Why no rotation of older raids in DF?

[Rucati]

Learning a new route through a dungeon that's never had a m+ variant before is actually interesting and engaging gameplay, doing a raid you've cleared dozens of times isn't particularly fun.

I mean season 4 of Shadowlands will have this with old raids being relevant again. Everyone I know who raids is basically already looking for other games. Nobody wants to do raids that they've already done for months on end. I mean people raided mythic Sanctum for like 8 months, now they want people to go back and do it again. Really don't blame anyone for quitting if that's the type of content they're expected to do.

It works for m+ because the dungeons will feel very different, not really because of the affixes, but just because you'll have to learn new routes and figure out the best way to get your percent and save time. It won't work for raids because it's gonna just be the same thing you've already done.

[Eurhetemec]

Learning a new route through a dungeon that's never had a m+ variant before is actually interesting and engaging gameplay, doing a raid you've cleared dozens of times isn't particularly fun.

I mean season 4 of Shadowlands will have this with old raids being relevant again. Everyone I know who raids is basically already looking for other games. Nobody wants to do raids that they've already done for months on end. I mean people raided mythic Sanctum for like 8 months, now they want people to go back and do it again. Really don't blame anyone for quitting if that's the type of content they're expected to do.

It works for m+ because the dungeons will feel very different, not really because of the affixes, but just because you'll have to learn new routes and figure out the best way to get your percent and save time. It won't work for raids because it's gonna just be the same thing you've already done.

Bolded bit seems like a completely bullshit claim, especially as literally every other MMO that involves raiding has a situation that would also upset anyone upset by this.

Whilst I can appreciate being annoyed about re-doing a raid you only did a few months ago, the OP says "older" raids, and he clearly means ones from previous expansions, and having them available in some actually-playable form, even if they didn't drop top-tier loot, would definitely be smart and helpful for the vast majority of people who play WoW, even if it somehow annoys "hardcore raiderz".

[Rucati]

Bolded bit seems like a completely bullshit claim, especially as literally every other MMO that involves raiding has a situation that would also upset anyone upset by this.

Whilst I can appreciate being annoyed about re-doing a raid you only did a few months ago, the OP says "older" raids, and he clearly means ones from previous expansions, and having them available in some actually-playable form, even if they didn't drop top-tier loot, would definitely be smart and helpful for the vast majority of people who play WoW, even if it somehow annoys "hardcore raiderz".

Not really, they'll just play League or DotA or CSGO until the next Dragonflight and skip season 4. I didn't say they were looking for a different MMO, not sure why you think that's the only genre of game that people play.

I don't think it would be particularly beneficial to anyone to have old raids be relevant. Why would anyone go do old raids if they don't drop good loot? That would be a giant waste of time. It's not like 5 man dungeons where you can blow through them in 20 minutes, an old raid would still take a couple hours for 10+ people to do. Either the loot is good enough that people feel like they need to go do it, or the loot is bad and it's completely ignored content by 99.9% of the community. If you really wanna go do old raids you can still do that, you just one shot everything inside.

[Alroxas]

Similar to rotating m+ dungeons from older expansions, why not do the same for raids?

Have you heard about SL Season 4 and the Fated affix for raids?

I feel like this alone could bring back many given the amount of nostalgia is much higher on the raids side of things.

It is but it isn't. The simplest iteration is when Blizzard brought back Molten Core for the anniversary event and did ZERO tuning and just bumped up the mobs so that they would be at the player levels. And to make it widely accessible, they put that event in the LFR but it was a shit show if you went in solo.

Ran it twice while it was up with a guild group and we said never again b/c too much effort for very low rewards.

On the flip side, if Blizzard did go back and retune those raids then that's spending resources on something that could have been spent elsewhere. And it's not really just tuning the encounters, you'll probably want them to tune to loot drops too. Far too often we see how "broken" items can be if they weren't retuned.

Case in point, Jeweled Signet of Melandrus from Court of Stars needed to be retuned when CoS was added to Legion TW M+ dungeons. The original form scaled up (via M+) was incredibly OP so it had to be changed.

How many other instances like that would be found if we could scale their effects up to current ilv?

[dragonflight10]

The content is unplayable in any meaningful sense of the word. Players have scaled beyond it. Soloing a raid instance is experiencing barely a shadow of what it used to be.

None of this content was designed to be one-use only. Keep in mind that players used to grind every single one of them for months on end. They're still doing that with current raids. They're not 'done' with them after playing it once, they like repeating this. Modernizing old content simply means there now way more to repeat, making the end game less repetitive as a result.



...and the beauty of all of this is that it's cheap. It's a cheap way of increasing the quantity of the content without compromising on the quality. The more quantity that's accessible for everyone, the easier it is for anyone to avoid any content they don't like.

yes it increases over all quantity of content
but whats the diff between you and OP ?
you laid down reasons, possibilities and how it will benefit the game

OP had the "i will only play if they add X thing" attitude which is stupid and entitled

[RemasteredClassic]

yes it increases over all quantity of content
but whats the diff between you and OP ?
you laid down reasons, possibilities and how it will benefit the game

OP had the "i will only play if they add X thing" attitude which is stupid and entitled

Ion himself said he wants to let players play how they like and that utimately, the goal is to make the entire game evergreen. What I was saying is that I am not in a hurry to buy the next expansion. If it will take a few more expansions for a true evergreen experience, then I would rather wait. This has nothing to do with being entitled, just a client/customer stating their preferences of how they would like the product to be for them to fully enjoy it.

[RemasteredClassic]

I think old raids should become queueable solo content with real loot on the level of world questing gear. Gosh that would be hilarious.

But it is blizzard. Blizzard does not understand why they should do that.

