1. #901
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    But as always, Republicans don't seem actually interested in solving the core problem.
    They are interested in that when they believe that the core problem is that women are having too much sex...

  2. #902
    Tesla now offers to reimburse its employees for travel expenses when they seek reproductive care in other states, including abortion. I expect the same with SpaceX and Boring Company. At least if they want to keep those Caltech and Colorado School of Mines grads working.

    Add Goldman and JP Morgan.

    Quick list in addition to the big names like Apple, Amazon, etc.

    Capgemini Invent
    Momentive
    Benefit Cosmetics
    OJO Labs
    Zendesk
    La Colombe Coffee Roasters
    Adya Partners
    Syzygy Plasmonics Inc
    M.M.LaFleur
    Bumble
    Playful Studios/BetRed Stories
    Brenda Thompson Communications
    Visceral
    Luminary
    Internet Creations
    Tenth & Spruce
    Magnet Media, Inc.
    Stitch Fix
    Atlassian
    Lush Fresh Handmade Cosmetics
    The Body Shop
    Box, Inc.
    Asana
    BSR
    VICE Media Group
    HarbourView Equity Partners
    Amalgamated Bank
    mara hoffman
    Michael Stars
    The Cru
    Farmgirl Flowers
    Medicines360
    Everlane
    Houndstooth Coffee
    Established
    Rich Talent Group
    Madewell
    Patagonia
    Glossier
    Seventh Generation
    Mercury Fund
    Ben & Jerry’s Homemade, Inc.
    WP Engine
    Clare V.
    Adasina Social Capital
    Trillium Asset Management LLC
    Spot Insurance Inc.
    People at the Center
    Clean Yield Asset Management
    Earth Equity Advisors, LLC
    Gather Voices
    The Pill Club
    IFundWomen
    The Alchemist
    Elektra Health
    A Sense of Home
    Preacher LLC

    - - - Updated - - -

    Walmart board of directors will be voting on this issue next week. We'll see how it goes. 70% of Walmart stores are in red states.

  3. #903
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasulis View Post
    Tesla now offers to reimburse its employees for travel expenses when they seek reproductive care in other states, including abortion. I expect the same with SpaceX and Boring Company. At least if they want to keep those Caltech and Colorado School of Mines grads working.

    Add Goldman and JP Morgan.

    Quick list in addition to the big names like Apple, Amazon, etc.
    To make a point, don't applaud these companies much. Supporting abortion rights means workers who accidentally get pregnant can get a quick-and-easy abortion and keep working rather than taking maternity leave and causing the company marginal headaches. Paying for their travel to get the abortion is just fiscally cheaper than dealing with a rise in pregnancies, for the company. It's not really a position based on respect for women, for the most part.

    I'm not saying condemn them. Just . . . don't think they're doing this out of nobility or kindness. It's absolutely about their bottom lines.


  4. #904
    @Rasulis

    I really want to see them starting to retaliate by closing stores in these states and stating publicly WHY they are closing there and pulling out, including the military because I know this will completely jack up any concept of military readiness when the military have to worry about their kids well being when they hit puberty in one of these states or the fact ain't none of the female soldiers wanting to be stationed at these bases.

    Can imagine having multiple soldiers on deployment have to be called home because their kids ended up pregnant and either hurt or killed in some back alley abortion or arrested for homicide because they took some morning after pill or traveled out of state or god knows what else. Or the courts go further and they get arrested for being gay or some other crap or some extreme crap where its a boyfriend girlfriend situation where one of them sends a photo of them getting head after the Alito gets rid of the protections on sodomy.

    Once this starts hitting these states so hard that people don't even want to buy crops from them, then it might start to realize that we don't want to deal with this crap.
    Since we can't call out Trolls and Bad Faith posters and the Ignore function doesn't actually ignore it. Add
    "mmo-champion.com##li.postbitignored"
    to your ublock or adblock filter to actually ignore ignored posters. Now just need a way to ignore responses to them as well.

