I guess we can all agree now that the Titans are much stronger than the Eternal Ones?

[darkoms]

I mean, there was a long debate about this, but now, seeing how easily we defeated Denathrius, and then Zovaal himself, does anyone still think they are equal to the Titans?

[Skirdus]

>"Jailer is a Titan++ level threat"
>We defeated Denathrius and the Jailer without any help from the other Eternal Ones
>It took the combined force of the entire titan Pantheon to help us defeat a single nascent, unfinished titan

Yeah I don't think it was ever in question honestly

[TickTickTick]

TBH:

Legion
- we defeated corrupted Aggrammar with the only form of "empowerment" being our artifact weapons; while Aggrammar being corrupted certainly increased his powers, it wasn't by that much
- we defeated corrupted Argus using our artifact weapons and being empowered by the Titans; Argus was being empowered by the Death magic for millenias, so he was clearly a lot more powerful than Aggrammar, which was balanced by the Pantheon empowering us

Shadowlands
- we defeated Sire Denathrius with the only form of "empowerment" being granted the powers of the covenant of our choice. Considering Denathrius already gave the Jailer his sigil, and the Crown of Harvesters was restored (which also weakened Denathrius), it was pretty much balanced
- we kept up with the Jailer to a certain point, while being empowered by our covenant and by the Crown of Wills which greatly reduced the effect that domination magic has on us... but then the Jailer still overpowered us and we would have been defeated if it wasn't for Azeroth herself pushing back and granting us her boon. It's pretty much established by now that Azeroth is like one of the most powerful beings in the universe (they'll probably retcon her to be some kind of a final First One), I'd say it was actually pretty unbalanced and unfair towards the Jailer lmao.

>We defeated Denathrius and the Jailer without any help from the other Eternal Ones

What do you mean without any help? In Castle Nathria, we were empowered by the covenants - how is it any different than the Titans empowering us while still sitting and doing nothing other than that? You don't need to be in close proximity to be empowered by powerful beings.

>It took the combined force of the entire titan Pantheon to help us defeat a single nascent, unfinished titan

A titan that was being empowered by both Death and Fel magic for millenias, while being a being of Order himself. I'd say at that point he was pretty goddamned powerful, more than initially designed by the First Ones (if they created the Titans) and needing the whole Pantheon of Order to fight back a being infused with THREE Cosmic forces is not that far fetched.

[Mic_128]

>"Jailer is a Titan++ level threat"

In a way, he was. Had he succeeded, he would have rewritten the very fundamental nature of reality, enslaving each 6 elements of the cosmos. That is still 'more' of a threat than Sargeras and the Legion.

It was just unfortunate for the Jailer that he wasn't as physically threatening as a Titan.

[olddog]

N'Zoth could also be a Titan++ threat. If N'Zoth succeeds in corrupting Azeroth, the entire universe will be engulfed in a void, and neither Sargeras nor Pantheon will be able to stop it.

[bloodmoth13]

N'Zoth could also be a Titan++ threat. If N'Zoth succeeds in corrupting Azeroth, the entire universe will be engulfed in a void, and neither Sargeras nor Pantheon will be able to stop it.

Yeah this is getting stupid though, thats not their innate power both were trying to use azeroths power.

jailer wasnt going to rewrite reality on his own, and N'Zoth wasnt going to engulf the universe in void. Both need azeroths world soul.

As for actual power, jailor seemed like a bit of a bitch, definitely didnt feel like titan++, or even sub titan. the gods of death in wow lore felt a lot more like those guardians in the titan facilities.

[aceperson]

I mean, there was a long debate about this, but now, seeing how easily we defeated Denathrius, and then Zovaal himself, does anyone still think they are equal to the Titans?

eternal ones? i have no clue what you are talking about... is this a leak of some future expansion?

