10.0 should remove the timer from Mythic+ dungeons...

[mmocfd1b0ab5a3]

How about remove timer from Mythic+ dungeons, but make Mythic++ that still has the timer but better rewards than mythic+?

[rhorle]

so if gear isn't the thing required for hard content, why does it give out better gear? The point is player progression should not be tied to one form of content. raids can have max ilvl gear with perks tied to raid content, while say WQ gear is maxed ilvl with perks tied to non-instanced content etc...

The gear you get as a reward is designed to make that content easier but not nessacarily required. Things like Mythic Raids obviously changes that since the later bosses lately have expected a week or two of gearing up. Player progression is not tied to one form of content. The walls you hit though are dependent on what content you choose to do.

[NineSpine]

You do realize that the fun stops no matter what, right? Why does it matter if you hit it at X item level versus Y item level? If they only want to do content that lets them queue then they are artificially limiting themselves to content that tops out at X item level instead of Y item level. So why is it a problem that they are limited when it is by their own choice?

They still get more powerful because the content they do will reward them with upgrades. It just stops when they stop doing the content in the game.

It really doesn't though. ZM is a step in the right direction, but before that you ran out of things to do that provided power rewards extremely quickly if you played casually. The harder the content you do, the longer it takes to get the BiS for that content. This is absolutely ass backwards. The casual content should be the long path and the hardest content should be the short path. Instead, we have a situation where casuals run out of content absurdly quickly and hardcore players are put on a near-endless treadmill.

[rhorle]

Ideally, you target that happening at a point when the game itself would start to be burning most people out. You want the end-state of the game (or patch/season in the case of a live service game) to be timed with when players would start getting that burn out. That way, they get the satisfaction of completion and feel invigorated to come back next patch.

You can't time burnout when people choose to ignore content though. Because they will hit that point before people that choose to raid and do M+ will. Completion is always what you set for your personal goal. If your personal goal is to get the highest item level possible in a tier/season but you also refuse to do non-queued content then that is something that a game shouldn't cater to. People just need realistic goals when deciding not to engage in content.

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It really doesn't though.

So item level keeps on increasing? Exactly. What you call the right direction has nothing to do with item level or rewards because its content isn't based around gear but farming for pets and mounts. Casuals only run out of content absurdly quick because they are choosing to ignore the content of the game. Strange, right?

[Mendo Kusai]

The gear is just too big of an incentive for people to ignore.
How about we make 2 modes that gives same gear but the timed version also gives rankings, extra rewards and braggin rights?
Would that not satisfy you?

[NineSpine]

You can't time burnout when people choose to ignore content though. Because they will hit that point before people that choose to raid and do M+ will. Completion is always what you set for your personal goal. If your personal goal is to get the highest item level possible in a tier/season but you also refuse to do non-queued content then that is something that a game shouldn't cater to. People just need realistic goals when deciding not to engage in content.

Timing things like that is literally the core of game design. Again, read your argument back. Your argument is that the game should not be fun for a subset of people but you aren't giving a reason for that. You are just declaring that it shouldn't be fun for them... because reasons.

So item level keeps on increasing? Exactly. What you call the right direction has nothing to do with item level or rewards because its content isn't based around gear but farming for pets and mounts. Casuals only run out of content absurdly quick because they are choosing to ignore the content of the game. Strange, right?

The item level doesn't keep increasing. Putting the current patch aside, do you know how absurdly fast you max yourself out power-wise if you just do casual content?

Casuals run out of content because they don't want to do things they don't find fun. They don't like M+, raiding, or rated pvp are fun. If they did, they would do them.

Your argument is as silly as putting the highest ilvl behind pet battles and then when players complained you say "Well they are CHOOSING to ignore the best path for upgrades!"

[rhorle]

Timing things like that is literally the core of game design. Again, read your argument back. Your argument is that the game should not be fun for a subset of people but you aren't giving a reason for that. You are just declaring that it shouldn't be fun for them... because reasons.

No. I am saying you can't design things for a subset of people that choose not to do things then complain there is nothing to do. They are choosing to limit their fun by choosing not to do activities in the game. They can choose to keep progressing their character by doing the content that exist in the game. They choose not to.

