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  1. #401
    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Atia View Post
    It's not raiding if you only kill the first free-loot boss. Also clearly "designing the game for 0,1 of the players" means Cutting Edge players. And honestly, I wouldn't even bother with raiding if I couldn't get Cutting Edge lol.
    More to the point, the players who are 1/N in mythic are likely not going to base their satisfaction with the game on the presence of mythic raids.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
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  2. #402
    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Atia View Post
    It's not raiding if you only kill the first free-loot boss. Also clearly "designing the game for 1% of the players" means Cutting Edge players. And honestly, I wouldn't even bother with raiding if I couldn't get Cutting Edge lol.

    Or in other words - if they would change the reward structure to match the upcoming fated raid+ season (normal gives a mount, heroic a title and mythic the portals) I wouldn't bother with mythic anymore, because I play for the mount, which is catering to the 1%.
    So all the guilds that are one boss short from CE aren't Mythic Raiders ? This isn't about how easy/hard the bosses are. If you kill bosses in normal mode, you raid normal (regardless of the amount), if you kill them on heroic : heroic raider, if you kill some on mythic you're a mythic raider. This is like saying "nuh huh you haven't timed a 20 because it was NW and NW20 is free".

    I don't bother raiding, at all, but if I were in a guild and we ONLY had the first 3 down, I would consider myself a mythic raider. It's still more than 95% (made up number) of what the playerbase is capable of.

    "I'm not gonna bother running because if I can't beat Usain Bolt there's no point". This is what your post sounds like.
    Quote Originally Posted by Smoopie
    this change is to help players like you..... you know..night elf with tyrannical beheader...

    Azharok - Dalaran EU

  3. #403
    I'd definitely argue they need more CHALLENGING content for Solo players - with unique cosmetic rewards - They've even brought the mage towers back because of how popular they are..

    But there's so much to do for casuals to progress as much as anyone really needs to progress and so many other activities and achievements available.

    Sure you can't get the highest ilvls in the latest patch, but there's no real need for that if you're not even planning on doing any of that content. That's why i feel more transmog for solo difficult challenges would be a good approach.

    I actually think there's a large amount of players who don't really want to do anything challenging, and even wouldn't do things like the mage tower - I don't get why or how they feel they should be "progressing" - Even for that market then things like the Cypher gear should be enough surely?
    Last edited by rogueMatthias; 2022-05-06 at 11:55 AM.
    BASIC CAMPFIRE for WARCHIEF UK Prime Minister!

  4. #404
    The Lightbringer Lady Atia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azharok View Post
    So all the guilds that are one boss short from CE aren't Mythic Raiders ? This isn't about how easy/hard the bosses are. If you kill bosses in normal mode, you raid normal (regardless of the amount), if you kill them on heroic : heroic raider, if you kill some on mythic you're a mythic raider. This is like saying "nuh huh you haven't timed a 20 because it was NW and NW20 is free".

    I don't bother raiding, at all, but if I were in a guild and we ONLY had the first 3 down, I would consider myself a mythic raider. It's still more than 95% (made up number) of what the playerbase is capable of.

    "I'm not gonna bother running because if I can't beat Usain Bolt there's no point". This is what your post sounds like.
    No, killing multiple bosses is raiding because people progress on the raid. Killing one boss because he is a freeloot "encounter" isn't raiding my dude. Raiding means progressing. And there are normal raiders, heroic raiders, curve raiders, mythic raiders and cutting edge raiders. Oh, and I guess lfr raiders kekW.

    And yes, if all you do is clearing heroic and killing the first boss on mythic without trying any other mythic bosses, you are still a curve/heroic raider.
    Last edited by Lady Atia; 2022-05-06 at 12:18 PM.

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  5. #405
    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Atia View Post
    No, killing multiple bosses is raiding because people progress on the raid. Killing one boss because he is a freeloot "encounter" isn't raiding my dude. Raiding means progressing. And there are normal raiders, heroic raiders, curve raiders, mythic raiders and cutting edge raiders. Oh, and I guess lfr raiders kekW.

    And yes, if all you do is clearing heroic and killing the first boss on mythic without trying any other mythic bosses, you are still a curve/heroic raider.
    Maybe we're progressing on the second boss, and only managed to kill the first one so far.
    Quote Originally Posted by Smoopie
    this change is to help players like you..... you know..night elf with tyrannical beheader...

    Azharok - Dalaran EU

  6. #406
    The Lightbringer Lady Atia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azharok View Post
    Maybe we're progressing on the second boss, and only managed to kill the first one so far.
    And as soon as you kill a 2nd one I will consider you a mythic raider, little kōhai.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    More to the point, the players who are 1/N in mythic are likely not going to base their satisfaction with the game on the presence of mythic raids.
    This. If they aren't even bothering to progress on other bosses they don't need a mythic difficulty to begin with.

    #TEAMGIRAFFE

  7. #407
    Quote Originally Posted by conkrete View Post
    Really? Which interview?
    Asmon one in the beginning he acknowledges that they underserved the quiet majority of players who don't push keys or mythic raid.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    It's inescapable that most people who have played WoW don't want challenging content. Completion stats show this, and GC himself has repeatedly said they don't like it.