  5. #905
    Quote Originally Posted by s_bushido View Post
    They are interested in that when they believe that the core problem is that women are having too much sex...
    Which is funny...because, if you exclude homosexual activities (which is another thing they desperately want), women are having exactly as much sex as men are. A decrease in the amount that women are having sex will directly affect the amount that men are having sex to the same degree.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    To make a point, don't applaud these companies much. Supporting abortion rights means workers who accidentally get pregnant can get a quick-and-easy abortion and keep working rather than taking maternity leave and causing the company marginal headaches. Paying for their travel to get the abortion is just fiscally cheaper than dealing with a rise in pregnancies, for the company. It's not really a position based on respect for women, for the most part.

    I'm not saying condemn them. Just . . . don't think they're doing this out of nobility or kindness. It's absolutely about their bottom lines.
    Also:

    https://www.businessinsider.com/amaz...oe-wade-2022-5

    Amazon, Coca-Cola, Walmart, and 10 other companies have together donated $15.2 million in the last 6 years to political committees that oppose abortion, analysis finds
    Some of these companies are talking out of both sides of their mouth.
    “The biggest communication problem is we do not listen to understand. We listen to reply,” Stephen Covey.

  6. #906
    I get that the discussion has been poisoned by extremist conservatives and misogynists, but some of the pro-choice arguments here are seriously kind of stupid.
    The extent and limits of abortions are ethically controversial for good reasons.

    Example:
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    Also, "killing a fetus" is weird because the fetus literally can't survive without the host - you know, the woman with bodily autonomy.
    This is just wrong, since a fetus becomes a baby by surviving birth, not by reaching some point of development that enables the fetus to do so. There are even cases of humans who survived their own late-term abortion (whether this would be called a miracle or a nightmare probably depends a lot on who you ask).
    The point is, nowadays a fetus has a good chance of surviving after week ~25, so basically for the entire last three months of a normal pregnancy. And that makes it a lot harder to argue for an abortion without medical reasons in this timeframe.

    On the other hand, it's obviously nonsense to treat an embryo/fetus in early pregenancy, with barely developed organs and no capability to feel, like a fully fledged human (especially considering how many pregnancies fail naturally during the first months, often even unnoticed). But wherever you draw the legal line between this and an actual sentient unborn child, it's going to be arbitrary. And thus controversial.
    There's also the issue of disability-related abortions and eugenics.


    Regarding the current situation in the US: The draconic abortion restrictions that some states (awfully many actually) are pushing are, aside from the vileness, simply idiotic. It won't stop women from getting abortions, it will just push them to use illegal and unsave means. And that will cost lives instead of saving them.
    If they actually cared about getting abortion rates down, then maybe they should promote sex ed, contraceptives, good healthcare, and just provide support for pregnant women and mothers in general, without judging their circumstances. But of course these are all things that conservatives tend to dislike for some reason...

  7. #907
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryom View Post
    The extent and limits of abortions are ethically controversial for good reasons.
    And are largely irrelevant, given that said extremist misogynists want to ban it entirely, despite the vast majority of abortions occurring in the first several weeks.

  8. #908
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryom View Post
    I get that the discussion has been poisoned by extremist conservatives and misogynists, but some of the pro-choice arguments here are seriously kind of stupid.
    The extent and limits of abortions are ethically controversial for good reasons.

    Example:

    This is just wrong, since a fetus becomes a baby by surviving birth, not by reaching some point of development that enables the fetus to do so. There are even cases of humans who survived their own late-term abortion (whether this would be called a miracle or a nightmare probably depends a lot on who you ask).
    The point is, nowadays a fetus has a good chance of surviving after week ~25, so basically for the entire last three months of a normal pregnancy. And that makes it a lot harder to argue for an abortion without medical reasons in this timeframe.
    Nah. Just means you need to induce birth rather than use some other more-directly-harmful method of abortion. Ending the pregnancy should still be on the table, if you give a shit about women's bodily autonomy at all.

    Once the fetus is out, it's up to doctors to keep it alive in the NICU.

    There's also the issue of disability-related abortions and eugenics.
    It's an imaginary "issue". Some people think it's gross and would never do such a thing. That's fine. Unless they're the one who's pregnant, why should their opinion matter? Why do they get to restrict someone else's basic rights to control the use of their own body?

    Can we extend that to forcing people to donate tissue against their will if it'll help a patient recover from some condition? It's the same fundamental argument. If the process is gonna cause you constant pain and inconvenience for 9 months as the treatment continues, you've just gotta suck that up because you don't get a choice in whether you're harvested, and that's fine, right?

