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  1. #721
    Quote Originally Posted by chiddie View Post
    I am not against learning stuff in a videogame, but it should videogame itself driven, not external sources driven.

    Also, reading is one thing, remembering and put informations in practice flawlessly (because else timer is gone) is another thing.

    Every dungeon requires learning about
    - optimal path
    - skips
    - what packs and bosses do and when and how your class/spec have to deal with every single one

    All multiplied per 8 dungeons (or x16 because some things are different for the 10+ bracket).

    It’s not rocket science but it’s also not a one time 15 mins reading while you yawn watching Netflix in another window.
    Idk man, I did a +15 PF the other day with a low score pug, but that was the only party I could join due to being on my alt. Tank literally just ran straight line. No skips, no double pulls, no consideration to necro ability, boss mechanics were completely ignored, we literally healed first boss with blobs because tank ran into it thinking that he needed to tank them. That dude had S2 KSM so it means he did it for at least two seasons. We timed it even tho literally everyone was on trash dps due to the awful pulls.

  2. #722
    Quote Originally Posted by erifwodahs View Post
    Idk man, I did a +15 PF the other day with a low score pug, but that was the only party I could join due to being on my alt. Tank literally just ran straight line. No skips, no double pulls, no consideration to necro ability, boss mechanics were completely ignored, we literally healed first boss with blobs because tank ran into it thinking that he needed to tank them. That dude had S2 KSM so it means he did it for at least two seasons. We timed it even tho literally everyone was on trash dps due to the awful pulls.
    No idea how people experience this and actually clears the dungeon. I've experienced lots of situations like this and it always goes down the shitter. I see people with lots of m+ achivs and yet they do obvious mistakes over and over again. Its almost like they never really earned the score or achiv.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by chiddie View Post
    I am not against learning stuff in a videogame, but it should videogame itself driven, not external sources driven.

    Also, reading is one thing, remembering and put informations in practice flawlessly (because else timer is gone) is another thing.

    Every dungeon requires learning about
    - optimal path
    - skips
    - what packs and bosses do and when and how your class/spec have to deal with every single one

    All multiplied per 8 dungeons (or x16 because some things are different for the 10+ bracket).

    It’s not rocket science but it’s also not a one time 15 mins reading while you yawn watching Netflix in another window.
    Do what I did; Stopped tanking & Healing, switched to dps. Preferrable a ranged dps. From there just install DBM and dont stand in shit. Prio mobs accordingly. If you do that, most of it is covered. And ofc, have your class ready for the key you are doing.

    Pay attention to your surroundings while clearing mobs/bosses. No ranged class has such complex rotation that you gotta pay THAT much attention to it.

    After a while you will have learned all there is to know about the dungeons. As your key gets higher, you will also learn from(Hopefully) good players how to take optimal routes, skips etc.

    For me, as someone who has tanked, healed & been melee dps for MANY years, switching it over to ranged DPS made the game a whole lot easier lol.

  3. #723
    Scarab Lord Boricha's Avatar
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    Generally, I think the timer creates a more toxic atmosphere in the pugging world. I don't find it necessary or more fun to have. That said, I'm not someone who farms m+ or pushes high key levels. In my vision of m+, I would remove the timer, make dungeons scale harder, and change affixes to give interesting beneficial or kiss/curse effects like we've seen in Torghast.

    If the timer were to stay, I would at least remove the penalty for failing a key. Just keep the key level the same and add a method to intentionally downgrade it if you want.

  4. #724
    Quote Originally Posted by crusadernero View Post
    No idea how people experience this and actually clears the dungeon. I've experienced lots of situations like this and it always goes down the shitter. I see people with lots of m+ achivs and yet they do obvious mistakes over and over again. Its almost like they never really earned the score or achiv.
    Brute force, even if route was completely shit and pulls were crap we just didn't wipe due just because of +15 being so free with 4p and 2 legos, also last week was literally free affixes. It wasn't a good time tho.
    And ofc. I have my fair share of bad dungeons, like where tank in SD used the light shield as a defensive and we didn't have it a single time when we needed it xD That was fairly frustrating and tank was sure he was doing it alright and blamed one of dps.. for dying. After he finished the dungeon he said he hopes never to meet us again He had such a big ego with absolutely no clue about the route or the pulls or even what abilities do. The PF tank at least didn't talk shit.

