10.0 should remove the timer from Mythic+ dungeons...

[NineSpine]

Doesn't WoW cover that with the Great Vault? You pick what content you want to do and you get a weekly reward. The Timewalking and M0 weeklies offer higher gear as well though they aren't as often.

Great vault requires non-casual activities.

Timewalking is cool, weeklies are cool, but ultimately the gear levels are so low that they aren't a great part of a full endgame loop.

[rhorle]

Great vault requires non-casual activities.

You didn't state that Destiny 2 and FF14 allow "casual activities". Besides low mythic+ are about as casual as you can get considering you can get +8/9 gear from the open world currently so you can out gear a +8 or below. LFR also triggers the great vault though its rewards are subpar because you can easily gain higher item level rewards from Zerith Mortis.

[Dakara]

As much as I dislike the timer (specifically, timed content), it serves a purpose in M+ and prevents people going in with 3 Tanks, 1 Healer, 1 AoE DPS and waiting 10 minutes between each Mega pull for Hero/Lust.

What I despise however, is there is no real alternative to M+ in the Dungeon scene... it completely replaced the previous systems (such as badges) via Heroics.

Personally, the perfect balance would be to see the timer (and M+ in general) kicking off at the +10 level (seasonal affix) and replacing lower keys/rewards with a return of the badge system through Heroic/Mythic Dungeons, via LFD for those who chose to use it.

Keep M+ intact for those who enjoy it but create an alternative for those who don't.

[Revamp Man]

Great vault requires non-casual activities.

Timewalking is cool, weeklies are cool, but ultimately the gear levels are so low that they aren't a great part of a full endgame loop.

I forgot lfr is useless and meaningless elitist non casual content

[Algorath]

Great vault requires non-casual activities.

Timewalking is cool, weeklies are cool, but ultimately the gear levels are so low that they aren't a great part of a full endgame loop.

To be fair, if the great vault had like "Do 20 world quests" or "Beat 10 Pet Battles" and it gave 278 gear, that'd be terrible.

They could have two separate vaults, a "Great Vault" for skilled players playing the game and a "Tiny Vault" for casuals farming for The Explorer title, that gives battle pets, and hearthstone animations, transmogs and stuff. The game definitely needs something to make it more engaging for people who aren't interested in doing end game stuff, but I don't think throwing end-game rewards for non-end game activities is the way to go. Why would someone who only does, let's say 5 timewalking dungeons per week, as well as some quests and battle pet stuff, be happy with getting a 278 weapon, it doesn't make sense.

[schwarzkopf]

They shouldn't remove the timer, but they should give a +0 to a completion over a fail.

There is currently no incentive to complete a failed timer, you get a -1 key either way.

Logically:

fail : -1
complete : +0
just beat timer : +1
beat timer : +2
beat timer a lot : +3

[kaminaris]

Destiny 2 provides weekly rewards for engaging in most of the types of content in the game. Run three strikes? Get an upgrade. Do 3 pvp matches? Get an upgrade. This applies to nearly everything in the game. These upgrades will eventually give you the same gear level as someone who does the hardest content in the game.

Final Fantasy 14 has nine different daily activities to queue into. From these, you get tomestones that allow you to buy great gear over the course of weeks.

Yep destiny 2 gearing system is pretty nice, can confirm, way ahead of this nonsense we had in wow.

[chiddie]

I thought you didn't play for the rewards though. You wanted a challenge. Or am I confusing different people now.

There are games where the challenge is more than enough. But those are games with a proper combat system that allows victory also via skill and not only via outgearing enemies.

WoW is not that type of game because it’s entirely rewards driven from day 1. I’d like proper solo challenges without a freakin timer and with proper rewards.

[GnomeEU]

While I agree timers should be more relaxed.
Like double the time?

The problem is the community, people will still leave your run after a wipe and you can't replace them etc.

Maybe the best system was during mists of pandaria where you could get the best gear from pvp. It just took you twice the time if you played low rating.

[Zmagoslav]

Great vault requires non-casual activities.

Timewalking is cool, weeklies are cool, but ultimately the gear levels are so low that they aren't a great part of a full endgame loop.

How exactly is running a few M+ a week non-casual content?
It takes at most an hour to get yourself a group and finish the dungeon. After 2 weeks you should be able to get into +10, which awards heroic-lvl gear.
And i say that as a melee dps player, who just returned to the game after a year, with no guild to boost me or time to invest into hardcore gameplay.

[chiddie]

While I agree timers should be more relaxed.
Like double the time?

The problem is the community, people will still leave your run after a wipe and you can't replace them etc.