    Or is that a super shitty and dehumanizing point of view and it remains just as shitty and dehumanizing if it's a woman hosting a fetus she doesn't want?


  9. #909
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryom View Post

    This is just wrong, since a fetus becomes a baby by surviving birth, not by reaching some point of development that enables the fetus to do so. There are even cases of humans who survived their own late-term abortion (whether this would be called a miracle or a nightmare probably depends a lot on who you ask).
    The point is, nowadays a fetus has a good chance of surviving after week ~25, so basically for the entire last three months of a normal pregnancy. And that makes it a lot harder to argue for an abortion without medical reasons in this timeframe.
    Great, let's allow woman to have their babies removed at 25 weeks then. Whatever happens to it after that is no longer her concern.
    “The biggest communication problem is we do not listen to understand. We listen to reply,” Stephen Covey.

  10. #910
    Quote Originally Posted by s_bushido View Post
    And are largely irrelevant, given that said extremist misogynists want to ban it entirely, despite the vast majority of abortions occurring in the first several weeks.
    Yeah sure, I'm not arguing for Republican positions here, I'm just surprised and a bit bewildered by how many posters here seem to think abortion is not a debatable issue, that there are no ethical problems involved and there should be no restrictions at all. Or at least that how is comes across.


    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Nah. Just means you need to induce birth rather than use some other more-directly-harmful method of abortion. Ending the pregnancy should still be on the table, if you give a shit about women's bodily autonomy at all.

    Once the fetus is out, it's up to doctors to keep it alive in the NICU.
    A forcefully induced premature birth would not be safe for the child, with a considerable risk of development issues or permanent damage. You would get people disabled as a direct result of a medically unnecessary procedure. I can't really wrap my head around how you 100% support the mother's needs and her bodily autonomy and and the same time entirely ignore the child and it's wellbeing, and even endorse endangering it, even during a birth that it's supposed to survive.

    And well, at least here in Germany this isn't how it's done. There was a case here that made the news in the nineties where the fetus, against all expectations, survived an abortion even after not being tended to for hours after the birth. Was severely disabled but lived to the age of 21.
    As of now the fetus is killed via lethal injection before inducing the birth in late-term abortions to avoid situations like that. And I'm not necessarily against that, it really depends on the situation, but I hope you can see why this is problematic?

    It's an imaginary "issue". Some people think it's gross and would never do such a thing. That's fine. Unless they're the one who's pregnant, why should their opinion matter? Why do they get to restrict someone else's basic rights to control the use of their own body?
    The reason why people think abortions should be regulated is because they think this is not just a personal decision when there is a third party involved - the fetus. Yeah, a fetus isn't a baby with full human rights and all, but at least at the point where the birth is really all that seperates one from the other I find it hard to think that is deserves no rights whatsoever. Is that really so hard to comprehend?

    Can we extend that to forcing people to donate tissue against their will if it'll help a patient recover from some condition? It's the same fundamental argument. If the process is gonna cause you constant pain and inconvenience for 9 months as the treatment continues, you've just gotta suck that up because you don't get a choice in whether you're harvested, and that's fine, right?

    Or is that a super shitty and dehumanizing point of view and it remains just as shitty and dehumanizing if it's a woman hosting a fetus she doesn't want?
    If you can't see the difference between a situation where someone dies because noone goes out of their way to help them, and where someone is actively killed for someone's convenience then i can't help you.

    And I've never said women shouldn't have a choice about their pregnancy. But I think at some point they should make a decision and stand by it, to avoid abortions in the late stage of fetus development (there are exeptions of course).


    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Midnight Bomber View Post
    Great, let's allow woman to have their babies removed at 25 weeks then. Whatever happens to it after that is no longer her concern.
    See me reply to Endus.

  11. #911
    It's really messed up if you consider the fact that living women have less bodily autonomy than corpses.

    You can't (legally) take organs from a dead body without consent to save a life, but apparently pregnant women should just suck it up because we hate them or something (as if we've had millennia of systemic misogyny). And to top it all off, once that baby is out we're going to give zero shits about that baby's well-being and continue not caring about the mother. Let them live in poverty and misery, because as long as I feel righteous about it then all is well.

