Mannoroth vs Lich King Arthas

[darkoms]

He was also nearly killed by a human paladin with a shiny sword when he was in the wrong spot, so out of all the flaws in the story i think this one can be excused.


As to the OP: Magicwise Mannoroth has been poorly defined, given what his blood has done to creatures worlds over i would not be surprised if he has more than a few undisclosed aces up his sleeve.

The Lich King is of course absurdly powerful, but it took a fairly "ordinary" sword infused with a piece of the light to shatter the conduit for the power that he used.

Now if Mannoroth were to rely on just his weapons in a mindless fashion, then he would lose - Gorehowl may not be all that ordinary, but it is no Frostmourne.
But Mannoroth is a lot less mortal than Arthas - he knows of the Frostmourne from Kil'jaeden, he knows that Gorehowl has defeated him.
And in terms of raw strength behind the weapon, well there Arthas is nothing close to a match for Mannoroth.
As such the fight could be quite interesting, assuming Mannoroth doesn't mindlessly run into Frostmourne.
Neither are agile fighters, but both have vast magical powers, and at a range i do not think the Lich King would have the advantage.
As to minions: Both have effectively endless armies supporting them, it would cancel out quite well, though i think Mannoroth has both the more solid long term support here (he does not need to kill to replenish) as well as the stronger quality of minions (a single strong demon is a threat to the world already, undead need their numbers), so that would not work in the Lich King's favor.

So yeah, the main factor is Mannoroth's "wisdom", which is why i would bet on the Lich King (though admittedly Mannoroth has already shown that he he is capable of learning, as we see a different tactical approach in WoD's trailer).

He was still a decent sorcerer, given that he maintained the portal and that Illidan feared Mannoroth would catch him if he sensed the teleportation.


I'm not sure the Lich King is absurdly strong if he's weaker than Lei Shen. As for weapon comparison... I don't know? A charged Doomhammer (also considered an artifact in the Legion) barely scratched Mannoroth's wing, so we don't know how well Frostmourne will perform.



As for magic, I'm not sure. The Lich King seems to be a master of ice and death, but I'm not sure if this will help against felfire and a huge demon.

[Aucald]

I edited my comment.

Also, it was other quest.

Arthas' powers as a Death Knight were draining out of him due to the wound taken by Lich King Ner'zhul when he ejected Frostmourne from the Frozen Throne, which he later gave to Arthas prior to Lordaeron's fall. This, in turn, slowly weakened Arthas - which is why Ner'zhul recalled him to Icecrown. Arthas' proximity to Icecrown gave Ner'zhul the chance to restore his powers even as Ner'zhul's own were on the verge of flickering out. So he didn't really make Arthas *more* powerful than he was as a Death Knight, but really just restored his original power for the fight with Illidan.

When Arthas dons the Helm, he becomes the embodiment of the Lich King, which is definitely a huge upgrade from just being a Death Knight.

[darkoms]

I edited my comment.

Also, it was other quest.



28:50 - Lich King gave all his powers he could to Arthas.

Considering that DK Arthas and Illidan were equal in 1v1 (Wc3:RoC Night Elf Campaign) and then Stormrage consumed the Skull of the Gul'dan and also part of power from the Eye of Sargeras it would be unwise thinking that empowered Illidan was defeated by just DK Arthas.

It wasn't maybe the strict Lich King, but he was much more than the normal DK, he received all the power Ner'zhuk could give. I think it's safe to assume that he gave him almost all the powers and kept only a small portion to survive for the moment till Arthas shattered his frozen prison. He had no other options, he had to put everything on that last card, otherwise he'd be dead nonetheless.

Yes, if I remember correctly, the book also said that Arthas was much stronger than ever, but we really have to consider that this was a heavily wounded and weakened Ner'zhul, so he couldn't give too much. Didn't Arthas sit on the throne for 5 years to restore the power lost after Illidan's attack?