There really is no reason not to be able to queue for solo older expansion raids (all of them, not just a few LFR level ones and from a single unified queue) especially when you can do so in almost all the competitior MMO games.

We are already soloing this content, except one shotting gets old quick and is super boring and unrewarding. There is so much more enjoyment when you feel both rewarded and slightly challenged as a solo player. I would even scale them to max player level and let solo players have fun given the quantity of content variety WoW has and the richness of encounter design variety.

[Ghanir]

At this point, with getting teleported to any content available in the dungeon finder, Blizz might as well add a separate option in it purely for raid content 2 expansions back and further. This way you wouldn't have to awkwardly travel from tp-to-tp in order to get your transmog grind going.

On topic it's as everyone else have said. This concept is still being tested out and will need feedback before they consider delving deeper into it.

[MrLachyG]

I sort of agree with you OP but at the same time I don't think it should be an every week thing. What I want to see is an expansion of the Timewalking system. I think that next expansion, maybe in the .2 patch we will see the introduction of Classic TW - given that they are scaling up these dungeons for M+ it could be a sign they are considering it.

Each rotation of TW should have the standard 6 dungeons (or is it 7) which you can also rotate out but also each one should have it's own raid (most do already) that can be scaled to LFR/N/H/M; this way people will actually do them. Cause by the time a TW raid comes around, the top end raiders don't give a shit because they outgear it already and it provides no useful gear for them; the LFR crowd don't do it because there is no LFR mode and the people in between might do it once but then won't again.

it needs to only be the 1 though per event; otherwise it would lead to player burnout if a guild had to run 4+ raids on top of the current raid in order to get gear for people

[arkanon]

Because new seasons already bring new raids?

What raid is S4 bringing?

[Nymrohd]

It is but it isn't. The simplest iteration is when Blizzard brought back Molten Core for the anniversary event and did ZERO tuning and just bumped up the mobs so that they would be at the player levels. And to make it widely accessible, they put that event in the LFR but it was a shit show if you went in solo.

Ran it twice while it was up with a guild group and we said never again b/c too much effort for very low rewards.

On the flip side, if Blizzard did go back and retune those raids then that's spending resources on something that could have been spent elsewhere. And it's not really just tuning the encounters, you'll probably want them to tune to loot drops too. Far too often we see how "broken" items can be if they weren't retuned.

Case in point, Jeweled Signet of Melandrus from Court of Stars needed to be retuned when CoS was added to Legion TW M+ dungeons. The original form scaled up (via M+) was incredibly OP so it had to be changed.

How many other instances like that would be found if we could scale their effects up to current ilv?

Yeah revamping raids would mean retuning the encounters and the loot tables. It's not the same as creating an encounter from scratch ofc but still a decent amount of work. Older raids are also not up to par graphically and almost everything before Ulduar except for endbosses is not up to par when it comes to complexity either; you'd need some Season of Mastery style changes to make them somewhat challenging.

Now when it comes to special items like the Signet, I'd say they are not that problematic as long as they will be up for the entire season. Then they just become part of BiS.

[ChronoSul]

Not really, they'll just play League or DotA or CSGO until the next Dragonflight and skip season 4. I didn't say they were looking for a different MMO, not sure why you think that's the only genre of game that people play.

I don't think it would be particularly beneficial to anyone to have old raids be relevant. Why would anyone go do old raids if they don't drop good loot? That would be a giant waste of time. It's not like 5 man dungeons where you can blow through them in 20 minutes, an old raid would still take a couple hours for 10+ people to do. Either the loot is good enough that people feel like they need to go do it, or the loot is bad and it's completely ignored content by 99.9% of the community. If you really wanna go do old raids you can still do that, you just one shot everything inside.

Which is what already happens with TW raids no one does any of them besides maybe black temple for the Tmog glaives. Also explains why we didnt see a new TW raid this expansion as none of them so far have see much play UNLESS it cam out around the same time as a new raid tier

[RemasteredClassic]

Which is what already happens with TW raids no one does any of them besides maybe black temple for the Tmog glaives. Also explains why we didnt see a new TW raid this expansion as none of them so far have see much play UNLESS it cam out around the same time as a new raid tier

Problem is due to accessibility. They are not easily accessible if you force people to have to approach TW raids in the same way they do current heroic raids. I would simply keep all older expansion raids at LFR difficulty setting available through the LFR mode queue and we're talking real variety here especially when done in rotation. THAT would be amazing as an addition to current expansion LFR raids so people aren't doing the same ones all the time in the most accessible, easiest and most played raid difficulty setting. As for rewards, the usual TW currency is good enough especially if they add raid related thematic cosmetics to the TW vendors.

[Nymrohd]

Problem is due to accessibility. They are not easily accessible if you force people to have to approach TW raids in the same way they do current heroic raids. I would simply keep all older expansion raids at LFR difficulty setting available through the LFR mode queue and we're talking real variety here especially when done in rotation. THAT would be amazing as an addition to current expansion LFR raids so people aren't doing the same ones all the time in the most accessible, easiest and most played raid difficulty setting. As for rewards, the usual TW currency is good enough especially if they add raid related thematic cosmetics to the TW vendors.

So people would only be running them for badges then? Cause LFR loot has been useless for quite a while.

And is LFR really most played? I do wonder what the metrics might be. I can see running it once to see the raid and complete any quests but more than that?

But yeah, given that TW raids are only up for one week, you cannot really add a heroic difficulty (let alone a mythic one) because people would need a chance to progress on them. And the loot would still not be worthwhile. I'd love it if they could change TW to be evergreen content and some form of it be up nearly constantly and rotate much slower; if they did something like that maybe we could have TW raids that people actually run.

[BossManRoth]

I remember when this forum collectively crapped their pants over recycled content.