The item level doesn't keep increasing. Putting the current patch aside, do you know how absurdly fast you max yourself out power-wise if you just do casual content?

Sure. It happens quick. But so does any form of content except for Mythic Raiding since this latest tier is hard. In the time it takes a casual player to get 6/6 cypher research a normal mode player could be at their max item level. Same for a M+ player. Most likely for a Heroic mode raider. If you actively choose to not do content that is available in the game then you also shouldn't complain when you don't get rewards anymore, right?

[cuafpr]

The gear you get as a reward is designed to make that content easier but not nessacarily required. Things like Mythic Raids obviously changes that since the later bosses lately have expected a week or two of gearing up. Player progression is not tied to one form of content. The walls you hit though are dependent on what content you choose to do.

like timers though (I'm even against enrage timers being just a set time then BAM boss hit harder) that wall should not be there. Its a design shift for the game but one I think would help the greater population especially those that don't hang around game forums lol. The only wall should be the max ilvl during that content patch regardless of how you play.

[Azharok]

so if gear isn't the thing required for hard content, why does it give out better gear? The point is player progression should not be tied to one form of content. raids can have max ilvl gear with perks tied to raid content, while say WQ gear is maxed ilvl with perks tied to non-instanced content etc...

It makes the content easier. That's why people were timing 20s on the first/second week of this season in 250ilvl, when most players can't time a 15 at 270+. I'm not implying that "gear doesn't matter at all", it helps with tighter enrage timers, dps checks, hps checks, increased mob hp etc. The gear treadmill also stops at 278ilvl if you run M+ and 285 if you can clear the last 3 in Mythic mode. For 90% of the content you'll be fine with 265ilvl which isn't that big of a deal to get considering you'll have two 291 legendaries (which don't provide any benefit outside of extra stats than the 190 versions), ZM gives you 250ilvl, and you can upgrade your M0 loot up to 272 via valour.

What people like me mean when we say "gear doesn't matter" is this : if you had BiS gear and I didn't, I could still outdps/outheal you. Being 285ilvl won't save you from Deva's aoe bomb in SoA. It won't save you from depleting your 10s.

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Timing things like that is literally the core of game design. Again, read your argument back. Your argument is that the game should not be fun for a subset of people but you aren't giving a reason for that. You are just declaring that it shouldn't be fun for them... because reasons.



The item level doesn't keep increasing. Putting the current patch aside, do you know how absurdly fast you max yourself out power-wise if you just do casual content?

Casuals run out of content because they don't want to do things they don't find fun. They don't like M+, raiding, or rated pvp are fun. If they did, they would do them.

Your argument is as silly as putting the highest ilvl behind pet battles and then when players complained you say "Well they are CHOOSING to ignore the best path for upgrades!"

Do you know how fast you max out power wise while running 15s ?

[NineSpine]

No. I am saying you can't design things for a subset of people that choose not to do things then complain there is nothing to do. They are choosing to limit their fun by choosing not to do activities in the game. They can choose to keep progressing their character by doing the content that exist in the game. They choose not to.

If Blizzard puts all item progression behind pet battles and minigames, would you say that everyone who complained is wrong because they "choose to limit their fun by choosing not to do activities in the game"? No, you wouldn't. So, please, let's move on to a more coherent argument. Demanding people do content that they don't think is fun does not make the game more fun. I am trying to argue for a more fun game, and you are trying to justify the game being less fun.

Sure. It happens quick. But so does any form of content except for Mythic Raiding since this latest tier is hard. In the time it takes a casual player to get 6/6 cypher research a normal mode player could be at their max item level. Same for a M+ player. Most likely for a Heroic mode raider. If you actively choose to not do content that is available in the game then you also shouldn't complain when you don't get rewards anymore, right?

If the game puts all of the rewards behind content that most players do not think is fun, then that is a problem for the game.

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Do you know how fast you max out power wise while running 15s ?

Considering that you only max out via the great vault, the time it would take could be measured in months to years depending on luck.

[rhorle]

If Blizzard puts all item progression behind pet battles and minigames

That is a strawman. No content in wow is put behind just one thing. You have multiple tiers however. World, Dungeon, Raid, and PvP. You can get power from all of those modes but they all have different end points before you have to move to the next one in order to keep progressing. There is no where near putting everything behind pet battles and minigames. You say you want a more coherent argument yet fail to actually use logic to refute a coherent argument.