*cough* take the hint to ignore that crapfest *cough*

[loras]

TBH:

Legion
- we defeated corrupted Aggrammar with the only form of "empowerment" being our artifact weapons; while Aggrammar being corrupted certainly increased his powers, it wasn't by that much
- we defeated corrupted Argus using our artifact weapons and being empowered by the Titans; Argus was being empowered by the Death magic for millenias, so he was clearly a lot more powerful than Aggrammar, which was balanced by the Pantheon empowering us

Shadowlands
- we defeated Sire Denathrius with the only form of "empowerment" being granted the powers of the covenant of our choice. Considering Denathrius already gave the Jailer his sigil, and the Crown of Harvesters was restored (which also weakened Denathrius), it was pretty much balanced
- we kept up with the Jailer to a certain point, while being empowered by our covenant and by the Crown of Wills which greatly reduced the effect that domination magic has on us... but then the Jailer still overpowered us and we would have been defeated if it wasn't for Azeroth herself pushing back and granting us her boon. It's pretty much established by now that Azeroth is like one of the most powerful beings in the universe (they'll probably retcon her to be some kind of a final First One), I'd say it was actually pretty unbalanced and unfair towards the Jailer lmao.



What do you mean without any help? In Castle Nathria, we were empowered by the covenants - how is it any different than the Titans empowering us while still sitting and doing nothing other than that? You don't need to be in close proximity to be empowered by powerful beings.



A titan that was being empowered by both Death and Fel magic for millenias, while being a being of Order himself. I'd say at that point he was pretty goddamned powerful, more than initially designed by the First Ones (if they created the Titans) and needing the whole Pantheon of Order to fight back a being infused with THREE Cosmic forces is not that far fetched.

Uh, Aggrammar was a lot weaker, being a reconstructed shadow of himself. I think he was even referred to as an avatar.
Also compare him to Sargeras; he's nothing remotely close, clearly not more powerful than a titan. More comparable to Odyn.

Argus was nascent and tortured, while this aligned him with death and made him more useful to the Legion it is doubtful that it made him any more powerful.
If anything torture would have made him weaker.
(and even then he easily kills us despite the ongoing help of the pantheon).

Additionally it should be noted that those artefacts in unison had the power to counteract the world-destroying energies of Sargeras' blade, not a single one can be underestimated.

Denathrius is indeed heavily weakened, but the crown of wills only counteracted the Jailer's domination magic, as did Azeroth's magic. For the rest he is pretty much at full power while we received a relatively modest powerboost from the covenants.
So... where exactly does he begin to measure up?
Some here have typified him as "Bob the Janitor", and frankly he has not exceeded that level at any point, him being "titan++" level reeks of a combination of poor storytelling (or outright bullshit) and a clumsy attempt to forcefully redefine warcraft.

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>"Jailer is a Titan++ level threat"
>We defeated Denathrius and the Jailer without any help from the other Eternal Ones
>It took the combined force of the entire titan Pantheon to help us defeat a single nascent, unfinished titan

Yeah I don't think it was ever in question honestly

A tortured, drained, nascent* titan.

[Ealyssa]

We destroyed Aggrammar like it was nothing.

And argus was empowered by the essence of death following a plan from Zovaal. So no, if anything they are equal with the death robots being maybe slightly ahead.

[darkoms]

TBH:

Legion
- we defeated corrupted Aggrammar with the only form of "empowerment" being our artifact weapons; while Aggrammar being corrupted certainly increased his powers, it wasn't by that much
- we defeated corrupted Argus using our artifact weapons and being empowered by the Titans; Argus was being empowered by the Death magic for millenias, so he was clearly a lot more powerful than Aggrammar, which was balanced by the Pantheon empowering us

Shadowlands
- we defeated Sire Denathrius with the only form of "empowerment" being granted the powers of the covenant of our choice. Considering Denathrius already gave the Jailer his sigil, and the Crown of Harvesters was restored (which also weakened Denathrius), it was pretty much balanced
- we kept up with the Jailer to a certain point, while being empowered by our covenant and by the Crown of Wills which greatly reduced the effect that domination magic has on us... but then the Jailer still overpowered us and we would have been defeated if it wasn't for Azeroth herself pushing back and granting us her boon. It's pretty much established by now that Azeroth is like one of the most powerful beings in the universe (they'll probably retcon her to be some kind of a final First One), I'd say it was actually pretty unbalanced and unfair towards the Jailer lmao.



What do you mean without any help? In Castle Nathria, we were empowered by the covenants - how is it any different than the Titans empowering us while still sitting and doing nothing other than that? You don't need to be in close proximity to be empowered by powerful beings.