  5. #725
    Quote Originally Posted by erifwodahs View Post
    Brute force, even if route was completely shit and pulls were crap we just didn't wipe due just because of +15 being so free with 4p and 2 legos, also last week was literally free affixes. It wasn't a good time tho.
    And ofc. I have my fair share of bad dungeons, like where tank in SD used the light shield as a defensive and we didn't have it a single time when we needed it xD That was fairly frustrating and tank was sure he was doing it alright and blamed one of dps.. for dying. After he finished the dungeon he said he hopes never to meet us again He had such a big ego with absolutely no clue about the route or the pulls or even what abilities do. The PF tank at least didn't talk shit.
    Haha yeah, the tanks in m+ are often like that. Goes ham on mobs and blame everyone else. its a classic in dungeons.

    To be honest, i've played this game for so long that I know how these things work. When you venture into the world of pugs, you never know whats going to happen. In a way, thats part of the charm with it. Sometimes the runs are 100% perfect without talking. Everyone just do what they are supposed to do and things just click. It happens in other games too, like in Overwatch(As example). Sometimes my team kicks ass and everything flows so good. The next game its a total shitshow.

    It happens and part of the deal with pugging, never really know how the run will pan out. Ratings/Achivs is a good indicator for sure, but its not guarantee.

    I cant bother getting mad either anymore. If it goes bad, it is what it is. Shrug it off, move along. Most times though it goes fine. If people in the grp decide its worthwhile to go mad and be toxic, be my guest. If thats how they want to pass time in the game, have at it.

  6. #726
    Quote Originally Posted by crusadernero View Post
    Haha yeah, the tanks in m+ are often like that. Goes ham on mobs and blame everyone else. its a classic in dungeons.

    To be honest, i've played this game for so long that I know how these things work. When you venture into the world of pugs, you never know whats going to happen. In a way, thats part of the charm with it. Sometimes the runs are 100% perfect without talking. Everyone just do what they are supposed to do and things just click. It happens in other games too, like in Overwatch(As example). Sometimes my team kicks ass and everything flows so good. The next game its a total shitshow.

    It happens and part of the deal with pugging, never really know how the run will pan out. Ratings/Achivs is a good indicator for sure, but its not guarantee.

    I cant bother getting mad either anymore. If it goes bad, it is what it is. Shrug it off, move along. Most times though it goes fine. If people in the grp decide its worthwhile to go mad and be toxic, be my guest. If thats how they want to pass time in the game, have at it.
    We've had one depleted our NW19 despite our best efforts to provide kiting for him. He just refused to run... And kept dying because he was unhealable.
    Quote Originally Posted by Smoopie
    this change is to help players like you..... you know..night elf with tyrannical beheader...

    Azharok - Dalaran EU

  7. #727
    Quote Originally Posted by Kharnath View Post
    The microsecond I understood that it was all timed stuff, I bailed and resolved to never go again, that's not why I play this game and far be it from me to force my playstyle on 4 strangers.

    For me wow is about getting lost in the fantasy to, prolong it, to go deeeep, to learn about i dunno Furbolgs? Their society their leaders their plights etc and as a hero, help them.

    Not this Need4Speed timed stuff.

    Edit: Mother F'ing! MANKRIKS WIFE sorta stuff, that shit cut me deep!
    So what you are saying is you don't have the confidence to play the game if your performance directly effects the outcome for other people.

    I think single player, story driven games might be for you, champ.

    I am sure those games have their own forums you can write on.

  8. #728
    Quote Originally Posted by crusadernero View Post
    No idea how people experience this and actually clears the dungeon. I've experienced lots of situations like this and it always goes down the shitter. I see people with lots of m+ achivs and yet they do obvious mistakes over and over again. Its almost like they never really earned the score or achiv.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Do what I did; Stopped tanking & Healing, switched to dps. Preferrable a ranged dps. From there just install DBM and dont stand in shit. Prio mobs accordingly. If you do that, most of it is covered. And ofc, have your class ready for the key you are doing.

