Raid Rewards Experiments in Season 4

[Royru]

Except the way you earn said 'badges' is totally different? How is this new system more complicated? You will get potentially 3 items you can use to redeem for items. That's it. No dungeon running, no sifting through page after page on vendors to find items. Badges were just a constant drip you had to do in various content modes depending on the expansion. This currency comes from raids only.

Do I seriously need to explain the wotlk badge system to everyone here? You guys are seriously so lost. Do I really need to make an explain to me like I’m five? If you don’t understand how it works then why are you commenting

[bledgor]

Do I seriously need to explain the wotlk badge system to everyone here? You guys are seriously so lost. Do I really need to make an explain to me like I’m five? If you don’t understand how it works then why are you commenting

Cool if you enjoy shopping for loot go play WotlK classic and bugger off.

[Vyomesh2]

Cool if you enjoy shopping for loot go play WotlK classic and bugger off.

Gear vendors are objectively better. Why do you like to waste your time so much? God I had SO much fun not getting any weapons AT ALL in S1 of SL for my Rogue. So much fun that I had to farm out PvP weapons to actually get a damn upgrade.

[Royru]

Cool if you enjoy shopping for loot go play WotlK classic and bugger off.

You’re literally shopping for loot with this system too wtf

Edit: also imagine having this mentality

Scenario 1: raider is required to raid to get gear, he raids for 3 months, he gets half lucky and get half his gear but still hasn’t gotten a few pieces.

Scenario 2: raider is required to raid to get gear, he raids for 3 months, he got enough badges to get the gear he was missing on top of the gear he got from raiding.

“OMG IMAGINE JUST SHOPPING FOR YOUR GEAR”

You’re doing the exact same thing for the exact same gear. One is just guaranteed so you don’t have to pray to the video game gods that your time was worth putting into the game? I mean idk I prefer to let my video games reward me for my time and not just hope for the best.

[SinR]

This has my interest

[Swnem]

The 3 dinnar thing has a flaw. Classes that don't dual wield can get a weapon and 2 trinkets, but the ones that do can only get 1 trinket.
Therefore i suggest 1h weapons be sold in a pair in the vendor or they will be at a disadvantage.

[Relapses]

You’re doing the exact same thing for the exact same gear. One is just guaranteed so you don’t have to pray to the video game gods that your time was worth putting into the game? I mean idk I prefer to let my video games reward me for my time and not just hope for the best.

Again, if you're comparing this to Emblems of Frost then it's still an improvement because the gear you bought with these Emblems was (almost always) inferior to the stuff which dropped from the raid. This system will only give you trinkets or weapons... something even WotLK's badge system wouldn't allow. The other difference is the speed at which we will acquire the currency to buy the gear; presumably this system will be much slower than Emblems of Frost, which, again, is probably a good thing considering how powerful the potential items you can buy with it will be. I don't know why you insist on flaming people asking them if they know how WotLK's badge system worked or accusing people of failing reading comprehension when it appears the only difference between you and the people you're arguing with is that they do not share your apparently irreproachable opinion that WotLK's system was better.

[arkanon]

The 3 dinnar thing has a flaw. Classes that don't dual wield can get a weapon and 2 trinkets, but the ones that do can only get 1 trinket.
Therefore i suggest 1h weapons be sold in a pair in the vendor or they will be at a disadvantage.

My first though was exactly this. Maybe I'm missing something but it's certainly a factor.

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Again, if you're comparing this to Emblems of Frost then it's still an improvement because the gear you bought with these Emblems was (almost always) inferior to the stuff which dropped from the raid. This system will only give you trinkets or weapons... something even WotLK's badge system wouldn't allow. The other difference is the speed at which we will acquire the currency to buy the gear; presumably this system will be much slower than Emblems of Frost, which, again, is probably a good thing considering how powerful the potential items you can buy with it will be. I don't know why you insist on flaming people asking them if they know how WotLK's badge system worked or accusing people of failing reading comprehension when it appears the only difference between you and the people you're arguing with is that they do not share your apparently irreproachable opinion that WotLK's system was better.

Personally, I try to avoid comparing early expansion with wow, from a hearing perspective. My main reasons for this are the gearing in general has changed so much, it's apples and oranges, with so many avenues available. Secondly, with so many difficulties now, it gets really difficult to compare in a fair and honest way.

So I think that's where people get tripped up.

[Royru]

Again, if you're comparing this to Emblems of Frost then it's still an improvement because the gear you bought with these Emblems was (almost always) inferior to the stuff which dropped from the raid. This system will only give you trinkets or weapons... something even WotLK's badge system wouldn't allow. The other difference is the speed at which we will acquire the currency to buy the gear; presumably this system will be much slower than Emblems of Frost, which, again, is probably a good thing considering how powerful the potential items you can buy with it will be. I don't know why you insist on flaming people asking them if they know how WotLK's badge system worked or accusing people of failing reading comprehension when it appears the only difference between you and the people you're arguing with is that they do not share your apparently irreproachable opinion that WotLK's system was better.