A titan that was being empowered by both Death and Fel magic for millenias, while being a being of Order himself. I'd say at that point he was pretty goddamned powerful, more than initially designed by the First Ones (if they created the Titans) and needing the whole Pantheon of Order to fight back a being infused with THREE Cosmic forces is not that far fetched.

You do know that Agrammar was just an avatar and Argus was born prematurely so both of them weren't at full strength, right?


We have buffs in every addon, but we still need help when fighting really powerful enemies. I also do not know in what way this Crown weakened Denatrius.

- - - Updated - - -

We destroyed Aggrammar like it was nothing.

And argus was empowered by the essence of death following a plan from Zovaal. So no, if anything they are equal with the death robots being maybe slightly ahead.

You do know that Agrammar was just an avatar and Argus was born prematurely so both of them weren't at full strength, right?

[TickTickTick]

You do know that Agrammar was just an avatar

Was he though? I thought the state of the Pantheon was that Aggrammar was turned by Sargeras, Eonar managed to escape and the rest of the Pantheon was captured and in the process of being turned by the Shivvara chicks.

and Argus was born prematurely so both of them weren't at full strength, right?

Was he born prematurely, or exactly at the right moment for both Sargeras AND Zovaal?
We don't know what the process of a titan's birth looks like. We don't know how long exactly they should be just a soul. Argus' birth occurs right after Aggrammar's defeat, the final wall between us and stopping Sargeras' plan. To me it looks like planned.

In any case, what does it matter if he wasn't at full strength as a titan, if he was being funneled Death and Fel magic for millenias? I'd say at that point he was still stronger than your average titan because he wielded three cosmic forces, not one.

I also do not know in what way this Crown weakened Denatrius.

It's explained in Venthyr campaign. This is why we collect the Medallions.

[darkoms]

Was he though? I thought the state of the Pantheon was that Aggrammar was turned by Sargeras, Eonar managed to escape and the rest of the Pantheon was captured and in the process of being turned by the Shivvara chicks.



Was he born prematurely, or exactly at the right moment for both Sargeras AND Zovaal?
We don't know what the process of a titan's birth looks like. We don't know how long exactly they should be just a soul. Argus' birth occurs right after Aggrammar's defeat, the final wall between us and stopping Sargeras' plan. To me it looks like planned.

In any case, what does it matter if he wasn't at full strength as a titan, if he was being funneled Death and Fel magic for millenias? I'd say at that point he was still stronger than your average titan because he wielded three cosmic forces, not one.




It's explained in Venthyr campaign. This is why we collect the Medallions.

Yes, all Titan spirits only have a fraction of their original power. It was not a full-fledged Titan.


He was forced into a physical form, you see during the fight with Agramar that he is still just a little world-soul. If he had been truly born, his planet would have become his body. It's not about quantity, but about quality, otherwise, according to your logic, Med'An is stronger than Azshara. And you also forget that this whole process was for him endless torture and terrible pain, so it hardly helped him and it also greatly affected his mind.



Tell me more. How exactly does this weaken Denatrius?

[Dreadlack]

Just to set the record straight about Aggramar; we never fought the actual titan Aggramar, we fought an avatar.

As stated by Ion here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ql1dv4elqk4&t=23m35s

[Lochton]

I've always seen them as another group of titans in different packaging, made more sense to me.

[Unholyground]

N'Zoth could also be a Titan++ threat. If N'Zoth succeeds in corrupting Azeroth, the entire universe will be engulfed in a void, and neither Sargeras nor Pantheon will be able to stop it.

The old gods are all weaker than the titans, their equivalent would be the void lords. We have yet to be introduced to the pantheon of void

[Marcosvms]

N'Zoth could also be a Titan++ threat. If N'Zoth succeeds in corrupting Azeroth, the entire universe will be engulfed in a void, and neither Sargeras nor Pantheon will be able to stop it.

Ohhh no for Gods sake, It's not possible... No one mentioned N'zoth and the Old Gods. The comparison here is between the Titans and Eternal Ones. Old Gods are not comparable to these two races

These Old Gods fan boys sometimes piss me off.