    Pay attention to your surroundings while clearing mobs/bosses. No ranged class has such complex rotation that you gotta pay THAT much attention to it.

    After a while you will have learned all there is to know about the dungeons. As your key gets higher, you will also learn from(Hopefully) good players how to take optimal routes, skips etc.

    For me, as someone who has tanked, healed & been melee dps for MANY years, switching it over to ranged DPS made the game a whole lot easier lol.
    I did better, I completely stopped M+ing. Tired to have to rely on others, tired to be blamed for my non healing by people standing on bad stuff all the time and not interrupting, tired of queues. Went back to D3 one year ago and never been happier.

  9. #729
    Quote Originally Posted by Algorath View Post
    I get that, but if you are a casual player who spends time with everything the game has to offer except raiding, m+ or PVP, surely there are better rewards for your time than end-game, high ilvl items? Mounts, titles, pets, keys for extra attempts at collectables you are farming, this kinda stuff.
    Again, this idea that power progression, in an rpg, is something that is really only for the hardcore players is frankly weird.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  10. #730
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    Again, this idea that power progression, in an rpg, is something that is really only for the hardcore players is frankly weird.
    But what would the "best in slot weapon" do for the crowd that doesn't want to step a foot into non queuable content ? That's what I don't understand. Getting better gear is nice, I get that, but at some point you're gear will be more than enough to do queued content because you and others adamantly refuse to do the non queued content. Or am I missing something ?
    Last edited by Azharok; 2022-05-06 at 11:45 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Smoopie
    this change is to help players like you..... you know..night elf with tyrannical beheader...

    Azharok - Dalaran EU

  11. #731
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    Again, this idea that power progression, in an rpg, is something that is really only for the hardcore players is frankly weird.
    It isn't just for the hardcore players though. It just stops earlier if you don't do the group content that is available. It is perfectly acceptable that progression stops when you don't do content.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  12. #732
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    Again, this idea that power progression, in an rpg, is something that is really only for the hardcore players is frankly weird.
    yeah, I don't get it either, every progression path should be able to hit max ilvl gear, who cares if it is via raiding/crafting/PVP/dailies(WQs)/5mans. harder content should just allow it to be done faster. A real badge system and further crafting revamp could really fix it easily imo.

    and before more people ask why does the WQ person need max ilvl? because it keeps them increasing the power of their character and engaged in the game. Oh and it has virtually zero negative impact on anyone else. Heck if anything it's net positive cause if they decide to try hard content their gear won't be lagging behind.
    Member: Dragon Flight Alpha Club, Member since 7/20/22

  13. #733
    Quote Originally Posted by Mendo Kusai View Post
    Also if a group wants to try a +50 with 5 tanks let them, it will be fun to watch and impressive if they succeed. There would be absolutly no reason other than fun to go beyond 15 in the new mode. The rankings and other rewards will only be in the current m+ mode.
    And this is the point where it becomes clear we're all discussing something totally untethered to reality. Some academic exercise. Nobody is going spend 5 hours in +50 so why is Blizzard even required to create a whole new mode for this nonsense?

    Why not put all that energy into say, ultra-hard world quests? Way more useful for solo-playing casuals.

  14. #734
    Quote Originally Posted by cuafpr View Post
    yeah, I don't get it either, every progression path should be able to hit max ilvl gear, who cares if it is via raiding/crafting/PVP/dailies(WQs)/5mans. harder content should just allow it to be done faster. A real badge system and further crafting revamp could really fix it easily imo.

    and before more people ask why does the WQ person need max ilvl? because it keeps them increasing the power of their character and engaged in the game. Oh and it has virtually zero negative impact on anyone else. Heck if anything it's net positive cause if they decide to try hard content their gear won't be lagging behind.
    But the gear isn't the thing that is required to do the hard content though ... Gear only carries you through so much "difficulty" before you need to actually play with both hands and the screen on. What good does funneling 270ilvl gear towards players with 0 M+/PVP rating or 0 boss XP do ? We'll have loads of people queueing up for content they can't really complete, and it'll be the same. ilvl over score in 2-9 brackets, and then it'll be score over ilvl. We could argue that once they get a foot in the door with massively inflated ilvl they might catch on on what needs to be done to get the key timed but I wouldn't bet my left nut on it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Smoopie
    this change is to help players like you..... you know..night elf with tyrannical beheader...