Maybe the best system was during mists of pandaria where you could get the best gear from pvp. It just took you twice the time if you played low rating.

Timer per se could be fine. Problem is that in WoW it’s used more to punish who fails it instead of to reward people that beat it.

D3 rifts have all a 15 mins timer, I’ve NEVER seen ANYONE complain about it in 10 years. Give them a try and figure why.

[Tiev]

I tend to agree with the OP on one thing and disagree on the other.

I don't mind difficult dungeons at all. In fact, I love them. Loved Cata heroics!

I heavily dislike being pressured into doing it fast though. Probably why I haven't raided seriously in a long time since you're pretty much required to run m+ in order to keep up with raiding gear.

[Azharok]

Timer per se could be fine. Problem is that in WoW it’s used more to punish who fails it instead of to reward people that beat it.

D3 rifts have all a 15 mins timer, I’ve NEVER seen ANYONE complain about it in 10 years. Give them a try and figure why.

Because they are piss easy, and can be completed solo, so the only reason you didn't complete them is on you, and on you alone.

Now if we go back to M+ besides the fact that you do indeed have to form a group which can take a bit of time depending on your current score, your spec, and the key lvl you're aiming at. But you could post your OWN key and play it. The timer doesn't become relevant till the 10-15s bracket unless you're playing with absolute garbage players.

I had a 13PF on my 230 Ret, I decided to deplete it to a 10 because I didn't feel like getting carried for a 13. I grabbed the people who queued up for it. No kicks, no CC on first boss, no one DPSing the barrel on 2nd boss. People dying to avoidable shit, people body pulling stuff they shouldn't. I went in with the mindset that I wasn't going to be an elitist jerk so I stayed until the tank gave up. I was top DPS all along with my "low ilvl".

I don't know if the game does a piss poor job at teaching new players how to play their class, or if they realise that there is "some" stuff to do in M+, but it wasn't a fun experience. No amount of gear you throw to the "bad players" will save them from depleting keystones.

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There are games where the challenge is more than enough. But those are games with a proper combat system that allows victory also via skill and not only via outgearing enemies.

WoW is not that type of game because it’s entirely rewards driven from day 1. I’d like proper solo challenges without a freakin timer and with proper rewards.

Once you're above 15s you cannot "outgear" enemies. So it is precisely Skill>Gear at that point.

[Iain]

There are games where the challenge is more than enough. But those are games with a proper combat system that allows victory also via skill and not only via outgearing enemies.

WoW is not that type of game because it’s entirely rewards driven from day 1. I’d like proper solo challenges without a freakin timer and with proper rewards.

Like stacking affixes? Personally I rather see an ever-shortening timer than the difficulty getting padded with affixes. The timer is elegant whereas affixes are mainly reducing the flexibility with which a party can deal with mobs. But if people really hate the timer this much then continuously adding these affixes to increase the difficulty is all I can think of.

[Caerrona]

Don't play like dogshit and don't group with dogshit players... there problem solved enjoy your mythic gear without worrying about the timer.

[chiddie]

Because they are piss easy, and can be completed solo, so the only reason you didn't complete them is on you, and on you alone.

Now if we go back to M+ besides the fact that you do indeed have to form a group which can take a bit of time depending on your current score, your spec, and the key lvl you're aiming at. But you could post your OWN key and play it. The timer doesn't become relevant till the 10-15s bracket unless you're playing with absolute garbage players.

I had a 13PF on my 230 Ret, I decided to deplete it to a 10 because I didn't feel like getting carried for a 13. I grabbed the people who queued up for it. No kicks, no CC on first boss, no one DPSing the barrel on 2nd boss. People dying to avoidable shit, people body pulling stuff they shouldn't. I went in with the mindset that I wasn't going to be an elitist jerk so I stayed until the tank gave up. I was top DPS all along with my "low ilvl".

I don't know if the game does a piss poor job at teaching new players how to play their class, or if they realise that there is "some" stuff to do in M+, but it wasn't a fun experience. No amount of gear you throw to the "bad players" will save them from depleting keystones.

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Once you're above 15s you cannot "outgear" enemies. So it is precisely Skill>Gear at that point.

D3 rifts scale too. They are easy only up to a certain point. At high levels it’s more about fishing for the right maps and that is bad too, but some amount of skill is indeed required besides the proper gear. The point is that loot is not dependent from the rift level once you get to GR90, that is not difficult at all. Your reward is the fun in pushing and leaderboard and that is more than enough. No one cares about other players’ stats.

The competition is not morbid.