If the game puts all of the rewards behind content that most players do not think is fun, then that is a problem for the game.

If people are playing a game where they don't enjoy most content then that is the wrong game for them. It is like playing soccer but getting upset you can't throw the ball like in football. You don't change soccer to be more like football do you?

[Rinnegan2]

Let me know in the replies.

pretty sure non-timed 5 man raid-type content (similar to what you are suggesting) will come in 11.0 or 12.0

[Alroxas]

We could have 2 modes for m+, one with time pressure the other without it.
(Details are sorted out at the end)

No this is a horrible idea. The short version is that IF a non-timer M+ version exists AND rewards loot then you get into this mind-game of which path (timed vs non-timed) is the shortest path to get X loot.

Nothing will change for those who like it the way it currently is.

Lets be real here, the gear is just too big of an incentive for people to just ignore.

Basically these two statements cancel each other out. A non-timer based M+ (if it rewards loot) will change how players engage with both systems. Because loot is at the end of both timer and no timer, it will factor into the calculus. Does a player spend the time necessary to build up a score to do timed M+ or ignore score and find someone with a high enough non-timed M+ key to run? Even if the non-timed M+ takes 4x as long to run, that may be a shorter time spent (overall) in M+ grinding.

This is a great misconception that many have, the difficulty is not the problem, yes most people can do 15 with enough perseverance, the problem is how dreadful it has become to just engage with the system.

You see the contradiction here in this statement? Part of the difficulty is the timer. Sure players can clear very high keys if you allowed them to have all CDs up for every single pull but that makes for an incredibly long dungeon as you're spending most of the time waiting for cooldowns to be ready again.

A lot of us really enjoy m+, but once you reach a certain point, engaging in it simply becomes too painful so we are driven away.

Is it being driven away or asking you (as the player) to step up your efforts and you refuse to do so? Take healing in M+: generally speaking in lower keys, healer DPS is a non-factor but as you climb up to higher keys, healer DPS does become an important factor for clearing in time. For some healers, that means moving outside of their comfort zones of just healing to be able to fit a DPS rotation in when unavoidable damage is lower.

For some healers, they can't or don't want to engage in that gameplay. Which is fine but that does mean it limits what that healer can do (and likely how far that healer can go in higher keys).

People feel forced to do it, thats just the way it is, so why not make it more fun for them. Especialy if there is a solution that does not affect the current system.

What's fun for one player may not be fun for another. And the larger issue is that your system of non-timed M+ in addition to timed M+ would affect players.

5-Without timer it instantly becomes lfr so you dont deserve gear.
Yes some situations will be easier, you dont have to pull 4 packs with bloodlust and all cds in the beginning anymore, but I don't think there is must difference between a +15 boss with timer vs +15 boss without timer, assuming in both case you start with all your cds which is often the case with current system.

Never make assumptions. Also that's false, because of the timer (or at least in trying to make the timer), groups will engage with bosses without all CDs up because they need to. Bloodlust is the easiest example because it has a 10min debuff so you can't use it on every boss encounter. So Bloodlust becomes a tactical resource to use. Does a group use bloodlust sooner in a dungeon so that it can be up again for another use or do they delay using it so that it can be used on a difficult area and/or boss encounter. But even if we move to a 1min CD or 3min CD, the effect is still the same. Do players commit the cooldown now or later? Would full value of the CD be realized or would it be wasted? Xav in ToP is a good example as he regularly sends players down to fight in the arena but in high keys (esp. on Tyrannical weeks), you need the extra DPS for the banners.

Without timer the "success rate" would drasticly go up but it would not suddenly turn into free loot.

But it would be easier to acquire that "loot" because of the higher success rate. Which then leads back my earlier point of how non-timer M+ would affect players who don't want to engage in that system. It [non-timer based M+] can't be ignored because like you said the gearing is too valuable.

I guaranty it will bring the m+ engagement and enjoyment metric up by a lot.

That's a bit misleading. First you're lumping both sets of M+ types together while ignoring that the new addition of M+ (aka non-timer M+) would cannibalize some of the engagement of the former (timer based M+).