[Eazy]

Arthas' powers as a Death Knight were draining out of him due to the wound taken by Lich King Ner'zhul when he ejected Frostmourne from the Frozen Throne, which he later gave to Arthas prior to Lordaeron's fall. This, in turn, slowly weakened Arthas - which is why Ner'zhul recalled him to Icecrown. Arthas' proximity to Icecrown gave Ner'zhul the chance to restore his powers even as Ner'zhul's own were on the verge of flickering out. So he didn't really make Arthas *more* powerful than he was as a Death Knight, but really just restored his original power for the fight with Illidan.

When Arthas dons the Helm, he becomes the embodiment of the Lich King, which is definitely a huge upgrade from just being a Death Knight.

I do not agree.



I explained that scenario plenty of times on this forum. It wasn't just "DK Arthas".

28:50 - Lich King gave all his powers he could to Arthas.

Considering that DK Arthas and Illidan were equal in 1v1 (Wc3:RoC Night Elf Campaign) and then Stormrage consumed the Skull of the Gul'dan and also part of power from the Eye of Sargeras it would be unwise thinking that empowered Illidan was defeated by just DK Arthas.

It wasn't maybe the strict Lich King, but he was much more than the normal DK, he received all the power Ner'zhul could give. I think it's safe to assume that he gave him almost all the powers and kept only a small portion to survive for the moment till Arthas shattered his frozen prison. He had no other options, he had to put everything on that last card, otherwise he'd be dead nonetheless.

Also page 341 Arthas: Rise of the Lich King "The energy was so powerful, it hit the head so hard.... Arthas had never experienced anything like it before.", which clearly says that he received power that was much stronger than he has ever had before.

[darkoms]

Arthas' powers as a Death Knight were draining out of him due to the wound taken by Lich King Ner'zhul when he ejected Frostmourne from the Frozen Throne, which he later gave to Arthas prior to Lordaeron's fall. This, in turn, slowly weakened Arthas - which is why Ner'zhul recalled him to Icecrown. Arthas' proximity to Icecrown gave Ner'zhul the chance to restore his powers even as Ner'zhul's own were on the verge of flickering out. So he didn't really make Arthas *more* powerful than he was as a Death Knight, but really just restored his original power for the fight with Illidan.

When Arthas dons the Helm, he becomes the embodiment of the Lich King, which is definitely a huge upgrade from just being a Death Knight.

Didn't the book say that after Ner'zhul's buff, Arthas was stronger than ever before? I definitely saw this quote, but I can't remember where

[Aucald]

I do not agree.

Also page 341 Arthas: Rise of the Lich King "The energy was so powerful, it hit the head so hard.... Arthas had never experienced anything like it before.", which clearly says that he received power that was much stronger than he has ever had before.

Didn't the book say that after Ner'zhul's buff, Arthas was stronger than ever before? I definitely saw this quote, but I can't remember where

Sure, he was at the peak of his strength as a Death Knight, perhaps a bit more given the extra oomph from Ner'zhul's exertion. But I don't think that makes him the Lich King at the moment, far from it. Ner'zhul's infusion of power brought him to the level where he could only barely contend with Illidan, as evidenced by the long and arduous fight before Arthas finally got the upper hand on his opponent. Ner'zhul also didn't have that much power left and was nearing "death" by the time Arthas arrived at the foot of the Citadel, hence the urgency of his repeated calls.

[Skirdus]

Also Arthas one shotted an entire raid party of the world's most powerful warriors (why he didn't he stroll into Stormwind/Orgrimmar and do that from the beginning of Wrath, blame the writers).

Probably because he couldn't do so unless he was at the epicenter of his power (i.e. the Frozen Throne), thus why his entire plan revolved around luring the player characters there in the first place

[loras]

He was still a decent sorcerer, given that he maintained the portal and that Illidan feared Mannoroth would catch him if he sensed the teleportation.


I'm not sure the Lich King is absurdly strong if he's weaker than Lei Shen. As for weapon comparison... I don't know? A charged Doomhammer (also considered an artifact in the Legion) barely scratched Mannoroth's wing, so we don't know how well Frostmourne will perform.



As for magic, I'm not sure. The Lich King seems to be a master of ice and death, but I'm not sure if this will help against felfire and a huge demon.

All fair points as well, really all it does is strengthen the idea that the fight would be interesting at least. ^^
Perhaps being a magic weapon would even be a disadvantage to Frostmourne vs. Mannoroth, as Gorehowl fared better than the Doomhammer as you say.