    "the people who want challenging content, which historically has never been a huge percentage of our players."

    "there definitely was not as large an audience for challenging dungeons as we hoped."

    "We offer hardcore raiding b/c it's fun not because it's popular."

    "But there is not a great business model for a hardcore-only MMO with WoW production values."

    It will be interesting to see what GC's LoL MMO looks like. He has said this about it:

    "I think it's safe to say that we are not aiming for a niche product. Some games do great with 500,000 very loyal players who love the game. That's awesome but that's not what we're going for"

    If WoW declines below 500K active subs by the time that MMO comes out -- and it (at least Retail) may already be at that level! -- the WoW experience is going to even more seriously affect what they do. GC has enough self awareness to know he's personally hardcore; I don't know what direction that will push him in, though.

    "On reflection, it's possible I was always too hardcore for the vision of WoW."
    I'm going to reemphasize this post. Your post shows literally a former big name in the WoW Dev team openly saying and disproving that harder content is not what players want.

    In my view the only MMO Devs right now worth salt who seem to have a vision for the future of their games are coming from ESO, GW2, and FF14. SWTOR and WoW seem to be very very confused and lost when it comes to everything.

  8. #408
    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Atia View Post
    And as soon as you kill a 2nd one I will consider you a mythic raider, little kōhai.

    - - - Updated - - -



    This. If they aren't even bothering to progress on other bosses they don't need a mythic difficulty to begin with.
    That's why I said "only 3 bosses down" in my first post you quoted
    Quote Originally Posted by Smoopie
    this change is to help players like you..... you know..night elf with tyrannical beheader...

    Azharok - Dalaran EU

  9. #409
    The Lightbringer Battlebeard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Akka View Post
    Are you doing LFR with the same people who are doing Illidan ?
    Or are you doing LFR with a bunch of unknow people without coordination and running all over the place like headless chickens ?
    Because that could certainly explain the difference. I highly doubt that the average LFR clueless group wouldn't wipe on the Shard of Azeroth ten times in a row.
    People in LFR are surpisingly good. But I'm talking about the mechanics etc of the bosses. The bosses have FAR more health %-wise in LFR, and hurt more and have FAR more oneshot mechanics than anything in TBC.

  10. #410
    They did stop this, ages ago, when they added casual LFG functions and additional difficulties that were even easier than before, when they dumbed the talent system to oblivion and removed almost all forms of gear management and enhancement.

    But sure, "top .001%" is all that gets attention. Live in that delusional bubble.

  11. #411
    The Lightbringer Sanguinerd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Stormbringer View Post
    They should just remove all combat add-ons, then we'll no longer have an arms race between WoW devs and Add-on devs. Raiders won't have ten add-ons telling them exactly where to stand and when anymore, or to prep for interrupt, adds, etcetera, and will have to actually learn fights and pay attention to markers and raid leader calls. Then it no longer has to be stupidly difficult to pose even the slightest challenge.
    Agreed. The influence of addons is far too great.
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  12. #412
    The major thing is that the very top and very bottom of the players are the ones that's currently in game still playing for the most part. The ones who still very much like the gameplay core and regulry return or stay, and the ones who really don't know any better.

    What kind of feedback do you think people like this would give? Also it makes for skewed metrics because while it appears a bigger % of players are maybe successful at true endgame, in fact it's just that the middle ground part went lost in time.

    If someone still plays the game and keeps raiding/running m+/pvp, while he may complain in forums he's still playing so from a marketing/revenue standpoint the game has done the right thing.

    Everything seems to be actually changing now because the hit in playerbase has been basically the biggest in the story of the game, plus all the external stuff. Suddendly people had options to play and wow wasn't the only game worth their time etc.
    Non ti fidar di me se il cuor ti manca.

  13. #413
    Quote Originally Posted by Battlebeard View Post
    People in LFR are surpisingly good. But I'm talking about the mechanics etc of the bosses. The bosses have FAR more health %-wise in LFR, and hurt more and have FAR more oneshot mechanics than anything in TBC.
    I take from the fact you haven't answered that you were playing with complete strangers, so the lack of coordination could very well be the actual explanation.
    You might also be right, it's been a very long time I haven't played any LFR, but let me say I've my big doubts.

  14. #414
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldkil View Post
    The major thing is that the very top and very bottom of the players are the ones that's currently in game still playing for the most part. The ones who still very much like the gameplay core and regulry return or stay, and the ones who really don't know any better.

    What kind of feedback do you think people like this would give? Also it makes for skewed metrics because while it appears a bigger % of players are maybe successful at true endgame, in fact it's just that the middle ground part went lost in time.

    If someone still plays the game and keeps raiding/running m+/pvp, while he may complain in forums he's still playing so from a marketing/revenue standpoint the game has done the right thing.

    Everything seems to be actually changing now because the hit in playerbase has been basically the biggest in the story of the game, plus all the external stuff. Suddendly people had options to play and wow wasn't the only game worth their time etc.
    Gamers have so many great games to choose from nowadays that the majority will always play every and any game extremely cyclical, they'll be there when fun content dropped and be gone in a few weeks, that's the "80%", under no circumstances and with no dev. team in the world will we ever see tbc/wotlk levels of retention (and even back then we don't know for sure since retention rates never got released...)

