hotbars, or equip epics.

Again. Your sub entitles you to log in and play the game as is. Anything and everything beyond that is, yes, entitlement.

[Ghost of Cow]

What a nonsensical argument.

Imagine joining a pickup basketball game at the gym where everyone wants to win, standing around picking your nose, then wondering why the rest of your team are annoyed at you. If you join a basketball team, there is an unspoken expectation that you will do your best to win your matches unless you have a different understanding specifically with your group. The same is true of WoW; the default is to actually try with your group so that everyone pulls your weight. If that's not your intention, you shouldn't be joining random groups - you should be making groups where the other players know and agree with your intent.

Who said anything about not trying? The entire topic was about crazy gear/experience expectations for pugs.

On one of my fresh 60's I have a higher item level than anything that would even drop from an M+2, but there's no way I'd ever get a group without making it myself - and even then, people are like, "Oh, you're looking for a carry?".

That's just how the pug community is. Imagine new players thinking they can just progress through the content as intended.

[Azharok]

your argument is not vaild, as alot of people explained that loot from mythic raid matters

Don't assume sh!t lol
What about last bosses higher ilvl ? by your concept none of their loot is Bis ?

It's not that their loot isn't BiS, it's that it's gated behind the ability to actually kill the boss. So you could say that Jailer's loot is inconsequential to the game, because you'd have to kill him first to snag his loot. Obviously once you kill him, every extra week you'd have an easier and easier time to kill him. But I don't think that the majority of Mythic raiders actually care much about loot ONCE they've cleared it ( I would imagine anyway, I could be wrong ). In the sense that having the extra ilvl from last bosses is nice for like a future tier or to push higher keys, but they didn't need it in the first place to actually kill the bosses.

[Aedruid]

It doesnt exist, you are trying to join a group out of your skill level is the problem that exists and instead of realizing you are the problem, you think its the game.

The 4th alt of the 3000 rating player isnt gonna waste his time with your "I CAME BACK TO THE GAME AFTER 2 YEARS" character when there are literally around to 300K characters more qualified than you and i am being generous with the 300k characters that are his level.

The game changed the last 10 years so the whole community can progress together in their 4 respective difficulties, but you guys cant understand that, you think that because you are not stuck in Karazhan when the others are clearing Sunwell, you deserve to play with them.

You are gonna find your equals, you are gonna run M0 and you are gonna wipe and disband your group and then complain about it on here about how the game is toxic.

You misread my statement. I said LESS THAN a +10 key, which equates to low skill level players and/or undergeared players.

[Delekii]

Your whole post was already addressed in the thread.

Path of least resistance is bad argument, because people should have the option to do what they enjoy doing, and not be worried about gear outcomes of that choice. Because of its granularity, there is no reason for m+ to be held at a level where it doesn't compete (from a skill perspective, not an organisational perspective) with raiding. If that means people pick the path of least resistance, it's because that's what they chose Todo, instead ofwhat they had to do, as is the case with raiding now.

If that leads to issues with class positions in the meta, it is no different to raids, and it is an issue that Blizzard needs fix - like always. If you have a discussion that goes "this content is good but some specs are too shit so we can't use it", the answer is to fix the shit specs, not avoid the content.

[Relapses]

Your whole post was already addressed in the thread.

Path of least resistance is bad argument, because people should have the option to do what they enjoy doing, and not be worried about gear outcomes of that choice. Because of its granularity, there is no reason for m+ to be held at a level where it doesn't compete (from a skill perspective, not an organisational perspective) with raiding. If that means people pick the path of least resistance, it's because that's what they chose Todo, instead ofwhat they had to do, as is the case with raiding now.

If that leads to issues with class positions in the meta, it is no different to raids, and it is an issue that Blizzard needs fix - like always. If you have a discussion that goes "this content is good but some specs are too shit so we can't use it", the answer is to fix the shit specs, not avoid the content.

Then what you're arguing for is homogenization of specs by making certain class kits less unique or able to be covered by more than one class/spec. Considering Blizzard has made a deliberate move away from homogenization, I'd say this is not the way forward... especially, imo, if it means "small raid content" never returning to the game's menu. There's plenty of great small raid content to experienced in other MMOs, should you seek it. Hell, even WoW lets you have it up to a point. But there's no other game which provides a similar large-group endgame raid experience and it'd be a shame if one of the few things which sets WoW apart from its competition were to go away.