Because you were proving to me that you had no idea how it worked when you straight up said because would abuse it by farming dungeons, if you don't want me pointing out that you don't know how it works...then type as if you know how it works.

Again, if you're comparing this to Emblems of Frost then it's still an improvement because the gear you bought with these Emblems was (almost always) inferior to the stuff which dropped from the raid. This system will only give you trinkets or weapons... something even WotLK's badge system wouldn't allow.

I will once again repeat myself, just so you don't miss it this time.

The items present by the vendor does not make the system. If you remove the tier gear from the badge vendor in wotlk, it’s still the badge system. I…. Cant believe I just had to explain that lol.

You understand you can put the same items from the new system into the wotlk badge system… and it’s still the badge system right?

Do you get it now?

The other difference is the speed at which we will acquire the currency to buy the gear; presumably this system will be much slower than Emblems of Frost, which, again

Wait a minute this sounds familiar

What are you taking about did you even read what this system is dude? It is LITERALLY the badge system just with a lot of extra steps and restrictions. It IS deterministic loot. You are talking as if you didn’t even read how this works.

It's almost as if that's exactly what I said...that's weird isn't it?

And you were telling me this system is so vastly different and that the wotlk system is just deterministic loot and the new system is SO much different in how you get your gear.

So this whole time you were just saying that the only thing that makes it SOOO much better and SOOO much different...is that it's...slower?

Your account is 14 years old so I'm going to assume you're a big boy at this point. Lets start thinking like one friend.

[munkeyinorbit]

No it’s not better lol. The only thing that’s “better” is the items you can get. But that has nothing to do with the system itself that’s just the items.

And what do you mean upgrade items to a better level? You upgrade items to the level that you’re currently farming. It starts off as a worse piece but it gets better by the addition of a badge like system but it’s only to upgrade your shitty piece you obtained from a different badge like system with a ton of extra steps.

The badge system are both those systems put into one, but simpler. I’m seriously confused why you guys are saying this isn’t more complicated, you are talking like you have no idea how the badge system in wotlk worked at all.

The badge system does not upgrade anything. It's just a currency to get some of the worst gear in the game. This system is far superior. You get weapons and trinkets. The two most wanted slots.

In your confused word salad you've disagreed with me but in your explanation why you have agreed with me. It's kind of weird.

[NineSpine]

Oh yeah, four fucking badges from all different types of content used to buy different sets of Tier used for different types of content. What a perfectly straight-forward, simple system with absolutely zero drawbacks whatsoever. I get it, though. You want deterministic loot. The very thought of shopping lists gets you a little bit misty. That's fine. You can play shopping list simulator in WotLK Classic. Here in retail, though, we live in a world where the developers have learned from the mistake which was WotLK's boring badge system and instead get to benefit from something that gives built-in BLP for people clearing the content anyway.

That system you are deriding is 1/10th as complicated as this convoluted season 4 system.

[Argorwal]

Sounds like it’s a guarantee on getting up to 3 BiS trinkets and/or weapons from the raid loot tables.

[Royru]

The badge system does not upgrade anything. It's just a currency to get some of the worst gear in the game. This system is far superior. You get weapons and trinkets. The two most wanted slots.

In your confused word salad you've disagreed with me but in your explanation why you have agreed with me. It's kind of weird.

Seems you need to read this thread a bit to get some more information

[bledgor]

You’re literally shopping for loot with this system too wtf

Edit: also imagine having this mentality

Scenario 1: raider is required to raid to get gear, he raids for 3 months, he gets half lucky and get half his gear but still hasn’t gotten a few pieces.

Scenario 2: raider is required to raid to get gear, he raids for 3 months, he got enough badges to get the gear he was missing on top of the gear he got from raiding.

“OMG IMAGINE JUST SHOPPING FOR YOUR GEAR”

You’re doing the exact same thing for the exact same gear. One is just guaranteed so you don’t have to pray to the video game gods that your time was worth putting into the game? I mean idk I prefer to let my video games reward me for my time and not just hope for the best.

Imagine wanting to play the game, but no you wankers want to come here and bitch about the game. Don't like it play wotlk classic and bugger off.

I dont want deterministic loot, I enjoy the surprise factor in getting the loot from the boss. If I wanted deterministic loot I wouldn't play an RPG. I also don't play the game to get specific loot, I play the game for the challenge and to enjoy it with friends, if you play it for loot, I suggest you find a different game.