And enjoyment numbers wouldn't necessarily go up. In fact, it might go down as players claim that non-timer based M+ don't "respect the players time" as they have to spend HOURS in dungeons because those groups want to wait for more CDs to be up instead of the timer based M+ of "go go go".

Yes I realize that's an extreme case of players wanting to "eat their cake and have it too" but that segment of players do exist.

The new mode will have no rewards beyond 15, and I dont think +15 and below will require such shinanigans.

On keys over 15, +40% chance for an extra item per key level (can go past 100%, so a 20 will always drop 4 items) so in the meta game of trying to maximize loot per run, you would want to run high keys for the guaranteed number of dropped items increases. And since there's no timer as a factor, then players will want to run those high keys because even if it takes 4x or 10x as long, you're guaranteed loot.

Systems have a great influence on a players toxicity level, thats also why I blame the system and not the players for this.
Change the system and the toxicity level will change with it. There will still be some toxicity of course, but I it will be a lot more managable.
Just the fact that now players will mostly play with other players that have a similar mindset will help a lot.

Pretty sure it's a player thing. Specifically it's the anonymity of group finder that allows the toxicity. The probability of running into the same player is so low that you can get away with toxic behavior. This is one of the reasons why M+ among friends/guildmates has low toxicity. You play with those people all the time so you behave yourself. But that random PuG whom you'll (likely) never see again? Sure you can treat them poorly because you won't see them again.

We could also introduce a queuing system with this, but thats for another discussion I think.

Another bad idea... queuing systems (at least for WoW) are not smart. They just look for bodies to put together: 1 tank (of any kind), 1 healer (of any kind) and 3 DPS (of any kind). Oh look it's storming/quaking week maybe we should have a mixed group of ranged and melee DPS: Nope the queuing system just pulls in the first 3 DPS it can find... so what if they are all melee, the system doesn't care.

Oh look it's this dungeon which needs frequent hard interrupts, nope the system says the next 3 DPS in queue are balance druids so in they go for this party. And so forth... queue systems are not good in WoW.

And making smarter queue systems can lead to excessively long queue times as the system tries to match up a "good" comp.

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Because getting more powerful is fun.

So then Blizzard should put in a vendor that gives players BiS Mythic gear on day 1 of the xpac? So you can be powerful and have "fun" that is short-lived because there is ZERO progression because you got all the gear on the first day?

[NineSpine]

That is a strawman. No content in wow is put behind just one thing. You have multiple tiers however. World, Dungeon, Raid, and PvP. You can get power from all of those modes but they all have different end points before you have to move to the next one in order to keep progressing. There is no where near putting everything behind pet battles and minigames. You say you want a more coherent argument yet fail to actually use logic to refute a coherent argument.

If people are playing a game where they don't enjoy most content then that is the wrong game for them. It is like playing soccer but getting upset you can't throw the ball like in football. You don't change soccer to be more like football do you?

That's not what a straw man is. There is a reason you keep deflecting from the argument just to re-declare victory.

Ok, let's say Blizzard decided that the best gear would come from world quests, pet battles, and timewalking dungeons and not from raids, M+, or rated pvp. People complain. Would it be reasonable to respond to them "Well if you want the best gear, you need to engage with all of the content! You are the ones who don't want to progress! It's your fault if you don't like pet battles!"

We both know it would be asinine to respond like that, because you intrinsically understand that locking progression away in content YOU don't want to do is bad. Now, simply apply that logic to eeeeeeveryone else. Why should everyone else have to do content they don't think is fun? Would it be fun to force mythic raiders to pvp to progress? Would it be fun to make pet battles raid to progress their pets? The problem is that you only want to apply the logic to your own preferences, which is called being a hypocrite.

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So then Blizzard should put in a vendor that gives players BiS Mythic gear on day 1 of the xpac? So you can be powerful and have "fun" that is short-lived because there is ZERO progression because you got all the gear on the first day?

You actually need me to specify that I mean that it is fun to get gear from doing the content you enjoy? You actually needed that elaboration in order for it to make sense to you?

Or were you wasting my time and your time being an obnoxious pedant?