(For the record, I know this is not a particularly popular opinion but I'd say 5 expansions of Blizzard keeping the same raid paradigm indicates the developers are satisfied with the current status-quo.)

[HansOlo]

I don't give anything about this community.
Everybody just talks without any insight.

How did Diablo Immortal sell more than 30 millions copies before the release?

Maybe you think you know?
https://www.wowhead.com/news/30-mill...nlocked-326844

[Swnem]

I don't give anything about this community.
Everybody just talks without any insight.

How did Diablo Immortal sell more than 30 millions copies before the release?

Maybe you think you know?
https://www.wowhead.com/news/30-mill...nlocked-326844

Dude... it's a free download, that's why.

That's not 30m players. It's 30m trying a game for free. I doubt 1/60th of those stay. Also, you get goodies for pre-registering.

[Azharok]

You seem really fun and totally not a self centered, hypercompetitive, toxic person who takes a video game way too seriously >.>

No I play for fun, what's fun to me is timing the key. How is it self-centered to waste everyone's time including theirs ? If you just want to finish the key, feel free to post a "weekly no leavers". I'm never rude towards others in keys, and we'll invite the best fit. The lower the key level the less specific we are about who we pick. Running sub 10s we just take whoever posts first. But when we're doing 20s and up, if we need XYZ spec/covenant/role, we'll wait till we get one. If my time or enjoyment isn't important, theirs isn't either, you can't have it both ways.

[Dzonathan]

Now everything I am about to bring up can be seen in any mmo. This isn't about wow having unique problems just the frequency I see it compared to other games.

With that out of the way... why is it that in wow players just come off as brats as the norm?

You see people complaining constantly that they are not invited to high level content without having done any high level content. You see people turning their noses at starting gear claiming that it isn't near best in slot and only more powerful then the first few tiers of difficult content...


I just don't get why... in most communities these players are laughed out but here I wouldn't say they are catered to but they come off as the norm.

It's a generational thing caused by blizz constantly changing direction and taking away the little things that add up over time.

Badge gear enjoyers are still salty they lost them.
FP whistle enjoyers are still salty they lost it.
Quick WQ enjoyers are still salty they lost them.
Those who enjoyed full exhaustion of one thematic villian like LK are still salty they reduced N'zoth and Ashara to single patches when these two entities were two expansion materials in their own right had the writting team had enough creativity.

By constantly making sharp turns and changing directions they create a centrifugal force that causes people to jump overboard and unsubscribe. The ones are that left are jaded.

[Azharok]

If that leads to issues with class positions in the meta, it is no different to raids, and it is an issue that Blizzard needs fix - like always. If you have a discussion that goes "this content is good but some specs are too shit so we can't use it", the answer is to fix the shit specs, not avoid the content.

Except the meta starts being relevant long after the rewards stop pouring in. If you want to play Feral or BM in 15 it's fine. And it's only relevant on like super early prog when everyone is scrapping by with the little gear they've managed to scrounge together. None of it becomes relevant once everyone starts having full 4P with decent weapons and trinkets.

[Devilyaki]

You seem really fun and totally not a self centered, hypercompetitive, toxic person who takes a video game way too seriously >.>

Can you really fault him for playing this way when it is pretty much how blizzard has made m+

[Coldkil]

I keep reminding people that the original Vault design was that we would have coins and we would be able to spend a coin so as to target a specific encounter's loot table for one of our Vault slots. I'd like to believe that they just could not pull it off because of engine limitations but it is entirely possible they chose less RNG protection.

Well, in 9.2.5 it's becoming a literal coin you can use to buy a specific loot piece. They're gonna change stuff, how we still don't know since they're gonna try all sort of things.

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(For the record, I know this is not a particularly popular opinion but I'd say 5 expansions of Blizzard keeping the same raid paradigm indicates the developers are satisfied with the current status-quo.)

Though they're now making it pretty apparent they're gonna have "changes in the design philosophy" which is as broad of a definition as it can be. But i also agree the raid size is pretty fine where it is for them. Granted Mythic raids are something not developed to appeal the mass playerbase and normal/HC being flex basically already solves the issue.