It should also be noted that they always hype *new villain* to be much stronger than *old villain*, so i don't know with how many grains of salt we should take that stuff, especially after mr. "titan++".

[Eazy]

Didn't the book say that after Ner'zhul's buff, Arthas was stronger than ever before? I definitely saw this quote, but I can't remember where

In Arthas: Rise of the Lich King by Golden.

Sure, he was at the peak of his strength as a Death Knight, perhaps a bit more given the extra oomph from Ner'zhul's exertion. But I don't think that makes him the Lich King at the moment, far from it. Ner'zhul's infusion of power brought him to the level where he could only barely contend with Illidan, as evidenced by the long and arduous fight before Arthas finally got the upper hand on his opponent. Ner'zhul also didn't have that much power left and was nearing "death" by the time Arthas arrived at the foot of the Citadel, hence the urgency of his repeated calls.

Yes, it wasn't strict Lich King, but it wasn't just a DK neither.

Good to know we got into consensus.

[ArenaDk]

Arthas vs Illidan is a weird fight. Basically Illidan wasnt serious at all, not even using his weapon in each hand, stopped using range fel fire even though arthas had no way to counter it and arthas got TWO deus ex machina strikes that were not caused by himself. And even this plot armor strikes only worked cause illidan was basicslly walking in range for no reason.

Frostmourne also cant be that powerful outside of being a soul collector device, as blizzard stated the frost dk legion weapon was more powerful than it by the end of the expansion.

If it comes down to it , can Mannoroth use fel fire on the same level as Illidan did in wc3 ? If yes, he wins. If not the next question is, can arthas magic hurt demons to avoid meele ? if not, mannoroth wins by strength.

Also the argument of Bolvar being weaker ? Who said that ? Bolvar showed far stronger fighting abilitys with the pillar throwing , and it doesnt mean arthas had the same abilities

[darkoms]

Arthas vs Illidan is a weird fight. Basically Illidan wasnt serious at all, not even using his weapon in each hand, stopped using range fel fire even though arthas had no way to counter it and arthas got TWO deus ex machina strikes that were not caused by himself. And even this plot armor strikes only worked cause illidan was basicslly walking in range for no reason.

Frostmourne also cant be that powerful outside of being a soul collector device, as blizzard stated the frost dk legion weapon was more powerful than it by the end of the expansion.

If it comes down to it , can Mannoroth use fel fire on the same level as Illidan did in wc3 ? If yes, he wins. If not the next question is, can arthas magic hurt demons to avoid meele ? if not, mannoroth wins by strength.

Also the argument of Bolvar being weaker ? Who said that ? Bolvar showed far stronger fighting abilitys with the pillar throwing , and it doesnt mean arthas had the same abilities

Metzen said that Bolvar is weaker. It was also shown in the Chronicles that Bolvar had problems controlling the undead (for example, the Val'kyrs were able to escape from him). I think it makes sense that the Lich King with Frostmourne is stronger than the Lich King without Frostmourne.

[Magical Mudcrab]

And the power received from N'zoth is now an integral part of Azshara, as well as her personal great power. I mean, while still an elf, she shattered the Pillar of Creation that was tens of thousands of miles away (or more).

I agree that N'zoth's empowerment is part of Azshara, but the problem is that it's not really been a great help to her. Even in the fight, Azshara was unable to complete the plan without taking additional power from N'zoth (i.e.: those death beams in the encounter were her drawing additional power on top of what she already had). Regarding the shattering of the Tidestone, I'm willing to grant the feat to her (although she did it on effectively on the single most powerful leyline that has ever existed in Azeroth's history), but we shouldn't exaggerate the feat. It wasn't tens of thousands of miles away, it was a few kilometers (1 league ~= 5.6 km ~= 3.5 miles).

Queen Azshara's pact with the demon lord Sargeras went mostly uncontested by her subjects. One of the few that dared to defy her was Prince Farondis.

As one of the queen's trusted advisors, Farondis was in regular contact with the Highborne of Zin-Azshari, but his palace in Azsuna was several leagues away from the elven capital. As such, he was able to witness Sargeras' influence on the Highborne court without falling sway to the demons' temptation.