    Azharok - Dalaran EU

  15. #735
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    It isn't just for the hardcore players though. It just stops earlier if you don't do the group content that is available. It is perfectly acceptable that progression stops when you don't do content.
    Casuals do group content. They use queues.

    I don't care what is "acceptable" in your eyes. I care what is fun, and your argument is "It's fine if the fun stops". You don't have a coherent reason for this, just that you find it "acceptable". Why should the game be less fun?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Azharok View Post
    But what would the "best in slot weapon" do for the crowd that doesn't want to step a foot into non queuable content ? That's what I don't understand. Getting better gear is nice, I get that, but at some point you're gear will be more than enough to do queued content because you and others adamantly refuse to do the non queued content. Or am I missing something ?
    Because getting more powerful is fun.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  16. #736
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    Casuals do group content. They use queues.

    I don't care what is "acceptable" in your eyes. I care what is fun, and your argument is "It's fine if the fun stops". You don't have a coherent reason for this, just that you find it "acceptable". Why should the game be less fun?

    - - - Updated - - -



    Because getting more powerful is fun.
    Okay, what happens after you've got the best gear in game ?
    Quote Originally Posted by Smoopie
    this change is to help players like you..... you know..night elf with tyrannical beheader...

    Azharok - Dalaran EU

  17. #737
    Quote Originally Posted by Kharnath View Post
    The microsecond I understood that it was all timed stuff, I bailed and resolved to never go again, that's not why I play this game and far be it from me to force my playstyle on 4 strangers.

    For me wow is about getting lost in the fantasy to, prolong it, to go deeeep, to learn about i dunno Furbolgs? Their society their leaders their plights etc and as a hero, help them.

    Not this Need4Speed timed stuff.

    Edit: Mother F'ing! MANKRIKS WIFE sorta stuff, that shit cut me deep!
    so you want wow to turn into something it never was... story was never wows strong suite, it was mediocre at its best...
    maybe just call it a day and find a game you will like instead of whining about wow having content you dont like...

  18. #738
    Quote Originally Posted by Azharok View Post
    But the gear isn't the thing that is required to do the hard content though ... Gear only carries you through so much "difficulty" before you need to actually play with both hands and the screen on. What good does funneling 270ilvl gear towards players with 0 M+/PVP rating or 0 boss XP do ? We'll have loads of people queueing up for content they can't really complete, and it'll be the same. ilvl over score in 2-9 brackets, and then it'll be score over ilvl. We could argue that once they get a foot in the door with massively inflated ilvl they might catch on on what needs to be done to get the key timed but I wouldn't bet my left nut on it.
    so if gear isn't the thing required for hard content, why does it give out better gear? The point is player progression should not be tied to one form of content. raids can have max ilvl gear with perks tied to raid content, while say WQ gear is maxed ilvl with perks tied to non-instanced content etc...
    Member: Dragon Flight Alpha Club, Member since 7/20/22

  19. #739
    Quote Originally Posted by Azharok View Post
    Okay, what happens after you've got the best gear in game ?
    Ideally, you target that happening at a point when the game itself would start to be burning most people out. You want the end-state of the game (or patch/season in the case of a live service game) to be timed with when players would start getting that burn out. That way, they get the satisfaction of completion and feel invigorated to come back next patch.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  20. #740
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    Casuals do group content. They use queues. I don't care what is "acceptable" in your eyes. I care what is fun, and your argument is "It's fine if the fun stops". You don't have a coherent reason for this, just that you find it "acceptable". Why should the game be less fun?
    You do realize that the fun stops no matter what, right? Why does it matter if you hit it at X item level versus Y item level? If they only want to do content that lets them queue then they are artificially limiting themselves to content that tops out at X item level instead of Y item level. So why is it a problem that they are limited when it is by their own choice?

    They still get more powerful because the content they do will reward them with upgrades. It just stops when they stop doing the content in the game.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

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