    /rant over
    "In order to maintain a tolerant society, the society must be intolerant of intolerance." Paradox of tolerance

  12. #912
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryom View Post

    See me reply to Endus.
    Then they don't have a "good chance of surviving" after all.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryom View Post

    And I've never said women shouldn't have a choice about their pregnancy. But I think at some point they should make a decision and stand by it, to avoid abortions in the late stage of fetus development (there are exeptions of course).
    About 99% of abortions happen in the first 20 weeks. Of the remaining ~1%...most of those were pregancies that the mother had intended to carry to term...but something happened in the later stages of pregnancy that forced the issue.

    The anti-abortion line of callous women murdering babies is fiction.
    “The biggest communication problem is we do not listen to understand. We listen to reply,” Stephen Covey.

  13. #913
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Midnight Bomber View Post
    About 99% of abortions happen in the first 20 weeks. Of the remaining ~1%...most of those were pregancies that the mother had intended to carry to term...but something happened in the later stages of pregnancy that forced the issue.

    The anti-abortion line of callous women murdering babies is fiction.
    I believe around 50% of abortions are also just induced miscarriages. They always bring up the mechanical abortions and ignore that a lot of early abortions are chemical.

    It is literally just conservatives making people up to be mad at.
    Peace is a lie. There is only passion. Through passion I gain strength. Through strength I gain power.
    Through power I gain victory. Through victory my chains are broken. The Force shall set me free.
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  14. #914
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryom View Post
    The reason why people think abortions should be regulated is because they think this is not just a personal decision when there is a third party involved - the fetus. Yeah, a fetus isn't a baby with full human rights and all, but at least at the point where the birth is really all that seperates one from the other I find it hard to think that is deserves no rights whatsoever. Is that really so hard to comprehend?
    So you concede that the fetus isn't a baby with full human rights, and yet we should still "think of the children" when it comes to trampling on the woman's? How does that make any sense?

  15. #915
    Queen of Cake Splenda's Avatar
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    Here's something I don't understand.

    Is someone who is "pro life" going to agree that allowing an abortion for an entopic pregnancy is okay? The fetus is not viable and the mother WILL die.

    Yeah cool? So murdering an "unborn" is okay in this case.

    If you say not even then, you are condemning a woman to death- the fetus is dead either way.
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  16. #916
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryom View Post
    A forcefully induced premature birth would not be safe for the child, with a considerable risk of development issues or permanent damage. You would get people disabled as a direct result of a medically unnecessary procedure. I can't really wrap my head around how you 100% support the mother's needs and her bodily autonomy and and the same time entirely ignore the child and it's wellbeing, and even endorse endangering it, even during a birth that it's supposed to survive.
    Because;

    1> There is no "child". A fetus is not a child. Particularly at the stage of development most abortions are done.
    2> The need of another individual in no other circumstance can justify the violation of a person's bodily autonomy. So why would abortion be a special exception to the general rule? There's never any explanation for this which doesn't boil down to an emotional kneejerk that treats women as lesser beings and thus less deserving of basic rights.

    And well, at least here in Germany this isn't how it's done. There was a case here that made the news in the nineties where the fetus, against all expectations, survived an abortion even after not being tended to for hours after the birth. Was severely disabled but lived to the age of 21.
    As of now the fetus is killed via lethal injection before inducing the birth in late-term abortions to avoid situations like that. And I'm not necessarily against that, it really depends on the situation, but I hope you can see why this is problematic?
    I'm seeing an entirely emotional argument that treats women as lesser beings and thus less deserving of basic human rights. That's what you're describing here. That irrationality and the premise that women shouldn't have bodily autonomy are not convincing elements in that argument, once you stop reacting emotionally.

    If you're under the impression that abortions are pretty and fun, maybe that argument would really bother you. I know they're ugly and distressing and a choice made in desperation when all other choices have failed.

    The reason why people think abortions should be regulated is because they think this is not just a personal decision when there is a third party involved - the fetus. Yeah, a fetus isn't a baby with full human rights and all, but at least at the point where the birth is really all that seperates one from the other I find it hard to think that is deserves no rights whatsoever. Is that really so hard to comprehend?
    It's easy to comprehend, it's just a bullshit pseudo-religious if not overtly-religious claim which doesn't actually make for a convincing counter-argument, because in literally any other circumstance, even the case of a 10-minute blood donation for transfusion that would save the life of a brilliant actual scientist who's on the verge of a breakthrough in cancer treatment, you can not force a person to give that transfusion against their will. Even though it would save an actual human life. Even though that human life is a positive influence on society. Even though it only takes 10 minutes of your time and has basically no real chance at any negative consequences, unlike pregnancy.