[Azharok]

Considering that you only max out via the great vault, the time it would take could be measured in months to years depending on luck.

I was gonna say pretty fast actually, because you'll never get true BiS from vault within a season, so you're better off relying on valour and a few lucky drops from the vault. The gain from 272 to 278 is so small it's not worth chasing.

Just checked the top io player who plays the same spec I do, his simmed dps is 5% higher than mine. He's timing keys 8 to 9 levels higher than me. Those 5% aren't responsible for that difference, he's just a better at the game/his spec than me, the people he plays with are more skilled than I am/will be. I'd consider my ilvl pretty close to max, only upgrades I'll get is from the "vault of dissapointment". I've stopped chasing gear. I'm not playing for the loot.

[NineSpine]

I was gonna say pretty fast actually, because you'll never get true BiS from vault within a season, so you're better off relying on valour and a few lucky drops from the vault. The gain from 272 to 278 is so small it's not worth chasing.

Just checked the top io player who plays the same spec I do, his simmed dps is 5% higher than mine. He's timing keys 8 to 9 levels higher than me. Those 5% aren't responsible for that difference, he's just a better at the game/his spec than me, the people he plays with are more skilled than I am/will be. I'd consider my ilvl pretty close to max, only upgrades I'll get is from the "vault of dissapointment". I've stopped chasing gear. I'm not playing for the loot.

Its 100% cool to not care about gear. What's weird is when people care about gear but insist other people shouldn't.

[rhorle]

Ok, let's say Blizzard decided that the best gear would come from world quests, pet battles, and timewalking dungeons and not from raids, M+, or rated pvp. People complain. Would it be reasonable to respond to them "Well if you want the best gear, you need to engage with all of the content! You are the ones who don't want to progress! It's your fault if you don't like pet battles!"

Yes. It is reasonable to tell a person to play content if they want rewards from that content. I'm not sure why you don't understand that concept. I don't Mythic raid yet I have no problem with gear being locked behind it. I'm not applying my logic to my own preferences. This is yet again you projecting and creating a strawman.

No one is currently forced to do anything in the game in order to progress the item level of their gear. They are only forced to do things if they want to progress beyond a certain point. Which is completely reasonable. If you want to progress to X you have to do Y to get there. If you don't want to do Y then you can't progress beyond X. That is a choice every player can make.

[NineSpine]

Yes. It is reasonable to tell a person to play content if they want rewards from that content. I'm not sure why you don't understand that concept. I don't Mythic raid yet I have no problem with gear being locked behind it. I'm not applying my logic to my own preferences. This is yet again you projecting and creating a strawman.

No one is currently forced to do anything in the game in order to progress the item level of their gear. They are only forced to do things if they want to progress beyond a certain point. Which is completely reasonable. If you want to progress to X you have to do Y to get there. If you don't want to do Y then you can't progress beyond X. That is a choice every player can make.

If you actually think it would be reasonable to take gear progression out of raids and put it in pet battles instead, I think I've made you say something so profoundly silly that it's pretty much over here.

[rhorle]

If you actually think it would be reasonable to take gear progression out of raids and put it in pet battles instead, I think I've made you say something so profoundly silly that it's pretty much over here.

Again you are creating a strawman. You created the silly examples just so you could get yourself some kind of win. It is not reasonable to put gear only in pet battles or to have it reward gear. Because gear isn't required to get pets (outside of the few raid captures and drops). It is reasonable to expect people to do content if they want the rewards from that content. If you want a pet battle reward you should have to do pet battles instead of doing raids.

Right? You keep ignoring how gear progression is possible currently with multiple paths. If you want the highest possible gear though you are required to do the content that offers it. Which is reasonable. A player can choose where progression ends based on the content they want to do. There is nothing wrong or unreasonable about that.

[Azharok]

Its 100% cool to not care about gear. What's weird is when people care about gear but insist other people shouldn't.

I'm not insisting others shouldn't, I'm merely asking what purpose is their to have BiS gear to run WQs, LFR and Heroic dungeons. You want better gear ? Fine that's cool, you live for the ilvl, cool ! You'll be able to solo all the heroic dungeons you want if you want to. But you're gonna have to work for it in raids and M+. BTW Arena is queueable and awards decent gear too, is that casual content ?