[Relapses]

Because you were proving to me that you had no idea how it worked when you straight up said because would abuse it by farming dungeons, if you don't want me pointing out that you don't know how it works...then type as if you know how it works.

I used that as an example of something that people would do if a similar system were in place. Emblems of Frost didn't work like that but the other three Emblems did. The whole system was kind of stupid and very unintuitive to new players. And it's really hard to compare the state of the game from a decade ago to how it is now because the game was much different. Back then you pretty played the game to raid ICC; nowadays we have M+ as an alternative gearing path which didn't exist at that time. You're comparing one part of a much larger, much less successful system and hailing it as a success story then criticizing this similar system because it isn't a copy and paste of what WotLK had.

And you were telling me this system is so vastly different and that the wotlk system is just deterministic loot and the new system is SO much different in how you get your gear.

So this whole time you were just saying that the only thing that makes it SOOO much better and SOOO much different...is that it's...slower?

Your account is 14 years old so I'm going to assume you're a big boy at this point. Lets start thinking like one friend.

It's slower because of the power of the system which is, imo, better than what Emblems of Frost presented. And it's much, much better than WotLK's badge system as a whole which was, imo, an inferior way to gear characters. That's been my argument since the first post in this thread.

[Royru]

Imagine wanting to play the game, but no you wankers want to come here and bitch about the game. Don't like it play wotlk classic and bugger off.

I dont want deterministic loot, I enjoy the surprise factor in getting the loot from the boss. If I wanted deterministic loot I wouldn't play an RPG. I also don't play the game to get specific loot, I play the game for the challenge and to enjoy it with friends, if you play it for loot, I suggest you find a different game.

This.

System.

Is.

Deterministic.

Loot.

How.

Are.

You.

People.

Not.

Getting.

This.

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I used that as an example of something that people would do if a similar system were in place.

And that example doesn't match up because that isn't how the system works. You understand?

Emblems of Frost didn't work like that but the other three Emblems did.

I believe we were discussing current raid tier loot correct? I have absolutely no clue why you would even humor the idea that we are discussing previous raid tier loot.

nd it's really hard to compare the state of the game from a decade ago to how it is now because the game was much different. Back then you pretty played the game to raid ICC; nowadays we have M+ as an alternative gearing path which didn't exist at that time. You're comparing one part of a much larger, much less successful system and hailing it as a success story then criticizing this similar system because it isn't a copy and paste of what WotLK had.

It's very easy to compare when they implement a system that is essentially the exact same thing as badges, except with a ton of extra steps and way more complicated.

It's slower because of the power of the system which is, imo, better than what Emblems of Frost presented. And it's much, much better than WotLK's badge system as a whole which was, imo, an inferior way to gear characters. That's been my argument since the first post in this thread.

And the only thing you have said is the difference of the system is that it's slower.

So it's slower because it's better

And it's better because it's slower.

But it's completely different because this one is better.

And this one is better because it's slower.

You understand you aren't actually saying anything or explaining why it's better besides "it's slower" right?

[Relapses]

And that example doesn't match up because that isn't how the system works. You understand?

I understood your critique the first time you posted it. But...

I believe we were discussing current raid tier loot correct? I have absolutely no clue why you would even humor the idea that we are discussing previous raid tier loot.

Emblems of Frost were *ahem* emblematic of a greater flaw in design philosophy which was what the badge system as a whole in WotLK represented. It's not really correct to focus on only one part of the system and say that it was 100% good when the bad parts of the system were carried over from earlier parts of the expansion.

It's very easy to compare when they implement a system that is essentially the exact same thing as badges, except with a ton of extra steps and way more complicated.



And the only thing you have said is the difference of the system is that it's slower.

So it's slower because it's better

And it's better because it's slower.

But it's completely different because this one is better.

And this one is better because it's slower.

You understand you aren't actually saying anything or explaining why it's better besides "it's slower" right?

...I don't know why you insist on leaving out key parts of my argument to make it seem like I'm saying something I'm not. I said that it's better that it's slower because of the relative power of the items available from this system. If that amount of power were available in a system more similar to Emblems of Frost then I would think that it's a bad addition because it would encourage people to max out the resource to get their BiS. In this system the currency is obtained to supplement your regular gear intake from raiding. You won't feel compelled to grind it because you'll have it... the only choice you have is which three items you'll use it on. Yes, you could treat the Emblem of Frost system in a similar manner but most did not. (In fact, badge farming groups are one of the things many people remember most about late-WotLK.) It's a key difference in philosophy between the systems which, imo, makes this one superior.

It seems like you are of the opinion that WotLK's badge system had no downsides whatsoever and that if Blizzard doesn't reimplement exactly that to the game then they are actively working against their playerbase. Obviously I don't see it that way, though I will concede that on a surface level it's easy to just call this "badge gear with extra steps."