[cparle87]

>"Jailer is a Titan++ level threat"
>We defeated Denathrius and the Jailer without any help from the other Eternal Ones
>It took the combined force of the entire titan Pantheon to help us defeat a single nascent, unfinished titan

Yeah I don't think it was ever in question honestly

Except we all had numerous legendaries made by the Primus and the only reason we were even able to approach the Jailer was magic from the Crown of Wills that, again, the Primus made. We may not have had them with us in person but we had a lot of help. Also our soulbind powers and conduits were there to help as well.

[Caerule]

Eh, if the Eternal Ones were the size of a planet, with equivalent energy, I'm sure they'd be as powerful as the Titans. But no, against a fully fledged Titan, they are nothing.

We defeated Avatars of Sargeras (in his tomb) and Aggramar (in Antorus). And we fought Argus with aid of the other Titans, yes. But even in a place where planet-size Titans become greatly reduced in size (I wonder why that is. Maybe to create things that have to work on a mortal scale?), Argus; a freshly spawned Titan, was able to insta-kill us when he used his full strength. That's a lot more power than even the Jailer showed. Denathrius was even less impressive, with all those minions he summoned.

Only Sargeras and Azeroth still have their giant planet-size body. Sargeras destroyed those of the other Titans. In their new smaller manifestations, perhaps the Eternal Ones can get close to their level of power. But a full-size Titan like Sargeras could destroy them and their whole realm with a swing of his blade.

[Jester Joe]

I mean, a man with a bomb is more of a threat than a karate master.

They never said it was about power alone.

[Magical Mudcrab]

- we defeated corrupted Aggrammar with the only form of "empowerment" being our artifact weapons; while Aggrammar being corrupted certainly increased his powers, it wasn't by that much

No, we defeated an avatar of Aggramar which was being used to imprison his World Soul. Aggramar, as well as the rest of the Pantheon, was substantially weaker than they used to be.

- we defeated corrupted Argus using our artifact weapons and being empowered by the Titans; Argus was being empowered by the Death magic for millenias, so he was clearly a lot more powerful than Aggrammar, which was balanced by the Pantheon empowering us

The Fel magic that was being forcibly pumped into Argus did not make him more powerful. The Audio Drama A Thousand Years War makes it clear that the Fel magic was like a poison to Argus, causing it immense pain as the Legion brutally ripped its magic away to expedite the reformation of Demon bodies. Regarding the use of Death magic to corrupt Argus, the idea that it empowered him is unfounded speculation. It's never stated anywhere that Argus benefitted from this, and it was explicit in that the corruption was only to ensure Argus' soul would travel to the shadowlands and cause the Arbiter to shut down.

Additionally, our artefact weapons are all significantly more potent than any magical trinkets or devices we've had since. Even comparing them to just the "most powerful" implements created by the Runecarver (i.e.: the Primus), Frostmourne and the Helm of Domination, we already know that the Blades of the Fallen Prince surpassed Frostmourne in terms of power. For more perspective, the Blades of the Fallen Prince aren't even the most powerful artifact weapon, but still vastly overshadowed anything in the Shadowlands, and we needed all of these artifacts, legendary implements from throughout Warcraft history, and the direct assistance of the Titans to defeat Argus, who was essentially a weakened, prenatal Titan fetus when we killed him.

- we defeated Sire Denathrius with the only form of "empowerment" being granted the powers of the covenant of our choice. Considering Denathrius already gave the Jailer his sigil, and the Crown of Harvesters was restored (which also weakened Denathrius), it was pretty much balanced

This is irrelevant. The power we received from the covenants has never been shown to have the same potency that the Legion artifacts canonically had. Denathrius lost because he's not that powerful.

- we kept up with the Jailer to a certain point, while being empowered by our covenant and by the Crown of Wills which greatly reduced the effect that domination magic has on us... but then the Jailer still overpowered us and we would have been defeated if it wasn't for Azeroth herself pushing back and granting us her boon. It's pretty much established by now that Azeroth is like one of the most powerful beings in the universe (they'll probably retcon her to be some kind of a final First One), I'd say it was actually pretty unbalanced and unfair towards the Jailer lmao.

Anyone who has done the fight knows that Azeroth is not helping us during the fight, and Zovaal is actively using azerite drained from her to empower himself. Not just that, but Zovaal was apparently only able to produce the feat of even hurting Azeroth because of the Forge of Souls beneath Icecrown, which were drilling into her body.