    The answer's still "fuck no, forced tissue donation is weirdo fascist garbage".

    So why would pregnancy, which is vastly more impactful and has a wide range of negatives to consider, be considered an exception to that standard rule? When the fetus isn't an actual human life, and there's no guarantee that any hypothetical human that might eventually exist is going to be a beneficial member of society, rather than, say, a drunk wife-beater who sideswipes and kills three kids at a crosswalk while driving drunk one day? Particularly relevant since one of the arguments as to why crime has dropped since the '80s is that abortion has been a legitimate option; https://www.nber.org/system/files/wo...8319/w8319.pdf

    If you can't see the difference between a situation where someone dies because noone goes out of their way to help them, and where someone is actively killed for someone's convenience then i can't help you.
    Who said nobody should help the fetus? If it's viable, get it out with minimal harm and get it into the NICU. If it's not, saying it's being "killed" is pretty wildly hyperbolic; it's dying all on its own.

    And I've never said women shouldn't have a choice about their pregnancy. But I think at some point they should make a decision and stand by it, to avoid abortions in the late stage of fetus development (there are exeptions of course).
    If a right like bodily autonomy is conditional, then it isn't a right, and that means your argument is that women deserve fewer rights than men.

    That's the problem. Some of us don't ignore that the pregnant woman's a real person and has rights. That's why this anti-choice nonsense falls flat.


  17. #917
    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Midnight Bomber View Post
    Then they don't have a "good chance of surviving" after all.

    - - - Updated - - -



    About 99% of abortions happen in the first 20 weeks. Of the remaining ~1%...most of those were pregancies that the mother had intended to carry to term...but something happened in the later stages of pregnancy that forced the issue.

    The anti-abortion line of callous women murdering babies is fiction.
    I've always found this line of reasoning pretty perplexing--women are too callous to be trusted, so they must become mothers.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryom View Post
    ~snip~
    This is where you give your real thoughts about women away: "where someone is actively killed for someone's convenience"

    It's a dead giveaway that you've never thought even a tiny bit how pregnancy, childbirth, and motherhood actually affect women, beyond your casual contempt for them generally. This is one more reason women's fundamental humanity to determine what happens to their bodies and their lives should never ever be up for a vote, giving people like you a say.
    Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition, to wit: There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect. There is nothing more or else to it, and there never has been, in any place or time. --Frank Wilhoit

  18. #918
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryom View Post
    drivel.
    So let's do a hypothetical here. And we're allowed to engage in outlandish hypotheticals because you are already engaging in outlandish and extremely rare hypotheticals as an argument for banning abortions altogether. And I am legitimately curious what your answer would be.

    A baby is born. He is suffering from a rare but easily treatable medical condition that would require daily blood transfusions from the father for a period of 9 months.

    Would you like to show me a court or a legislative body in the United States that you'd think would force a father to do that?

    I can even throw in an extra wrench. What if the father (in disagreement with the mother) claims a strongly held religious belief that would prohibit him from donating blood?

    1. Explain to me how is this scenario different from forcing a mother to carry a pregnancy to term (beyond it being much less risky for the donor).

    2. Explain to me what legal principles would you apply to denying the father both his bodily autonomy and his religious freedoms.

    But when you do that please take into account other considerations such as what would be the legal consequences of all this on general bodily autonomy rights, religious freedoms and greater parental rights (such as parents whom refuse vaccinations or medical treatments and blood transfusions).

    Give it a shot. I'm curious.

  19. #919
    The Lightbringer
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    Presented without context, for anyone who thinks the 'Brood mares' stuff is just hyperbole.

    Conservative Supreme Court Justice Barrett, wrote a brief about abortion. She noted the USA needed a “domestic supply of infants” to meet needs of parents seeking infants to adopt. She argued that mothers must birth their baby & give it up for adoption to meet market demands.

  20. #920
    Quote Originally Posted by UnifiedDivide View Post
    “domestic supply of infants”
    "market demands"

    wat.
    One more time. Conservatives look at the Handmaid's Tale Gilead for inspiration.

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