[Utrrabbit]

god they never will give up

another idiotic over convoluted system because Ion will never admit he was wrong about VP vendor removal

instead just give us normal gear vendors they are going miles and above creating another abomination that noobdy wants.

gg blizz - you are digging that hole deeper and deeper - in season that will be ignored anyway as its rehash of old content.

im just speechless how incompetent devs in blizzard are.

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we know what system players want

we known it for past decade

players want VP vendors with multiple gear pieces and currency farmable outside of raids too. and ability to upgrade raid gear the same way mythic + players upgrade gear

but untill Ion is fired player wont get what players want.

Speak for yourself. I like the ides they have for loot in S4.

You do not speak for anyone, infact you speak nonsense. No one wants what you said. That is such a bad idea you should feep ashamed.

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this system offers exackly 0 gear progression for casual players.

it offers 0 gear progression outside of pick your 3 most bis pieces and use this system to craft it.

liek you said - it happens in background yoou cannot actively do anything to grind it.

you an just passively gain it as longas your guild is capable of killing many bosses in timely manner

if your guild is not so good = tough luck it will provide you 0 help with progress.

this shows perfeckly how casual unfriendly design of Dragonflight will be.

its terryfiing how out of touch with players they are

another system benefit 1 % and alienating 99 % .

Ummm

Here is an idea. Find a better guild or just get better so you can do the content.

[Relapses]

That system you are deriding is 1/10th as complicated as this convoluted season 4 system.

As I've said throughout the thread, it's fair to call the systems similar but the intent behind why they were added to the game is pretty different. Blizzard's philosophy for loot in WotLK was far more deterministic (and, imo, boring) whereas this is being added as a form of BLP to supplement the already-existing loot system. And while I'm usually a proponent of Occam's Razor, this particular system offers a key level of BLP which the game hasn't had pretty much ever. Full on badge vendors is too far in the direction of the mistakes Blizzard already corrected in the expansions post-WotLK. This is half measure which solves one problem (shitty luck) without making the game feel too much like a shopping list simulator.

[Royru]

I understood your critique the first time you posted it. But...



Emblems of Frost were *ahem* emblematic of a greater flaw in design philosophy which was what the badge system as a whole in WotLK represented. It's not really correct to focus on only one part of the system and say that it was 100% good when the bad parts of the system were carried over from earlier parts of the expansion.



...I don't know why you insist on leaving out key parts of my argument to make it seem like I'm saying something I'm not. I said that it's better that it's slower because of the relative power of the items available from this system. If that amount of power were available in a system more similar to Emblems of Frost then I would think that it's a bad addition because it would encourage people to max out the resource to get their BiS. In this system the currency is obtained to supplement your regular gear intake from raiding. You won't feel compelled to grind it because you'll have it... the only choice you have is which three items you'll use it on. Yes, you could treat the Emblem of Frost system in a similar manner but most did not. (In fact, badge farming groups are one of the things many people remember most about late-WotLK.) It's a key difference in philosophy between the systems which, imo, makes this one superior.

It seems like you are of the opinion that WotLK's badge system had no downsides whatsoever and that if Blizzard doesn't exactly that to the game then they are actively working against their playerbase. Obviously I don't see it that way, though I will concede that on a surface level it's easy to just call this "badge gear with extra steps."

I’m leaving out that part of the argument because I have literally already told you this 3 times but fuck it let’s do it a fourth time and maybe it will stick this time.

The gear inside the system doesn’t make the system. You can take tier gear out of the badge system and it’s still the badge system. You can put all the same items from this system into the badge system and guess what? It’s still the badge system.

So once AGAIN the only difference in the systems you are offering that makes it so much different is that it’s slower…. Also bud they have updated on how fast it is, they say you get your three pieces in 6 weeks. If all you did was raid in wotlk at about 30ish badges per week from raiding and most items costing 60 that adds up to…. Let’s see…. 6 weeks for 3 items lol. Weird.

I never said the badge system was perfect, but I do think it’s better.

Since you don’t seem like a person who can remember what someone else said, let alone what YOU said, I’ll have to go back to my original post to remind you about what I said.

I was making fun of the fact that they will do anything to make a ‘brand new system’ in order to say it’s new when all it is is just a more complicated, extra stepped badge system. I’m not saying this new system is god awful because I’m saying it’s literally the same thing, but more complicated. How many god damn times do I have to repeat that in order for you to get it. Do I need to have a para-educator in the room to walk you through reading?

Obviously I don't see it that way, though I will concede that on a surface level it's easy to just call this "badge gear with extra steps."

Then why in gods name are you even posting? Because that’s all I said.