Indeed WoW does very little about teaching mechanics step by step. Outside M+ mechanics are trivial, no wonder no one go for the barrel in PF if before they hadn’t to. And people should not watch videos or read wowhead to learn mechanics, it’s a game not a job.

Blizzard should leave ALL the mechanics in lower difficulties only making them less lethal but mandatory to be executed to continue the fight. For example in heroic difficulty the boss could become invulnerable when the barrel pops out so people will learn that they have to destroy it instead of ignoring it. And then they will do it in M10 also because they learnt it has to be done.

[Caerrona]

D3 rifts scale too. They are easy only up to a certain point. At high levels it’s more about fishing for the right maps and that is bad too, but some amount of skill is indeed required besides the proper gear. The point is that loot is not dependent from the rift level once you get to GR90, that is not difficult at all. Your reward is the fun in pushing and leaderboard and that is more than enough. No one cares about other players’ stats.

The competition is not morbid.

Indeed WoW does very little about teaching mechanics step by step. Outside M+ mechanics are trivial, no wonder no one go for the barrel in PF if before they hadn’t to. And people should not watch videos or read wowhead to learn mechanics, it’s a game not a job.

Blizzard should leave ALL the mechanics in lower difficulties only making them less lethal but mandatory to be executed to continue the fight. For example in heroic difficulty the boss could become invulnerable when the barrel pops out so people will learn that they have to destroy it instead of ignoring it. And then they will do it in M10 also because they learnt it has to be done.

In every single game ever invented if you want to play *optimally* you need to be reading outside sources.

There isn't a single I have heard of/played that has 100% of all information needed.
100% optimization on-
Items
Routes
Bosses
Random mobs
Abilities
Gear
Rotations
Talents
Secrets
And many many many more to add to this list that I CBA to think of.

Stop being shit on other peoples time.

[uncl55]

Removing timer would be great

[Tehalbino]

Because they are piss easy, and can be completed solo, so the only reason you didn't complete them is on you, and on you alone.

Now if we go back to M+ besides the fact that you do indeed have to form a group which can take a bit of time depending on your current score, your spec, and the key lvl you're aiming at. But you could post your OWN key and play it. The timer doesn't become relevant till the 10-15s bracket unless you're playing with absolute garbage players.

I had a 13PF on my 230 Ret, I decided to deplete it to a 10 because I didn't feel like getting carried for a 13. I grabbed the people who queued up for it. No kicks, no CC on first boss, no one DPSing the barrel on 2nd boss. People dying to avoidable shit, people body pulling stuff they shouldn't. I went in with the mindset that I wasn't going to be an elitist jerk so I stayed until the tank gave up. I was top DPS all along with my "low ilvl".

I don't know if the game does a piss poor job at teaching new players how to play their class, or if they realise that there is "some" stuff to do in M+, but it wasn't a fun experience. No amount of gear you throw to the "bad players" will save them from depleting keystones.

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Once you're above 15s you cannot "outgear" enemies. So it is precisely Skill>Gear at that point.

? 15s you can pretty much still ignore everything. I'd say near +24 is when most random target casts and abilities are near lethal/one shot.



I honestly thought that this topic was a subtle troll/bait attempt but came to the sad realization that the OP is actually serious.

I'd actually advocate for much stricter timers and better rewards. Legion 3chesting was an amazing system but far too easy for max rewards.

[crusadernero]

Because they are piss easy, and can be completed solo, so the only reason you didn't complete them is on you, and on you alone.

Now if we go back to M+ besides the fact that you do indeed have to form a group which can take a bit of time depending on your current score, your spec, and the key lvl you're aiming at. But you could post your OWN key and play it. The timer doesn't become relevant till the 10-15s bracket unless you're playing with absolute garbage players.

I had a 13PF on my 230 Ret, I decided to deplete it to a 10 because I didn't feel like getting carried for a 13. I grabbed the people who queued up for it. No kicks, no CC on first boss, no one DPSing the barrel on 2nd boss. People dying to avoidable shit, people body pulling stuff they shouldn't. I went in with the mindset that I wasn't going to be an elitist jerk so I stayed until the tank gave up. I was top DPS all along with my "low ilvl".

I don't know if the game does a piss poor job at teaching new players how to play their class, or if they realise that there is "some" stuff to do in M+, but it wasn't a fun experience. No amount of gear you throw to the "bad players" will save them from depleting keystones.

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Once you're above 15s you cannot "outgear" enemies. So it is precisely Skill>Gear at that point.

The game does a piss job in preparing players for 10+ m runs. THink for a minute - what content before that is somewhat challenging or at the very least requires a player to pay attention to stuff? Certainly doesnt happen while leveling.