- Link

Keep in mind that Farondis' palace was almost immediately beside Nar'thalas Academy.

I wouldn't say that the characters helping us were weak. I would even go so far as to say that this campaign is at least as good as helping against Archimonde (although there was also a horde of orcs and draenei, as seen in the cutscene). And we defeated Mannoroth with no help at all. Still, she was putting in some effort, wasn't she?

For Archimonde and Mannoroth, both of the encounters were skewed in our favor in one way or another. Against Mannoroth, we weren't really fighting Mannoroth until the end of the fight. The resurrection process was long and he was severely weakened until the end when his strength was restored, and he was already severely damaged at this point, so we've never really dealt with Mannoroth at full strength. Regarding Archimonde, we had a lot more help than is apparent in the fight. While we don't see the NPCs, we do see that immediately after Archimonde's downfall, Yrel, Grommash, Khadgar, and their respective armies are there (hence the cheers after "we will never be slaves"). The aid we receive with Archimonde is just really poorly conveyed.

[darkoms]

I agree that N'zoth's empowerment is part of Azshara, but the problem is that it's not really been a great help to her. Even in the fight, Azshara was unable to complete the plan without taking additional power from N'zoth (i.e.: those death beams in the encounter were her drawing additional power on top of what she already had). Regarding the shattering of the Tidestone, I'm willing to grant the feat to her (although she did it on effectively on the single most powerful leyline that has ever existed in Azeroth's history), but we shouldn't exaggerate the feat. It wasn't tens of thousands of miles away, it was a few kilometers (1 league ~= 5.6 km ~= 3.5 miles).


- Link

Keep in mind that Farondis' palace was almost immediately beside Nar'thalas Academy.



For Archimonde and Mannoroth, both of the encounters were skewed in our favor in one way or another. Against Mannoroth, we weren't really fighting Mannoroth until the end of the fight. The resurrection process was long and he was severely weakened until the end when his strength was restored, and he was already severely damaged at this point, so we've never really dealt with Mannoroth at full strength. Regarding Archimonde, we had a lot more help than is apparent in the fight. While we don't see the NPCs, we do see that immediately after Archimonde's downfall, Yrel, Grommash, Khadgar, and their respective armies are there (hence the cheers after "we will never be slaves"). The aid we receive with Archimonde is just really poorly conveyed.

Well, there were quite powerful characters against her at that moment and we don't know if it would be easier or harder for her if she was fully focused on the battle. By the way, Jaina and Thalyssra (powerful sorceresses in their own right) could not break the arcane shield around the Stone without the artifacts of Azshara herself. Hmm, I always thought they were farther apart given the location of the Maelstrom and given that the scale in the game is much smaller than in the lore.



Yes, that's literally what I said. While I don't consider the crowd of orcs and draenei to be of any significant help, maybe they were just busy with lesser demons.

[tommyhil622]

Arthas almost died due to the blight of the Forsaken. How can you put him on the level of Mannoroth!

lol imagine

[darkoms]

lol imagine

Imagine what?

[tommyhil622]

Imagine what?

If what happened at the wrath gate mattered to the comparison. Mannoroth would be affected as much as any other being. All I know the lich king would not have died to an orc and that to me is the determining factor.

[darkoms]

If what happened at the wrath gate mattered to the comparison. Mannoroth would be affected as much as any other being. All I know the lich king would not have died to an orc and that to me is the determining factor.

Do you have proof that this will affect Mannoroth?
Mannoroth never lost a battle to an orc. On the first occasion he didn't expect Grommash to attack him, on the second he was distracted by other orcs and an iron star. I mean, Arthas would have died too if he fought in exactly the same conditions.

[PsychoSe7eN]

You do know that Arthas was weaker than Illidan, right? Illidan lost only because of his overconfidence (as did Mannoroth).



Arthas won only after a long and hard battle, it was not a one-shot. Read Chronicles.

That's DK Arthas not LK Arthas. Lol.

[kaelix1]

Arthas would have died too if he fought in exactly the same conditions.

Do you have proof that this will affect Arthas?

[Unholyground]

Strategy > Power.