    So in a way Shadowlands biggest failing wasn't the dreaded "systems" or ridiculous statements like the thread title, I'm pretty sure it was simply the patch cadence.

    Legion was a lot worse system wise in many regards, but why would a casual care about that when by definition they don't interact or try to understand those systems in the first place? It's like the conduit energy uproar, this sucked for only a extremely small amount of players.

    What Legion got right though was the insane patch cadence, you don't think too much about bad system design when there's constantly fun shit to do.

  15. #415
    Quote Originally Posted by VMSmith View Post
    I recommend taking a look into a mirror, because the only person trying to redefine "difficult" to suit their purposes is yourself. That's why you're trying to redirect here rather than actually address the fact that your idea that Animal Crossing is difficult is balls and that everyone desires challenge and difficulty or they don't have fun.

    But go ahead, take a stab at describing exactly what is "difficult" in Animal Crossing. You said rare fish and catching bugs, I explained how neither of them is difficult in any way. I told my wife about this conversation and her first thought was "You push the button to swing the net, you catch the bug. What's difficult?"

    This is the same game you play with the word "casual". You define things in a way that only you believe and that has nothing to do with reality, and then claim those things support your positions.

    I'll go ahead and "take the win" though and be done with you. You have nothing of value to say and when backed into a corner try to huff and puff like you are here, all because you honestly know your position is bollocks.

    I'm still laughing at the idea that Animal Crossing is difficult
    Except he wasn't trying to redefine difficult nor was he saying Animal Crossing was difficult. You're putting words in his mouth.

    What he said, was that the game had a difficulty curve. And if any part of the game is tougher than another part, he's correct.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Caprias View Post
    Gamers have so many great games to choose from nowadays that the majority will always play every and any game extremely cyclical, they'll be there when fun content dropped and be gone in a few weeks, that's the "80%", under no circumstances and with no dev. team in the world will we ever see tbc/wotlk levels of retention (and even back then we don't know for sure since retention rates never got released...)

    So in a way Shadowlands biggest failing wasn't the dreaded "systems" or ridiculous statements like the thread title, I'm pretty sure it was simply the patch cadence.

    Legion was a lot worse system wise in many regards, but why would a casual care about that when by definition they don't interact or try to understand those systems in the first place? It's like the conduit energy uproar, this sucked for only a extremely small amount of players.

    What Legion got right though was the insane patch cadence, you don't think too much about bad system design when there's constantly fun shit to do.
    This first paragraph needs to much more emphasis. People like to compare now and then, sub numbers, and such, etc. And it's only part of the picture. If both Wrath and Shadowlands had 200,000 quit in the last quarter, but 250,000 new people tried Wrath but only 50k new people tried Shadowlands of course it's going to look like Shadowlands was worse, even though they both lost just as many people.
    The most difficult thing to do is accept that there is nothing wrong with things you don't like and accept that people can like things you don't.

  16. #416
    Quote Originally Posted by Flatspriest View Post
    You must not have played the game during the original Classic era. You would have to sit and eat after every single mob. You would get attacked by anything and everything that was hostile towards you from a great distance. It was very much harder then. They have made this game so much easier over the years due to a majority of the player base being casuals rather than hard-core raiders.
    they made leveling easier,but the thing is,i always find it funny when people call vanila wow hard,when in fact at the time it was ridiculed as the casual care bear mmo,having zero of the ''hardcore'' features most of the popular mmo's at the time had like xp loss on death,pvp body looting,before wow i played kalonline,you couldnt level in many outdoor areas without help,a death at a high level could set u back weeks,2 quests per lvl,you didnt have upgrades constantly showering you etc

  17. #417
    Its funny people are mentioning the hardcore and ultra casual being the audience for WoW now. I find that to be very true.

    As crazy as it sounds I have started playing everquest again as I find it's a better experience than WoW for a gamer like me (somewhere in between hardcore and casual). This is insane and not something I could ever imagine 10 years ago.

  18. #418
    WOW Token killed the quality of community in this game.

  19. #419
    The Lightbringer Battlebeard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Akka View Post
    I take from the fact you haven't answered that you were playing with complete strangers, so the lack of coordination could very well be the actual explanation.
    You might also be right, it's been a very long time I haven't played any LFR, but let me say I've my big doubts.
    If you put strangers in BT, they might also struggle. But if you put pugs who easily clear Illidan in current LFR, I'm sure they struggle even more. LFR idiots are still kinda better than casual dad gamers in many cases.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by jackoff View Post
    WOW Token killed the quality of community in this game.
    If the content wasn't so hard, the WoW token wouldn't be needed, as more people could achieve success without paying. And if they ban the token, people just find other ways to pay for boost anyway.

  20. #420
    Quote Originally Posted by jackoff View Post
    WOW Token killed the quality of community in this game.
    Sorta... it did make the boosting side of things explode and solidified a caste system. Breaking intobeig able to pug 15s or mythic raiding is far harder then becoming a heroic raider in mop or cata.

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